Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI180419A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is your program that brings news, 00:30 views, discussion, insight into religious liberty events 00:34 in the US and around the world. 00:36 My name is Lincoln Steed, 00:37 and I'm editor of Liberty Magazine, 00:40 a magazine of 100 years success 00:43 in presenting religious freedom 00:44 from separation of church and state viewpoint. 00:48 My guest on this program, John Ashmeade, 00:50 Attorney and Associate Director of the General... 00:54 Not the General Conference, 00:56 I mean, church hierarchy, but you've worked 00:57 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church 01:00 in the Atlantic Union area 01:02 of North-Eastern US for the public affairs 01:05 and religious liberty department. 01:06 Right. 01:09 I'd love to get back to Bible stories, 01:11 and I really want to spend this time 01:13 going back a few centuries, 01:15 but I'll pick up with something right now. 01:16 There's a public official Seventh-day Adventist, 01:19 I don't really want to name him 01:21 just out of consideration to him, 01:23 but he's well-placed in the US government, 01:26 an appointed position for life. 01:29 And right at the center of things, 01:31 I often see him on television, major events, 01:34 and talking to him in private, he said a number of times 01:37 that he believes that he's like Daniel 01:40 placed in the king's palace for momentous time. 01:43 And I'm quite sure that he's right on the money. 01:48 You know, when I was a kid, we used to sing, 01:49 "Dare to be Daniel. 01:51 Dare to stand, you know, to a purpose true." 01:55 And going back to Daniel at a point 01:57 when his nation was basically destroyed, 01:59 he was in a foreign land and yet privileged, 02:03 not so much by anyone's gift to him, 02:05 but by his stance for his Lord and the diet 02:09 and went with him and so on. 02:11 He was there on the inner circle. 02:13 There's some lessons to learn 02:14 from how he behaved in that context 02:16 and how we might today. 02:18 Sure, you know, 02:20 can I share a quick story about my son? 02:21 Absolutely, that's what we're here for, 02:23 even a long story. 02:24 I know, about my son, you know, 02:26 when he was in the second grade, 02:28 a debate developed in his class 02:32 regarding creation and evolution. 02:34 And, you know, fortunately, it made me happy. 02:38 Is this a secular public school? 02:39 It's a private school, it's a secular school, 02:41 but it's not a public school. 02:42 And, you know, this debate developed, 02:45 it was intense, he took the side of creation, 02:47 his classmates took the side of evolution. 02:50 And they went back and forth for a few weeks, 02:54 and it became really intense to the point 02:57 where, you know, his classmates sort of excluded him. 03:01 He was sort of on an island by himself, 03:04 you know, advocating for what he thought to be true. 03:07 And the discussion was so intense 03:08 that the teacher ultimately had to tell them 03:11 no more discussion on this issue. 03:13 But he wouldn't give it. He would not give in. 03:15 He's stuck to his guns, 03:17 and I was very proud of him that he took a stand 03:20 for something that he believed in. 03:21 And that's, you know, when I think of Daniel, 03:25 that's what comes to mind as well. 03:27 Yeah, I mean, it's easy to read Daniel, 03:28 and, you know, amazing providential successes. 03:31 It's not just with him, with his friends 03:33 delivered from the fiery furnace, 03:34 Daniel from the lions. 03:37 And I'm sure those lions were hungry 03:39 that the whole point of keeping lions in the den. 03:42 They weren't fed much except for an occasional trader. 03:47 But it's easy to think, you know, 03:49 God was going to protect them and so on. 03:51 But going into that situation, it was a pretty dark, 03:56 non-promising, you know, 03:57 Daniel had faith. 03:58 But faith is without evidence. 04:00 It's just an internal, deeply seated hope 04:04 that God's going to help you see this thing through. 04:08 And, you know, we're the same now, 04:10 we don't really know. 04:11 And well, in your son's case, 04:13 he probably didn't even anticipate 04:15 the level of opposition. 04:16 Right. Right. 04:17 He just acted innocently on what he believed in. 04:20 I imagine it was a shock. 04:22 And many people, 04:24 unfortunately, many Christians, when they get some opposition, 04:27 fight back, either emotionally 04:29 or they don't even seem to have, 04:32 which is their own fault, enough text or enough belief, 04:35 facts of belief to sort of counter them. 04:38 I remember... 04:39 Let me tell a story now, 04:41 which is a bit of a tale on Adventism, 04:43 but I think it proves the point. 04:45 When I was in my teens, I remember we were all excited 04:49 because one of the major leaders of our church 04:51 was to appear on the Joe Pyne show. 04:54 Nobody except people a lot older than me 04:56 will remember Joe Pyne. 04:58 But he was a talk show host. Okay. 05:03 Very sharp, with a sharp tongue, 05:05 then he would get people on... 05:06 I don't know why anyone ever went to the show 05:08 except that he was national 05:09 and he would rip them to shreds. 