Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break,
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we were discussing
this Doctrine of Discovery
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and the role of papal
mandate in centuries of actions
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by what became major powers
even in the United States.
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So let's talk again,
what are we left with today?
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Is it just a historical anomaly?
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Or do you think this is really
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part of national
assumptions and actions?
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You know, I think,
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you know, when we
talk about these things
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and then we begin to
understand the impact
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that it continues
to have on our society,
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we need to look at the
groups who have been impacted.
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In this country, we
look at Native Americans
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and we look at
African Americans,
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and how they had been
impacted by these actions.
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And the
question always comes up,
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how do you restore?
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What's necessary to
begin to repair the damage
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that's been done?
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How do we restore
countries in Africa
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that have been divided?
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And their
cultures have been changed.
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You know, countries
that spoke one language,
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they're now speaking English,
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they're speaking
French or Spanish
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or, you know,
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people in the
Caribbean or, you know...
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These are serious questions,
how do you begin to repair it?
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You know, we know
with Jesus and Zacchaeus,
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there had to be some restoration
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that was done after his actions.
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Jesus didn't demand it,
but with His change of heart,
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He recognized
that might be required.
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Right.
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You can't set
everything right in this world,
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and that's of course why
there's a new world needed.
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And even as you step...
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We started up again.
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It occurred to me as
worth remembering that,
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yes, the Spanish in
South America and the Dutch
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and the English and
the French in North America
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walked pretty steel-toed
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and heavy-heeled over
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anyone that lived there.
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The standard method
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was not just to go and kill them
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and deprive them directly,
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you would play on the alliance's
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of different tribes to
set one against another.
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So it's not quite as
simple in the bigger picture
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of a European power taking away.
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They were an evil presence
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where they
encouraged rivalries and so on,
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and absent certainly
with the Inca and the Mayans,
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absent European intervention,
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they would have been a
fight between different factions
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that would have overthrown
one and established another.
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So I don't really know
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how you could
untangle all of history,
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even recognizing a
horrible evil in this case
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on the part of the
papally authorized conquerors.
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And we were
talking during the break.
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We see this issue
playing out in South Africa,
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you know, the president,
our current president,
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seemingly as a distraction
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mentioned that white
farmers are being murdered
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in South Africa on mass.
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And you know, we know
that they are discussions
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taking place in South Africa
over what to do with the land.
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Plus he wasn't president then.
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But you know, what
happened in Zimbabwe
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was something that
really should have been reacted
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against when
thousands of white farmers
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were not only
chased off the land,
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some of them were
killed in their farm houses.
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There was a huge
historical backlash.
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There's no question.
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The white settlement
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there was the gross expensive
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of natives and tribal groups.
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But you know, where
do you roll back history?
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Is one injustice...
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Can you roll it back, right?
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Can you roll it back
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or can you figure
out a solution that,
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you know, bring
some measure of justice
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and injustice that's been around
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for close to 300-400 years?
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Yeah. And it's
worth remembering.
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I don't think most
people have quite tweeted on it.
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Since World War II,
which is in most respects,
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a post colonial era,
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an awful lot of the conflicts
within emerging countries
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often encouraged
by communist powers
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have been land ownership issues.
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Chile, that's what was going on.
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Most recently in Venezuela,
that's exactly what's going on.
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In the West, with
our capitalist mindset,
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we tend to see it as an abuse,
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but it's a roughshod way
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of redressing the
injustices of the past.
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I don't think it's always,
in fact, really done well,
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but it's an
attempt to reach back
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into the horribly unjust past.
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Well, you know, as a country,
we now engage in treaties
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and agreements with
some of these countries.
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And the question is
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our past practice is continuing.
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You know,
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are we taking
advantage of these countries
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because of our
superior economic power.
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And that's an issue
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that we need to look at as well,
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you know, is the
exploitation continuing?
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Might makes right,
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and I don't think
that's quoted from that book,
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but, you know,
Machiavelli is the prince.
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He can read that writ large.
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Basically, if you can
get away with it, it's fine.
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But you know,
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I could tell a
story not on America,
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but on Australia, my homeland.
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And I know this for a fact
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because I had the conversation
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with the
president of East Timor,
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a little country of
only three million people.
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They recently got
their independence
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in this new century.
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Australia helped
birth their freedom
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because there was a civil war
broke out caused by Indonesia,
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who'd had an
invasion and rulership.
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Australia helped free them.
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But in the freeing of them,
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Australia, in a friendly manner,
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broken an agreement
where a huge oil field
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that embraced East
Timor and the oceans
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nearby that they owned,
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Australia got, I think,
70% of the action on it.
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And the
president was very unhappy,
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"Oh, yes, they took advantage
of us," but might makes right.
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What position was
he to challenge it?
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So basically, you know,
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the strong nearby power
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took advantage
of a weaker neighbor
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and took most of their goods.
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And you know, this is why,
you know, it should concern us.
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We should pay close
attention to these things
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when the country,
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you know, when a new
administration comes in,
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and we say, "Well,
we're going to renegotiate
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all our agreements to make them,
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you know, work to our benefit."
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That's probably correct. Sure.
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Most of us have
seldom seen such a naked grab
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for power and
influence on the global stage.
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You know, we can't question...
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It's hard to question
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what was going on
inside the president's head,
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but, you know, maybe
he feels perfectly...
