Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:00:26.22\00:00:28.02
This is your
program that brings news,
00:00:28.06\00:00:30.43
views, discussion, insight
into religious liberty events
00:00:30.46\00:00:34.36
in the US and around the world.
00:00:34.40\00:00:36.30
My name is Lincoln Steed,
00:00:36.33\00:00:37.87
and I'm editor
of Liberty Magazine,
00:00:37.90\00:00:40.10
a magazine of 100 years success
00:00:40.14\00:00:42.97
in presenting religious freedom
00:00:43.00\00:00:44.51
from separation of
church and state viewpoint.
00:00:44.54\00:00:48.34
My guest on this
program, John Ashmeade,
00:00:48.38\00:00:50.85
Attorney and Associate
Director of the General...
00:00:50.88\00:00:54.92
Not the General Conference,
00:00:54.95\00:00:56.28
I mean, church
hierarchy, but you've worked
00:00:56.32\00:00:57.85
for the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
00:00:57.89\00:01:00.02
in the Atlantic Union area
00:01:00.06\00:01:02.39
of North-Eastern US
for the public affairs
00:01:02.42\00:01:05.06
and religious
liberty department.
00:01:05.09\00:01:06.59
Right.
00:01:06.63\00:01:09.06
I'd love to get
back to Bible stories,
00:01:09.10\00:01:11.00
and I really want
to spend this time
00:01:11.03\00:01:13.17
going back a few centuries,
00:01:13.20\00:01:15.20
but I'll pick up
with something right now.
00:01:15.24\00:01:16.91
There's a public
official Seventh-day Adventist,
00:01:16.94\00:01:19.67
I don't really want to name him
00:01:19.71\00:01:21.54
just out of
consideration to him,
00:01:21.58\00:01:23.28
but he's well-placed
in the US government,
00:01:23.31\00:01:26.92
an appointed position for life.
00:01:26.95\00:01:29.38
And right at the
center of things,
00:01:29.42\00:01:31.42
I often see him on
television, major events,
00:01:31.45\00:01:34.32
and talking to him in private,
he said a number of times
00:01:34.36\00:01:37.06
that he believes
that he's like Daniel
00:01:37.09\00:01:40.26
placed in the king's
palace for momentous time.
00:01:40.30\00:01:43.93
And I'm quite sure that
he's right on the money.
00:01:43.97\00:01:48.14
You know, when I was
a kid, we used to sing,
00:01:48.17\00:01:49.64
"Dare to be Daniel.
00:01:49.67\00:01:51.01
Dare to stand, you
know, to a purpose true."
00:01:51.04\00:01:55.04
And going back
to Daniel at a point
00:01:55.08\00:01:57.45
when his nation was
basically destroyed,
00:01:57.48\00:01:59.88
he was in a foreign
land and yet privileged,
00:01:59.91\00:02:03.95
not so much by
anyone's gift to him,
00:02:03.99\00:02:05.75
but by his stance
for his Lord and the diet
00:02:05.79\00:02:09.62
and went with him and so on.
00:02:09.66\00:02:11.06
He was there on
the inner circle.
00:02:11.09\00:02:13.56
There's some lessons to learn
00:02:13.60\00:02:14.93
from how he
behaved in that context
00:02:14.96\00:02:16.90
and how we might today.
00:02:16.93\00:02:18.93
Sure, you know,
00:02:18.97\00:02:20.30
can I share a
quick story about my son?
00:02:20.34\00:02:21.67
Absolutely, that's
what we're here for,
00:02:21.70\00:02:23.20
even a long story.
00:02:23.24\00:02:24.57
I know, about my son, you know,
00:02:24.61\00:02:26.57
when he was in the second grade,
00:02:26.61\00:02:28.64
a debate developed in his class
00:02:28.68\00:02:32.21
regarding
creation and evolution.
00:02:32.25\00:02:34.92
And, you know,
fortunately, it made me happy.
00:02:34.95\00:02:38.12
Is this a secular public school?
00:02:38.15\00:02:39.49
It's a private
school, it's a secular school,
00:02:39.52\00:02:41.39
but it's not a public school.
00:02:41.42\00:02:42.96
And, you know,
this debate developed,
00:02:42.99\00:02:45.19
it was intense, he
took the side of creation,
00:02:45.23\00:02:47.66
his classmates took
the side of evolution.
