Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI180419B
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00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break here with guest John Ashmeade. 00:12 We really had Daniel as our guest, didn't we? 00:14 Yes. 00:15 We were invoking that great hero of Bible times 00:18 but a very important time of bible history. 00:20 People forget it. 00:22 You know, Babylon is a kingdom. 00:23 That was one of the... 00:24 Well, it was the first great kingdom 00:26 in that image that Nebuchadnezzar 00:28 was shown that includes a description of only kingdoms 00:31 right down to our present convoluted weakened... 00:34 Well, it's very strong nations with iron and of clay. 00:36 So the strongest metal of the statue 00:39 mixed with the weakest, and that's the modern world. 00:42 But at the same time, his nation, 00:44 his church was in disarray. 00:48 You know, you intercede 00:49 for Adventists in the workplace, 00:51 and some of them get satisfaction 00:54 knowing they have an organization behind them, 00:56 and you and other lawyers. 00:58 That's a certain security. 01:00 Daniel didn't have that. 01:01 His nation was in captivity or living in hovels, 01:05 the ones that were left behind back in Jerusalem. 01:07 They were finished. 01:09 So his faith was directly with God, 01:11 and yet he was empowered to respectfully deal 01:15 with the potent types of the time 01:17 who had total parallel life or death over at any moment. 01:20 Right. 01:21 I mean, I think, you know, 01:22 Daniel's life is quite a testimony of faith 01:26 when you're in a circumstance 01:28 where you can believe that God has abandoned you. 01:31 I mean, you've been taken captive in a foreign land, 01:35 and you look up now, 01:37 and you're being targeted, you know? 01:39 They want you to pledge your loyalty to the nation. 01:43 That's right. 01:44 And you understand exactly, 01:46 most people don't get it out of the story. 01:49 I remember being shocked first time 01:51 a preacher mentioned it, 01:52 but the chances are, it's almost foregone fact 01:56 that he and his friends had been neutralized, 02:00 they were eunuchs 02:02 because it was common practice to take the... 02:06 Not just the brightest but the aristocracy, 02:09 the sons and daughters of the aristocracy 02:11 of the other country, 02:12 which would denature, would take away their future. 02:15 They would be made unable to breathe 02:17 because the Babylonians 02:19 didn't want them to breathe into this stuff. 02:21 They wanted what they could give, 02:22 service and an expertise. 02:25 Oh, we never hear about a Mrs. Daniel, do we? 02:27 No. 02:28 And I have no burden to make that point, 02:30 but the point is the level of disempowerment 02:33 was incredible. 02:34 He was turned into a cog 02:36 in the machinery of another nation 02:39 to serve them. 02:40 It would seem that he was being trained 02:41 to be loyal to Babylon 02:44 and to lead his people to be loyal to Babylon as well. 02:47 And, you know, we see that happening today. 02:49 I mean, you know, 02:50 the education that we receive trains us to be loyal. 02:53 You're thinking exactly like me. 02:54 Right. 02:56 People don't realize it, it's not that 02:57 we should oppose the education system, 02:59 but it's not to train people to be God 03:00 fearing citizens of heaven, 03:03 it's to be useful functionaries 03:05 of a modern day machine of industry 03:09 and all the rest 03:10 that fit into that to serve the state needs, 03:11 secular needs. 03:13 And the pull toward compromises is overwhelming, 03:16 and it's intentional. 03:18 And, you know, when you look 03:21 at the whole situation with the statue, 03:24 and bowing down, and the worship, 03:27 you know, I wonder if we are, as a country, 03:30 heading in that direction 03:32 where we are upholding these symbols of loyalty, 03:36 you know, like the flag, the national anthem, 03:40 and we are sort of demanding that everyone accept these 03:45 in the same way under the same terms. 03:48 I wonder if we're heading that way as a country 03:50 and is that dangerous. 03:51 And the Supreme Court helped us a little to fight it, 03:54 but, you know, the pledge of allegiance, 03:55 which is a fine thing. 