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He probably does
feel perfectly justified.
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But in the norms of
how countries operate,
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they've often
done these same things,
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but under cover of
palaver and all those.
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But here it's just...
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It's upfront, and
it makes you wonder
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if we're now entering
a new era of discovery,
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where we just unfold...
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Yes, or I was going to
say a new age of barbarism.
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Yes, discovery was
an age of barbarism,
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but under the
cloak of frilly collars,
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and hose and
doublet, and the musket,
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or not the musket
even then, but you know,
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firearms, which...
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That was
usually the single thing
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that one of the day
is they were coming.
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And the question is,
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you know, what role
does a church play in this?
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Well, you
already said one church,
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a politico-religious
church structure.
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It actually, if not
created it, then directed it.
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But when I talk about that,
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how should the church
comment on these issues?
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Absolutely.
It's a good question.
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Should the church look at
what's taking place and say,
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"You know what,
this isn't right.
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We need to treat
our neighbors right."
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Yes, I believe that the church
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and people of Christian morality
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need to speak up unequivocally
and plainly on the morality
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of all sorts of
things that are happening
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in the
political world around us.
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I think it's very dangerous
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on the view of
separation of church and state
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and religious liberty
that we speak to policy issues
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rather than the morality.
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But on any policy issue,
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without talking about
the policy, we can say,
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for example, on immigration
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that people are
being abused here,
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treated in an unchristian
way as that law is executed.
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We don't need to
speak about the law
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unless it's a
grossly unjust law in itself,
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then you've got a moral issue.
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But we need to speak out,
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speak out against the police
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abusing people
in their community
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when that happens,
and it does happen.
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We need to speak
out even of the attitude
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that the US might
exemplify toward another country
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that this is not the way
Christian society should act.
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I think there's a whole leeway
without getting into policy,
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but we have to speak out
with moral voice, and urgency,
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and not, you know...
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I know you'd
object me saying legally,
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but, you know,
these well thought out,
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bloodless sort of statements
that take away moral power,
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and then often tilt towards
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suggesting a
political line of action.
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We shouldn't be
political. Right.
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I think the key
thing is to remember that,
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you know, we are
our neighbor's keeper,
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and, you know, we can't
ignore someone suffering
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while we are
enjoying the benefits of,
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you know, where we are.
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And I think, we have that
responsibility as individuals,
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we have that
responsibility as a church.
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And I agree with you,
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the church needs to speak
and speak with a strong voice
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when, you know,
immoral acts are taking place,
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whether it's at the local level,
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at the state level,
or the federal level.
00:10:06.70\00:10:09.14
Absolutely.
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And we need to speak out,
beggars on street corners,
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isn't that of
some moral concern?
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Be it antiabortion?
00:10:15.98\00:10:17.31
Is the church speaking out
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about the hungry
children in the US?
00:10:18.71\00:10:20.18
I think 30% of children
go to bed hungry every night
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according to statistics.
00:10:23.25\00:10:24.59
That's a moral concern. Right.
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And we can't
ignore those as a church.
00:10:27.29\00:10:28.76
So we need to speak.
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Okay.
00:10:30.66\00:10:32.03
Yeah, you know,
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I think it's very
important for us to have a voice
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within the community.
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And I think, far
too often as Adventist,
00:10:37.40\00:10:40.37
we have not been heard from.
00:10:40.40\00:10:42.84
But we need to be heard
from on these moral issues
00:10:42.87\00:10:45.44
without becoming, you
know, politically entangled,
00:10:45.47\00:10:48.08
we need to be able to say
what's right and what's wrong.
00:10:48.11\00:10:50.91
A few years ago, the Vatican
released a document entitled,
00:10:54.52\00:10:58.15
Memory and Reconciliation.
00:10:58.19\00:11:01.39
In it, they apologized
00:11:01.42\00:11:02.76
for many of the
abuses of the past,
00:11:02.79\00:11:04.73
including
persecution of the Jews,
00:11:04.76\00:11:07.60
the inquisition, and so on.
00:11:07.63\00:11:12.33
As we've
discussed in this program,
00:11:12.37\00:11:14.64
many of the things that
happened in the new world
00:11:14.67\00:11:16.91
are directly traceable
00:11:16.94\00:11:18.84
to a stance taken by
the church at the time.
00:11:18.87\00:11:21.94
Endorsing the
disposition of whole peoples
00:11:21.98\00:11:25.51
and authorizing rapacious
states to plant the flag
00:11:25.55\00:11:30.02
and claim the land
regardless of who owns it
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or what was there,
00:11:32.55\00:11:33.89
and to do
whatever they want with it,
00:11:33.92\00:11:35.66
even including at one time
00:11:35.69\00:11:37.66
saying that these
people had no souls,
00:11:37.69\00:11:39.76
they were not to be regarded.
00:11:39.79\00:11:41.66
We need to move beyond history,
00:11:41.70\00:11:43.30
and the Vatican has
been shifting that way.
00:11:43.33\00:11:46.30
But we, Protestants,
00:11:46.33\00:11:47.97
know that the story
is more complicated.
00:11:48.00\00:11:50.57
We know that we need
to depend on upon the Lord
00:11:50.61\00:11:53.88
and that Promised Land.
00:11:53.91\00:11:56.44
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:11:56.48\00:11:59.51