00:02:47.70\00:02:50.37
And they went back
and forth for a few weeks,
00:02:50.40\00:02:54.04
and it became
really intense to the point
00:02:54.07\00:02:57.01
where, you know, his
classmates sort of excluded him.
00:02:57.04\00:03:01.31
He was sort of on
an island by himself,
00:03:01.34\00:03:04.31
you know, advocating for
what he thought to be true.
00:03:04.35\00:03:07.15
And the
discussion was so intense
00:03:07.18\00:03:08.62
that the teacher
ultimately had to tell them
00:03:08.65\00:03:11.19
no more
discussion on this issue.
00:03:11.22\00:03:13.19
But he wouldn't give
it. He would not give in.
00:03:13.22\00:03:15.86
He's stuck to his guns,
00:03:15.89\00:03:17.66
and I was very proud of
him that he took a stand
00:03:17.69\00:03:20.00
for something
that he believed in.
00:03:20.03\00:03:21.36
And that's, you know,
when I think of Daniel,
00:03:21.40\00:03:25.13
that's what
comes to mind as well.
00:03:25.17\00:03:27.10
Yeah, I mean, it's
easy to read Daniel,
00:03:27.14\00:03:28.70
and, you know, amazing
providential successes.
00:03:28.74\00:03:31.57
It's not just with
him, with his friends
00:03:31.61\00:03:33.14
delivered from
the fiery furnace,
00:03:33.17\00:03:34.74
Daniel from the lions.
00:03:34.78\00:03:37.25
And I'm sure
those lions were hungry
00:03:37.28\00:03:39.21
that the whole point of
keeping lions in the den.
00:03:39.25\00:03:42.28
They weren't fed much
except for an occasional trader.
00:03:42.32\00:03:47.26
But it's easy
to think, you know,
00:03:47.29\00:03:49.96
God was going to
protect them and so on.
00:03:49.99\00:03:51.39
But going into that
situation, it was a pretty dark,
00:03:51.43\00:03:55.96
non-promising, you know,
00:03:56.00\00:03:57.40
Daniel had faith.
00:03:57.43\00:03:58.77
But faith is without evidence.
00:03:58.80\00:04:00.80
It's just an
internal, deeply seated hope
00:04:00.84\00:04:04.07
that God's going to help
you see this thing through.
00:04:04.11\00:04:08.74
And, you know,
we're the same now,
00:04:08.78\00:04:10.11
we don't really know.
00:04:10.15\00:04:11.48
And well, in your son's case,
00:04:11.51\00:04:13.58
he probably
didn't even anticipate
00:04:13.62\00:04:15.08
the level of opposition.
00:04:15.12\00:04:16.45
Right. Right.
00:04:16.48\00:04:17.82
He just acted innocently
on what he believed in.
00:04:17.85\00:04:20.52
I imagine it was a shock.
00:04:20.56\00:04:22.46
And many people,
00:04:22.49\00:04:24.33
unfortunately, many Christians,
when they get some opposition,
00:04:24.36\00:04:27.20
fight back, either emotionally
00:04:27.23\00:04:29.90
or they don't even seem to have,
00:04:29.93\00:04:32.17
which is their own fault,
enough text or enough belief,
00:04:32.20\00:04:35.10
facts of belief to
sort of counter them.
00:04:35.14\00:04:38.37
I remember...
00:04:38.41\00:04:39.74
Let me tell a story now,
00:04:39.77\00:04:41.11
which is a bit of
a tale on Adventism,
00:04:41.14\00:04:43.11
but I think it proves the point.
00:04:43.14\00:04:45.71
When I was in my teens, I
remember we were all excited
00:04:45.75\00:04:49.45
because one of the
major leaders of our church
00:04:49.48\00:04:51.89
was to appear on
the Joe Pyne show.
00:04:51.92\00:04:54.26
Nobody except
people a lot older than me
00:04:54.29\00:04:56.66
will remember Joe Pyne.
00:04:56.69\00:04:58.59
But he was a
talk show host. Okay.
00:04:58.63\00:05:03.33
Very sharp, with a sharp tongue,
00:05:03.37\00:05:05.23
then he would get people on...