03:57 But from the... 03:59 Was it 1950-some on, 04:02 they mixed God into the deal. 04:06 So it's the state talismans and religion, and you're... 04:10 It's all one and the same, 04:12 loyalty to this country is loyalty to God. 04:13 Well, maybe not, 04:15 but it's claiming that it is, and this is, 04:17 you know, 04:18 I've preached a number of times on the plains of Dura, 04:20 there with the statue and the fire and all those. 04:23 And Nebuchadnezzar says, "You know, 04:25 why don't you bow down 04:26 and worship my image and my Gods?" 04:29 He mixed both in. 04:31 It clearly was a status symbol and a religious symbol, 04:34 and one was the same as the other. 04:38 The state's not inclined to be religious, 04:40 but it likes to have sanctimony around, it's, 04:44 you know, the eagle and always... 04:46 We're not different from the Romans, 04:48 we parade and stand it on the... 04:49 you know, you genuflect before it. 04:52 We got to... 04:53 not so much resist but be aware of this 04:56 and keep our ultimate loyalty in mind. 04:58 You know, I think the important thing 05:00 under these circumstances, 05:02 look, you should be free if you want to engage 05:04 and embrace these ideas. 05:06 But if you choose not to go with the flow, 05:09 to run with the crowd, 05:11 that you don't suffer persecution for that, 05:13 I think that's a mature nation, a mature democracy, 05:17 where people can protest when they see the need to, 05:21 when they feel like they want to make a point 05:23 or if they just simply don't want to do it, 05:26 you know? 05:28 Yeah, I've thought about this a lot, 05:29 with necessity in this job. 05:32 That sounds good, 05:33 and the US has embraced that from the beginning. 05:36 But if you are a rational secular leader, 05:40 it's not self-evident that 05:42 that's the good of keeping a country together. 05:47 And what I think it feeds toward 05:49 which Jefferson and others saw, 05:51 Jefferson more than most, 05:53 it allows rebellion in an essence to flourish. 05:57 Jefferson just thought that was great 05:59 because you let it reveal itself 06:00 and then you stop at that now and... 06:02 But if you're really after continuing stable society, 06:06 it's not the greatest thing to allow dissidents 06:08 to develop or even what we argue 06:10 for internationally, multiple religious allegiances 06:13 because they all, at the very least, 06:15 bleed away monolithic support for the state, 06:19 which more and more people want to support. 06:21 You know, the basic protest 06:22 is sort of a check on government power. 06:25 You know, the fact that... 06:27 If you want to check government power, 06:28 no government wants to be checked. 06:29 But it's important, you know, 06:32 for people to be able to stand up 06:34 in protest and say, "No, you've gone too far, 06:37 we want to bring this to your attention. 06:38 It's time to turn back from the direction 06:40 where you're going." 06:41 And I think that's a vital part of a healthy nation. 06:45 And if we stamp that out, 06:47 if we prevent that from happening, 06:49 it's a real threat to freedom. 06:50 I agree with you. 06:52 In the philosophical sense, my point is, no government, 06:53 even a democratic government, 06:55 in the sense of those governing 06:56 and the ones in the system are happy with that, 06:59 they inherently resist it. 07:01 Oh, they do. They do. 07:02 And religion has always been a powerful dissonance 07:07 towards the systems. 07:08 Right. 07:09 I think, you know, there is always that tension 07:11 between religion and the state in the sense 07:14 that, you know, many religious people, 07:16 their first loyalty is to God and not to the state. 07:20 And so if you go in with that mindset, 07:23 you know, whenever the state enacts a law 07:26 or, you know, wants you to act in a certain way 07:28 that's certainly inconsistent with your religious practice, 07:32 then you have that tension. 07:34 And then you have that pull, 07:35 and you don't have the loyalty that the state often wants. 07:38 Back to Daniel, where do we see that tension? 07:42 Of course, it's a narrative, and not many words, 07:46 maybe there's a lot unspoken. 