05:11 And so this theologian 05:14 and administrator of the church, 05:15 very well published, and well-traveled, and admired, 05:21 he had to appear on the show. 05:22 He was actually an Australian, but based at the headquarters. 05:26 And I remember sitting back with everyone else, 05:28 and this is going to be great. 05:30 Within maybe less than a minute, 05:32 Joe Pyne had started mocking him and nailed him. 05:35 And the guest goes... 05:37 He didn't have any answer. 05:38 And, you know, who am I to question his spiritually? 05:40 I hope and presume he'll be, you know, 05:43 playing the harps with everybody else in heaven. 05:45 But I know he was not prepared. 05:47 He clearly had no experience or even anticipation 05:51 what a non-believer would say. 05:53 He was just slashing away in his faith. 05:55 And I think that's something that... 05:58 Anyone of any belief, 05:59 but particularly a Christian owes it to themselves. 06:01 You know, know what you believe, 06:02 why you believe it. 06:04 Be prepared to answer someone who's cynical, 06:08 and mocking, and all the rest. 06:09 Right, I think the key thing, 06:11 you know, for a Christian believer 06:13 is to be consistent in your practice of your faith. 06:18 You know, if you say that you're a Sabbath observer, 06:22 then you should always be seen observing Sabbath. 06:24 You know this very well from interceding legally 06:27 for people in the workplace. 06:29 If they're inconsistent, 06:30 the game's almost lost before it begins. 06:32 It makes it very difficult to defend. 06:33 I mean, you need to be, 06:36 you know, consistent with what you believe, 06:39 that's very important. 06:40 You know, one of the things when I think about Daniel, 06:44 it's the story in chapter 6 of Daniel 06:47 when he's dealing with the lions den. 06:50 But, you know, 06:51 those in government with him colluded against him. 06:55 And, you know, 06:56 they got the king to pass a law. 06:59 Now the thing... Tricked the king. 07:00 They tricked the king to pass a law. 07:02 But the thing about that law 07:04 that the Bible talks about that I find intriguing 07:06 and somewhat relevant to our times 07:09 is that once he signed that law, 07:12 it was irreversible. 07:14 The law could not be changed. 07:17 And you know, 07:18 and we see the injustice that such a law worked. 07:21 And I wonder in our society, you know, 07:24 if we interpret the constitution in that way, 07:27 you know, as a document that's not living, 07:30 that doesn't take into account the human condition. 07:32 Uh-oh, uh-oh, you've used the wrong, 07:34 you know, proponents of the living constitution. 07:36 But I wonder, you know, 07:40 if we take that sort of mindset, 07:42 we see the outcome for Daniel, 07:44 he ended up in the lion's den. 07:45 Well, there's a quote to that, 07:47 I put on the back of Liberty recently, 07:48 and it's hardly anyone seems to be aware of it. 07:52 Thomas Jefferson, writing about the constitution, 07:55 says many slightly... 07:58 I'm trying to remember the exact words, 08:00 but he says "You know, many look at the constitution 08:02 as holy written that you can't change it." 08:05 And he says, you know, what nonsense, he says, 08:07 "You might as well ask a man to wear the clothes 08:09 that he wore when he was a child 08:11 as to wear when he's an adult." 08:12 He says we did well, he says, 08:14 we deserve well of our country. 08:16 But the idea that we knew everything is nonsense. 08:18 He says, "I'm not for the quick and light 08:22 constitutional adjustment." 08:24 But he said, "Of course it's not locked in stern." 08:26 What we certainly need to be mindful of precedent. 08:28 We certainly need to know 08:30 what those who drafted the constitution believed 08:32 and try to be faithful to their intentions. 08:36 But to take a wouldn't sort of, you know, 08:39 we have to view this exactly the same way 08:43 when we now live in a modern world 08:45 that they could never have anticipated 08:46 makes no sense to it. 08:48 And anyone that... 08:49 Most people haven't read 08:50 the constitution outside of laws, 08:52 maybe religious liberty activists, 08:53 but, you know, the constitution 08:55 embraced denial of vote for women, 08:57 denial of vote and also to African Americans, 09:01 and, of course, the perpetuation of slavery. 09:04 It includes wacky things like it actually sets dollar limit 09:08 to lawsuits as I remember. 09:10 What is it, $10 or something? 09:12 That part of it, I don't remember. 09:13 But yes, yeah. Yes, it's there. 09:15 And, you know, it goes on and on, 09:19 it's clearly a product of its time. 09:20 And it's shown that we know that you have to move on 09:24 because the amendments did away with some of those things. 