00:05:05.27\00:05:06.67
I don't know why
anyone ever went to the show
00:05:06.70\00:05:08.34
except that he was national
00:05:08.37\00:05:09.70
and he would rip them to shreds.
00:05:09.74\00:05:11.27
And so this theologian
00:05:11.31\00:05:14.21
and administrator of the church,
00:05:14.24\00:05:15.71
very well published, and
well-traveled, and admired,
00:05:15.74\00:05:21.58
he had to appear on the show.
00:05:21.62\00:05:22.95
He was actually an Australian,
but based at the headquarters.
00:05:22.98\00:05:26.49
And I remember sitting
back with everyone else,
00:05:26.52\00:05:28.26
and this is going to be great.
00:05:28.29\00:05:30.13
Within maybe less than a minute,
00:05:30.16\00:05:32.56
Joe Pyne had started
mocking him and nailed him.
00:05:32.59\00:05:35.63
And the guest goes...
00:05:35.66\00:05:37.30
He didn't have any answer.
00:05:37.33\00:05:38.67
And, you know, who am I
to question his spiritually?
00:05:38.70\00:05:40.84
I hope and presume
he'll be, you know,
00:05:40.87\00:05:43.51
playing the harps with
everybody else in heaven.
00:05:43.54\00:05:45.34
But I know he was not prepared.
00:05:45.37\00:05:47.14
He clearly had no
experience or even anticipation
00:05:47.18\00:05:51.45
what a non-believer would say.
00:05:51.48\00:05:53.31
He was just
slashing away in his faith.
00:05:53.35\00:05:55.62
And I think
that's something that...
00:05:55.65\00:05:58.12
Anyone of any belief,
00:05:58.15\00:05:59.49
but particularly a
Christian owes it to themselves.
00:05:59.52\00:06:01.59
You know, know what you believe,
00:06:01.62\00:06:02.96
why you believe it.
00:06:02.99\00:06:04.33
Be prepared to answer
someone who's cynical,
00:06:04.36\00:06:08.36
and mocking, and all the rest.
00:06:08.40\00:06:09.73
Right, I think the key thing,
00:06:09.76\00:06:11.57
you know, for a
Christian believer
00:06:11.60\00:06:13.94
is to be consistent in
your practice of your faith.
00:06:13.97\00:06:18.11
You know, if you say that
you're a Sabbath observer,
00:06:18.14\00:06:22.61
then you should always
be seen observing Sabbath.
00:06:22.64\00:06:24.91
You know this very well
from interceding legally
00:06:24.95\00:06:27.55
for people in the workplace.
00:06:27.58\00:06:29.32
If they're inconsistent,
00:06:29.35\00:06:30.69
the game's almost
lost before it begins.
00:06:30.72\00:06:32.32
It makes it very
difficult to defend.
00:06:32.35\00:06:33.96
I mean, you need to be,
00:06:33.99\00:06:36.09
you know, consistent
with what you believe,
00:06:36.12\00:06:39.13
that's very important.
00:06:39.16\00:06:40.50
You know, one of the things
when I think about Daniel,
00:06:40.53\00:06:44.87
it's the story in
chapter 6 of Daniel
00:06:44.90\00:06:47.67
when he's dealing
with the lions den.
00:06:47.70\00:06:50.24
But, you know,
00:06:50.27\00:06:51.77
those in government with
him colluded against him.
00:06:51.81\00:06:55.21
And, you know,
00:06:55.24\00:06:56.58
they got the king to pass a law.
00:06:56.61\00:06:59.28
Now the thing...
Tricked the king.
00:06:59.31\00:07:00.85
They tricked the
king to pass a law.
00:07:00.88\00:07:02.55
But the thing about that law
00:07:02.58\00:07:03.99
that the Bible talks
about that I find intriguing
00:07:04.02\00:07:06.39
and somewhat
relevant to our times
00:07:06.42\00:07:09.66
is that once he signed that law,
00:07:09.69\00:07:12.66
it was irreversible.
00:07:12.69\00:07:14.06
The law could not be changed.
00:07:14.10\00:07:17.10
And you know,
00:07:17.13\00:07:18.47
and we see the injustice
that such a law worked.
00:07:18.50\00:07:21.77
And I wonder in
our society, you know,
00:07:21.80\00:07:24.57
if we interpret the
constitution in that way,
00:07:24.61\00:07:27.61
you know, as a
document that's not living,
00:07:27.64\00:07:30.91
that doesn't take into
account the human condition.
