Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI180418B
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00:04 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break, 00:08 we were discussing this Doctrine of Discovery 00:12 and the role of papal mandate in centuries of actions 00:17 by what became major powers even in the United States. 00:22 So let's talk again, what are we left with today? 00:26 Is it just a historical anomaly? 00:27 Or do you think this is really 00:29 part of national assumptions and actions? 00:32 You know, I think, 00:33 you know, when we talk about these things 00:35 and then we begin to understand the impact 00:39 that it continues to have on our society, 00:43 we need to look at the groups who have been impacted. 00:47 In this country, we look at Native Americans 00:50 and we look at African Americans, 00:52 and how they had been impacted by these actions. 00:57 And the question always comes up, 01:00 how do you restore? 01:01 What's necessary to begin to repair the damage 01:05 that's been done? 01:07 How do we restore countries in Africa 01:10 that have been divided? 01:11 And their cultures have been changed. 01:13 You know, countries that spoke one language, 01:14 they're now speaking English, 01:16 they're speaking French or Spanish 01:18 or, you know, 01:20 people in the Caribbean or, you know... 01:22 These are serious questions, how do you begin to repair it? 01:26 You know, we know with Jesus and Zacchaeus, 01:29 there had to be some restoration 01:31 that was done after his actions. 01:33 Jesus didn't demand it, but with His change of heart, 01:36 He recognized that might be required. 01:38 Right. 01:41 You can't set everything right in this world, 01:43 and that's of course why there's a new world needed. 01:46 And even as you step... 01:49 We started up again. 01:51 It occurred to me as worth remembering that, 01:53 yes, the Spanish in South America and the Dutch 01:57 and the English and the French in North America 02:00 walked pretty steel-toed 02:06 and heavy-heeled over 02:10 anyone that lived there. 02:13 The standard method 02:14 was not just to go and kill them 02:16 and deprive them directly, 02:17 you would play on the alliance's 02:19 of different tribes to set one against another. 02:22 So it's not quite as simple in the bigger picture 02:25 of a European power taking away. 02:28 They were an evil presence 02:30 where they encouraged rivalries and so on, 02:33 and absent certainly with the Inca and the Mayans, 02:38 absent European intervention, 02:41 they would have been a fight between different factions 02:43 that would have overthrown one and established another. 02:46 So I don't really know 02:48 how you could untangle all of history, 02:51 even recognizing a horrible evil in this case 02:54 on the part of the papally authorized conquerors. 02:59 And we were talking during the break. 03:00 We see this issue playing out in South Africa, 03:02 you know, the president, our current president, 03:05 seemingly as a distraction 03:07 mentioned that white farmers are being murdered 03:10 in South Africa on mass. 03:12 And you know, we know that they are discussions 03:15 taking place in South Africa over what to do with the land. 03:19 Plus he wasn't president then. 03:21 But you know, what happened in Zimbabwe 03:23 was something that really should have been reacted 03:25 against when thousands of white farmers 03:28 were not only chased off the land, 03:30 some of them were killed in their farm houses. 03:31 There was a huge historical backlash. 03:34 There's no question. 03:35 The white settlement 03:37 there was the gross expensive 03:39 of natives and tribal groups. 03:43 But you know, where do you roll back history? 03:45 Is one injustice... 03:47 Can you roll it back, right? 03:48 Can you roll it back 03:49 or can you figure out a solution that, 03:51 you know, bring some measure of justice 03:54 and injustice that's been around 03:55 for close to 300-400 years? 03:57 Yeah. And it's worth remembering. 03:58 I don't think most people have quite tweeted on it. 04:02 Since World War II, which is in most respects, 04:05 a post colonial era, 04:09 an awful lot of the conflicts within emerging countries 04:14 often encouraged by communist powers 04:17 have been land ownership issues. 04:23 Chile, that's what was going on. 04:26 Most recently in Venezuela, that's exactly what's going on. 04:31 In the West, with our capitalist mindset, 04:36 we tend to see it as an abuse, 04:38 but it's a roughshod way 04:40 of redressing the injustices of the past. 04:43 I don't think it's always, in fact, really done well, 04:46 but it's an attempt to reach back 04:48 into the horribly unjust past. 04:50 Well, you know, as a country, we now engage in treaties 04:54 and agreements with some of these countries. 04:57 And the question is 05:00 our past practice is continuing. 05:03 You know, 05:04 are we taking advantage of these countries 05:06 because of our superior economic power. 05:09 And that's an issue 05:10 that we need to look at as well, 05:13 you know, is the exploitation continuing? 05:15 Might makes right, 05:17 and I don't think that's quoted from that book, 05:19 but, you know, Machiavelli is the prince. 05:21 He can read that writ large. 05:22 Basically, if you can get away with it, it's fine. 05:25 But you know, 05:27 I could tell a story not on America, 05:30 but on Australia, my homeland. 05:33 And I know this for a fact 05:34 because I had the conversation 05:35 with the president of East Timor, 05:39 a little country of only three million people. 05:42 They recently got their independence 05:44 in this new century. 05:48 Australia helped birth their freedom 05:50 because there was a civil war broke out caused by Indonesia, 05:54 who'd had an invasion and rulership. 05:57 Australia helped free them. 05:59 But in the freeing of them, 06:00 Australia, in a friendly manner, 06:03 broken an agreement where a huge oil field 06:06 that embraced East Timor and the oceans 06:08 nearby that they owned, 06:10 Australia got, I think, 70% of the action on it. 06:13 And the president was very unhappy, 06:15 "Oh, yes, they took advantage of us," but might makes right. 