07:47 But there's not much. 07:49 The only time I remember 07:50 he seemed a little on it 07:52 justifiably was when the word went out to all, 07:55 the wise men would have been killed. 07:57 Daniel begged for time, and then spent the not praying, 08:00 and he got the answer. 08:01 Beyond that, he seemed to be serene in any situation. 08:05 You know, he seemed to want to be a good citizen, 08:09 and to fit in, and to support the state. 08:12 But, you know, I think whenever the state crossed the line, 08:16 he was willing to bear the consequences. 08:18 Well, the story at the end of the book 08:21 is amazing with Belshazzar's feast. 08:25 That was one occasion Daniel didn't mince words 08:28 'cause they weren't his words, 08:30 but still he could have soften the writing on the wall. 08:32 But he says, instead, you kingdom is... 08:34 "You are weighed in the balance 08:36 as your kingdom is found wanting." 08:37 Right. 08:38 It's quite a contrast between his interaction 08:40 with Belteshazzar and Nebuchadnezzar. 08:42 There was a degree of respect 08:44 with Nebuchadnezzar that was not shown. 08:46 And clearly Daniel 08:47 realized that the state had gone too far, 08:50 had crossed the line, 08:51 and he had to take a firm stand and to be bold. 08:54 And I think that we should look at that example, 08:59 you know, that there are times 09:00 we don't have to always be protesting, 09:02 but there's a time 09:03 when the state crosses the line, 09:05 and we've got to be bold in our condemnation 09:07 of what's taking place around us. 09:08 Absolutely. 09:10 You've given the takeaway from this program two minutes early. 09:16 But no, I believe it's not just a kid's song or a kid's story. 09:21 Daniel does speak to today of the complication 09:25 that serving the state brings in more and more, 09:28 you know, wanted or not in modern societies, 09:31 we can easily opt out. 09:33 We're part of the mesh of responsibility. 09:37 But here's what I'll also point out. 09:39 And, you know, it just talks 09:41 about our relationship with God. 09:43 I mean, Daniel was taken captive 09:46 and lived in Babylon 09:48 and lived in Babylon all of his life. 09:50 There's no indication from the story 09:52 that he was ever able to return to Jerusalem. 09:56 And yet, despite that, 09:58 he lived under an oppressive regime. 10:01 For several year. 10:02 And yet under those circumstances, 10:04 he remained faithful to God. 10:06 And that's quite a testimony to us that, 10:08 you know, 10:10 just by the oppression that we're facing, 10:12 the challenges that we're dealing with, 10:13 God expects us to rise under any circumstance 10:17 that we find ourselves in. 10:18 He went from the bottom all the way 10:19 to the top in government 10:21 despite living in an oppressive system. 10:23 I think that we should do that as Christians. 10:26 With few exceptions, integrity is recognized 10:29 even in a communist regime or dictatorship. 10:32 They need people of integrity, they don't need traitors. 10:35 But a Christian shouldn't be a traitor to any system. 10:38 That's worth remembering 10:39 No, I think Daniel is someone that we should admire, 10:42 we should emulate, 10:45 you know, he survived in an oppressive system 10:49 and excelled. 10:54 Psalms 137 has the captives in Babylon 10:59 but wailing their fate saying that, 11:01 "By the rivers of Babylon, 11:02 we sat down, 11:04 and they that brought us there in captivity 11:07 required of us a song." 11:09 And then dramatically, they asked the question, 11:11 "How can we sing the Lord's song 11:13 in a strange land?" 11:15 The story of Babylon and Daniel is quite an amazing one. 11:20 You can read it in the book of Daniel. 11:23 But in my view, we today are in the same position. 11:27 All Christians should see themselves 11:29 as in a strange land. 11:31 This is not our home. 11:34 And the trick, the challenge, 11:36 the duty before us 11:39 is how do we stand for the Lord, 11:41 sing the song through our life, 11:43 a song that will attract other people 11:44 by its melody 11:46 and its compelling pattern of consistency to God. 11:50 How can we sing that, attract other people, 11:52 live a life of character 11:55 that will be not just sung about 11:57 but celebrated through the centuries. 12:00 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2019-01-21