00:07:30.95\00:07:32.88
Uh-oh, uh-oh,
you've used the wrong,
00:07:32.91\00:07:34.38
you know, proponents of
the living constitution.
00:07:34.42\00:07:36.72
But I wonder, you know,
00:07:36.75\00:07:40.39
if we take that sort of mindset,
00:07:40.42\00:07:42.76
we see the outcome for Daniel,
00:07:42.79\00:07:44.19
he ended up in the lion's den.
00:07:44.23\00:07:45.59
Well, there's a quote to that,
00:07:45.63\00:07:46.96
I put on the back
of Liberty recently,
00:07:47.00\00:07:48.53
and it's hardly anyone
seems to be aware of it.
00:07:48.56\00:07:52.63
Thomas Jefferson,
writing about the constitution,
00:07:52.67\00:07:54.97
says many slightly...
00:07:55.00\00:07:58.71
I'm trying to
remember the exact words,
00:07:58.74\00:08:00.08
but he says "You know,
many look at the constitution
00:08:00.11\00:08:02.44
as holy written that
you can't change it."
00:08:02.48\00:08:05.75
And he says, you know,
what nonsense, he says,
00:08:05.78\00:08:07.38
"You might as well ask
a man to wear the clothes
00:08:07.42\00:08:09.78
that he wore when he was a child
00:08:09.82\00:08:11.32
as to wear when he's an adult."
00:08:11.35\00:08:12.82
He says we did well, he says,
00:08:12.85\00:08:14.42
we deserve well of our country.
00:08:14.46\00:08:16.22
But the idea that we
knew everything is nonsense.
00:08:16.26\00:08:18.63
He says, "I'm not
for the quick and light
00:08:18.66\00:08:22.83
constitutional adjustment."
00:08:22.86\00:08:24.20
But he said, "Of course
it's not locked in stern."
00:08:24.23\00:08:26.17
What we certainly need
to be mindful of precedent.
00:08:26.20\00:08:28.24
We certainly need to know
00:08:28.27\00:08:29.97
what those who drafted
the constitution believed
00:08:30.01\00:08:32.61
and try to be
faithful to their intentions.
00:08:32.64\00:08:36.54
But to take a
wouldn't sort of, you know,
00:08:36.58\00:08:39.58
we have to view
this exactly the same way
00:08:39.61\00:08:43.25
when we now live
in a modern world
00:08:43.28\00:08:45.15
that they could
never have anticipated
00:08:45.19\00:08:46.86
makes no sense to it.
00:08:46.89\00:08:48.22
And anyone that...
00:08:48.26\00:08:49.59
Most people haven't read
00:08:49.62\00:08:50.96
the
constitution outside of laws,
00:08:50.99\00:08:52.33
maybe religious
liberty activists,
00:08:52.36\00:08:53.70
but, you know, the constitution
00:08:53.73\00:08:55.06
embraced denial
of vote for women,
00:08:55.10\00:08:57.00
denial of vote and
also to African Americans,
00:08:57.03\00:09:01.00
and, of course, the
perpetuation of slavery.
00:09:01.04\00:09:04.61
It includes wacky things like
it actually sets dollar limit
00:09:04.64\00:09:08.04
to lawsuits as I remember.
00:09:08.08\00:09:10.35
What is it, $10 or something?
00:09:10.38\00:09:12.28
That part of it,
I don't remember.
00:09:12.31\00:09:13.68
But yes, yeah. Yes, it's there.
00:09:13.72\00:09:15.85
And, you know,
it goes on and on,
00:09:15.88\00:09:19.12
it's clearly a
product of its time.
00:09:19.15\00:09:20.86
And it's shown that we
know that you have to move on
00:09:20.89\00:09:24.23
because the amendments did
away with some of those things.
00:09:24.26\00:09:27.33
At some point, you know,
00:09:27.36\00:09:28.70
we've had to
amend the constitution
00:09:28.73\00:09:30.30
because, you know,
clearly our founders
00:09:30.33\00:09:32.07
didn't quite get it
right in some areas,
00:09:32.10\00:09:34.67
and so amendment was
necessary, and we know
00:09:34.70\00:09:36.87
that it's very difficult
to amend the constitution,
00:09:36.91\00:09:40.31
but there are times
where that needs to be done.