06:17 What position was he to challenge it? 06:19 So basically, you know, 06:22 the strong nearby power 06:26 took advantage of a weaker neighbor 06:28 and took most of their goods. 06:30 And you know, this is why, you know, it should concern us. 06:35 We should pay close attention to these things 06:37 when the country, 06:39 you know, when a new administration comes in, 06:41 and we say, "Well, we're going to renegotiate 06:43 all our agreements to make them, 06:46 you know, work to our benefit." 06:49 That's probably correct. Sure. 06:51 Most of us have seldom seen such a naked grab 06:53 for power and influence on the global stage. 06:56 You know, we can't question... 06:58 It's hard to question 07:00 what was going on inside the president's head, 07:01 but, you know, maybe he feels perfectly... 07:04 He probably does feel perfectly justified. 07:06 But in the norms of how countries operate, 07:09 they've often done these same things, 07:10 but under cover of palaver and all those. 07:13 But here it's just... 07:14 It's upfront, and it makes you wonder 07:18 if we're now entering a new era of discovery, 07:21 where we just unfold... 07:23 Yes, or I was going to say a new age of barbarism. 07:25 Yes, discovery was an age of barbarism, 07:27 but under the cloak of frilly collars, 07:29 and hose and doublet, and the musket, 07:32 or not the musket even then, but you know, 07:35 firearms, which... 07:37 That was usually the single thing 07:39 that one of the day is they were coming. 07:41 And the question is, 07:43 you know, what role does a church play in this? 07:45 Well, you already said one church, 07:48 a politico-religious church structure. 07:51 It actually, if not created it, then directed it. 07:55 But when I talk about that, 07:58 how should the church comment on these issues? 08:01 Absolutely. It's a good question. 08:02 Should the church look at what's taking place and say, 08:04 "You know what, this isn't right. 08:06 We need to treat our neighbors right." 08:09 Yes, I believe that the church 08:11 and people of Christian morality 08:13 need to speak up unequivocally and plainly on the morality 08:19 of all sorts of things that are happening 08:20 in the political world around us. 08:23 I think it's very dangerous 08:25 on the view of separation of church and state 08:27 and religious liberty that we speak to policy issues 08:30 rather than the morality. 08:33 But on any policy issue, 08:34 without talking about the policy, we can say, 08:36 for example, on immigration 08:38 that people are being abused here, 08:40 treated in an unchristian way as that law is executed. 08:44 We don't need to speak about the law 08:46 unless it's a grossly unjust law in itself, 08:48 then you've got a moral issue. 08:51 But we need to speak out, 08:52 speak out against the police 08:56 abusing people in their community 08:58 when that happens, and it does happen. 09:01 We need to speak out even of the attitude 09:05 that the US might exemplify toward another country 09:08 that this is not the way Christian society should act. 09:12 I think there's a whole leeway without getting into policy, 09:15 but we have to speak out with moral voice, and urgency, 09:20 and not, you know... 09:22 I know you'd object me saying legally, 09:24 but, you know, these well thought out, 09:27 bloodless sort of statements that take away moral power, 09:30 and then often tilt towards 09:32 suggesting a political line of action. 09:35 We shouldn't be political. Right. 09:37 I think the key thing is to remember that, 09:39 you know, we are our neighbor's keeper, 09:42 and, you know, we can't ignore someone suffering 09:46 while we are enjoying the benefits of, 09:48 you know, where we are. 09:50 And I think, we have that responsibility as individuals, 09:53 we have that responsibility as a church. 09:56 And I agree with you, 09:57 the church needs to speak and speak with a strong voice 10:01 when, you know, immoral acts are taking place, 10:04 whether it's at the local level, 10:06 at the state level, or the federal level. 10:09 Absolutely. 10:10 And we need to speak out, beggars on street corners, 10:12 isn't that of some moral concern? 10:15 Be it antiabortion? 10:17 Is the church speaking out 10:18 about the hungry children in the US? 10:20 I think 30% of children go to bed hungry every night 10:23 according to statistics. 10:24 That's a moral concern. Right. 10:27 And we can't ignore those as a church. 10:28 So we need to speak. 10:30 Okay. 10:32 Yeah, you know, 10:33 I think it's very important for us to have a voice 10:36 within the community. 10:37 And I think, far too often as Adventist, 10:40 we have not been heard from. 10:42 But we need to be heard from on these moral issues 10:45 without becoming, you know, politically entangled, 10:48 we need to be able to say what's right and what's wrong. 10:54 A few years ago, the Vatican released a document entitled, 10:58 Memory and Reconciliation. 11:01 In it, they apologized 11:02 for many of the abuses of the past, 11:04 including persecution of the Jews, 11:07 the inquisition, and so on. 11:12 As we've discussed in this program, 11:14 many of the things that happened in the new world 11:16 are directly traceable 11:18 to a stance taken by the church at the time. 11:21 Endorsing the disposition of whole peoples 11:25 and authorizing rapacious states to plant the flag 11:30 and claim the land regardless of who owns it 11:32 or what was there, 11:33 and to do whatever they want with it, 11:35 even including at one time 11:37 saying that these people had no souls, 11:39 they were not to be regarded. 11:41 We need to move beyond history, 11:43 and the Vatican has been shifting that way. 11:46 But we, Protestants, 11:48 know that the story is more complicated. 11:50 We know that we need to depend on upon the Lord 11:53 and that Promised Land. 11:56 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2019-01-14