09:27 At some point, you know, 09:28 we've had to amend the constitution 09:30 because, you know, clearly our founders 09:32 didn't quite get it right in some areas, 09:34 and so amendment was necessary, and we know 09:36 that it's very difficult to amend the constitution, 09:40 but there are times where that needs to be done. 09:42 That's fine, they purposely made it difficult, 09:43 which is a break on just flipping stuff, 09:46 you know, the trend of the time and the clamor of the people, 09:49 they were very troubled by the clamor of the people. 09:52 They wanted to represent the people 09:54 but not respond to the people's whims and whimsies. 09:57 Right. 09:58 And I think that's the genius of the system. 10:00 Absolutely, in that regard, I think it's extraordinary. 10:04 But it arose from the suspicion of the people. 10:08 And we don't really know how to... 10:10 Getting back to Daniel, there's not great evidence 10:13 that he was aware of the duplicity 10:14 of his fellow rulers who went to the kings, 10:18 but he didn't seem 10:20 to trouble himself much with that. 10:22 But I think his action, ultimately by, you know, 10:25 praying in his window facing Jerusalem, 10:29 I think that suggested 10:30 that he understood what was going on. 10:31 Well, he wasn't going to be coward. 10:33 He understood what was going on, 10:34 and he was going to take a stand, you know, 10:36 this was not his first time at the rodeo. 10:39 I mean, he dealt with this when he was, 10:41 you know, a young man in Babylon. 10:43 Let me throw in a real world application, 10:45 let's see what you'd say. 10:47 The Seventh-day Adventist Church used to, 10:51 in a major way, once you go around 10:53 and raise money in gathering appeals, 10:58 go door-to-door asking for help. 11:00 And what we were doing 11:01 to help other people's remission endeavors, 11:03 but more than just that, 11:05 just charity toward poor people and so on. 11:08 And we offered them to help. 11:10 We raised over the years many millions on that. 11:12 The lowest added to change in different towns, 11:15 it became illegal to even go door-to-door 11:18 and much less talk about religion 11:20 and ask for money. 11:22 And I was on the committee, 11:24 I used to write some of the material for this. 11:26 And I saw that in many areas, we stopped doing it 11:30 because the law said we should stop doing something 11:32 that was admirably good, no threat to anyone. 11:36 And it remained to the Jehovah's Witnesses 11:38 to take that course to the Supreme Court 11:41 and uphold their right to do that. 11:44 But we were pulling back. 11:46 Now it's a phenomenon that troubles me. 11:49 In different countries, even in this country, 11:52 US at different times, there's been laws 11:54 that would inhibit your reaching out, witnessing, 11:56 speaking to other people about your faith. 11:58 Do you just respond to those laws 12:00 and shrink back 'cause the natural end of that 12:02 is you'll be within four walls, essentially a prison, 12:06 not free to reach out and do anything. 12:08 Where do you resist not to be a law-breaker 12:11 but in the sense of do what you're called do 12:14 in this higher calling regardless of the consequence. 12:16 And that's what Daniel had to face, 12:18 and you're right, I'll still pray. 12:20 You know, this is what I'd do. 12:22 Why should I be afraid of any consequence 12:24 'cause I'm only doing what God's asked me to do? 12:27 You know, I think far too often, 12:30 our church members don't realize that. 12:31 And so when they're facing Sabbath accommodation issues, 12:35 you know, instead of standing up, 12:36 instead of pressing forward, 12:39 instead of filing an action with, 12:41 you know, the employment agencies 12:44 to defend their rights, 12:46 they shrink away and they move on, 12:48 and that impacts all of us. 12:50 You know, if they refuse to take a stand, 12:52 that emboldens employers to continue 12:55 to act in the same way and to keep pushing 12:57 so that, you know, we're pushed out of that area, 13:00 that marketplace, and so it's very important 13:02 for us to be willing to stand 13:04 and to take a firm stand to say, 13:05 "No, this is the right way. 13:07 The law protects me, and it's not a bad thing for me 13:10 to initiate a lawsuit under the circumstances 13:12 to just stand for the rights of all." 13:15 You know, I'm not advocating 13:17 law breaking at all structurally. 13:20 But it's not just working within laws, 13:23 I think it's doing the right thing 13:25 regardless of the consequence, 13:27 which sometimes might entangle you 13:29 with either inadvertently compromising laws 13:34 or another occasions laws like this one with Daniel, 13:36 designed to thwarters. 13:39 And you well know, as a lawyer, there's some laws 13:42 that don't appear necessarily to be on religion 13:45 or restricting religious practice, 13:47 but they may be designed by some clever legislator 13:51 to do exactly that. 13:54 In fact, well, 13:57 there's elements of that even in the Johnson Amendment 14:00 I think, which is much debated... 14:04 Not debated, it's much discussed of late, 14:07 and intended to be revoked by this administration. 14:11 I think this is a good time to take a break. 14:13 So stay with us, and we'll be back very shortly 14:16 to continue this discussion of Daniel 14:19 then and Daniel's now. 14:20 Okay. |
Revised 2019-01-21