00:09:40.34\00:09:41.98
That's fine, they
purposely made it difficult,
00:09:42.01\00:09:43.55
which is a break on
just flipping stuff,
00:09:43.58\00:09:46.11
you know, the trend of the time
and the clamor of the people,
00:09:46.15\00:09:49.65
they were very troubled
by the clamor of the people.
00:09:49.68\00:09:52.79
They wanted to
represent the people
00:09:52.82\00:09:54.39
but not respond to the
people's whims and whimsies.
00:09:54.42\00:09:57.23
Right.
00:09:57.26\00:09:58.59
And I think that's
the genius of the system.
00:09:58.63\00:10:00.10
Absolutely, in that regard,
I think it's extraordinary.
00:10:00.13\00:10:04.73
But it arose from the
suspicion of the people.
00:10:04.77\00:10:08.17
And we don't
really know how to...
00:10:08.20\00:10:10.11
Getting back to Daniel,
there's not great evidence
00:10:10.14\00:10:13.31
that he was
aware of the duplicity
00:10:13.34\00:10:14.84
of his fellow rulers
who went to the kings,
00:10:14.88\00:10:18.48
but he didn't seem
00:10:18.51\00:10:20.12
to trouble
himself much with that.
00:10:20.15\00:10:22.02
But I think his action,
ultimately by, you know,
00:10:22.05\00:10:25.45
praying in his
window facing Jerusalem,
00:10:25.49\00:10:29.02
I think that suggested
00:10:29.06\00:10:30.39
that he
understood what was going on.
00:10:30.43\00:10:31.76
Well, he wasn't
going to be coward.
00:10:31.79\00:10:33.40
He understood what was going on,
00:10:33.43\00:10:34.76
and he was going to
take a stand, you know,
00:10:34.80\00:10:36.50
this was not his
first time at the rodeo.
00:10:36.53\00:10:39.10
I mean, he dealt
with this when he was,
00:10:39.13\00:10:41.70
you know, a
young man in Babylon.
00:10:41.74\00:10:43.81
Let me throw in a
real world application,
00:10:43.84\00:10:45.64
let's see what you'd say.
00:10:45.67\00:10:47.11
The Seventh-day
Adventist Church used to,
00:10:47.14\00:10:51.45
in a major way,
once you go around
00:10:51.48\00:10:53.72
and raise money
in gathering appeals,
00:10:53.75\00:10:57.99
go door-to-door asking for help.
00:10:58.02\00:11:00.09
And what we were doing
00:11:00.12\00:11:01.46
to help other
people's remission endeavors,
00:11:01.49\00:11:03.93
but more than just that,
00:11:03.96\00:11:05.36
just charity toward
poor people and so on.
00:11:05.39\00:11:08.60
And we offered them to help.
00:11:08.63\00:11:10.13
We raised over the
years many millions on that.
00:11:10.17\00:11:12.80
The lowest added to
change in different towns,
00:11:12.83\00:11:15.74
it became illegal
to even go door-to-door
00:11:15.77\00:11:18.41
and much less
talk about religion
00:11:18.44\00:11:20.68
and ask for money.
00:11:20.71\00:11:22.04
And I was on the committee,
00:11:22.08\00:11:24.15
I used to write some
of the material for this.
00:11:24.18\00:11:26.41
And I saw that in many
areas, we stopped doing it
00:11:26.45\00:11:29.98
because the law said we
should stop doing something
00:11:30.02\00:11:32.55
that was admirably
good, no threat to anyone.
00:11:32.59\00:11:36.56
And it remained to
the Jehovah's Witnesses
00:11:36.59\00:11:38.43
to take that course
to the Supreme Court
00:11:38.46\00:11:41.73
and uphold their
right to do that.
00:11:41.76\00:11:44.77
But we were pulling back.
00:11:44.80\00:11:46.13
Now it's a
phenomenon that troubles me.
00:11:46.17\00:11:49.84
In different
countries, even in this country,
00:11:49.87\00:11:52.17
US at different
times, there's been laws
00:11:52.21\00:11:53.98
that would inhibit your
reaching out, witnessing,
00:11:54.01\00:11:56.58
speaking to other
people about your faith.
00:11:56.61\00:11:58.38
Do you just
respond to those laws
00:11:58.41\00:12:00.32
and shrink back 'cause
the natural end of that
00:12:00.35\00:12:02.62
is you'll be within four
walls, essentially a prison,
00:12:02.65\00:12:06.49
not free to reach
out and do anything.
00:12:06.52\00:12:08.56
Where do you resist
not to be a law-breaker
00:12:08.59\00:12:11.79
but in the sense of
do what you're called do
00:12:11.83\00:12:14.03
in this higher calling
regardless of the consequence.
00:12:14.06\00:12:16.53
And that's what
Daniel had to face,
00:12:16.56\00:12:18.30
and you're
right, I'll still pray.
00:12:18.33\00:12:20.94
You know, this is what I'd do.
00:12:20.97\00:12:22.30
Why should I be
afraid of any consequence
00:12:22.34\00:12:24.64
'cause I'm only doing
what God's asked me to do?
00:12:24.67\00:12:27.08
You know, I think far too often,
00:12:27.11\00:12:30.01
our church members
don't realize that.
00:12:30.05\00:12:31.81
And so when they're facing
Sabbath accommodation issues,
00:12:31.85\00:12:35.45
you know,
instead of standing up,
00:12:35.48\00:12:36.95
instead of pressing forward,
00:12:36.99\00:12:39.62
instead of
filing an action with,
00:12:39.65\00:12:41.89
you know, the
employment agencies
00:12:41.92\00:12:44.96
to defend their rights,
00:12:44.99\00:12:46.33
they shrink away
and they move on,
00:12:46.36\00:12:48.13
and that impacts all of us.
00:12:48.16\00:12:50.30
You know, if they
refuse to take a stand,
00:12:50.33\00:12:52.80
that emboldens
employers to continue
00:12:52.83\00:12:55.37
to act in the same
way and to keep pushing
00:12:55.40\00:12:57.61
so that, you know,
we're pushed out of that area,
00:12:57.64\00:13:00.41
that marketplace, and
so it's very important
00:13:00.44\00:13:02.38
for us to be willing to stand
00:13:02.41\00:13:04.25
and to take a firm stand to say,
00:13:04.28\00:13:05.61
"No, this is the right way.
00:13:05.65\00:13:07.05
The law protects me, and
it's not a bad thing for me
00:13:07.08\00:13:10.22
to initiate a lawsuit
under the circumstances
00:13:10.25\00:13:12.75
to just stand for
the rights of all."
00:13:12.79\00:13:15.06
You know, I'm not advocating
00:13:15.09\00:13:17.16
law breaking at
all structurally.
00:13:17.19\00:13:20.73
But it's not just
working within laws,
00:13:20.76\00:13:23.40
I think it's
doing the right thing
00:13:23.43\00:13:25.40
regardless of the consequence,
00:13:25.43\00:13:26.97
which sometimes
might entangle you
00:13:27.00\00:13:29.60
with either
inadvertently compromising laws
00:13:29.64\00:13:34.41
or another occasions laws
like this one with Daniel,
00:13:34.44\00:13:36.85
designed to thwarters.
00:13:36.88\00:13:39.15
And you well know, as a
lawyer, there's some laws
00:13:39.18\00:13:42.85
that don't appear
necessarily to be on religion
00:13:42.88\00:13:45.75
or restricting
religious practice,
00:13:45.79\00:13:47.12
but they may be designed
by some clever legislator
00:13:47.16\00:13:51.59
to do exactly that.
00:13:51.63\00:13:54.43
In fact, well,
00:13:54.46\00:13:57.80
there's elements of that
even in the Johnson Amendment
00:13:57.83\00:14:00.44
I think, which
is much debated...
00:14:00.47\00:14:04.51
Not debated, it's
much discussed of late,
00:14:04.54\00:14:07.18
and intended to be
revoked by this administration.
00:14:07.21\00:14:11.18
I think this is a
good time to take a break.
00:14:11.21\00:14:13.05
So stay with us, and
we'll be back very shortly
00:14:13.08\00:14:16.42
to continue this
discussion of Daniel
00:14:16.45\00:14:19.22
then and Daniel's now.
00:14:19.25\00:14:20.59
Okay.
00:14:20.62\00:14:21.96