Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:00:26.59\00:00:28.79
This is a
program that is designed
00:00:28.82\00:00:30.83
to inform you on
religious liberty issues
00:00:30.86\00:00:33.66
in the US and around the world.
00:00:33.70\00:00:36.00
I'm the editor
of Liberty magazine,
00:00:36.03\00:00:37.67
Lincoln Steed.
00:00:37.70\00:00:39.37
That's my name,
not the magazine.
00:00:39.40\00:00:41.14
And Liberty magazine is a
magazine of 100 years plus
00:00:41.17\00:00:44.57
that has been
dedicated to religious freedom
00:00:44.61\00:00:46.64
under the model of
separation of church and state.
00:00:46.68\00:00:50.15
My guest on the
program is John Ashmeade.
00:00:50.18\00:00:54.45
John Ashmeade.
00:00:54.48\00:00:56.55
You're the Associate
Director of Public Affairs,
00:00:56.58\00:01:00.02
big mouthful, Public
Affairs and Religious Liberty
00:01:00.06\00:01:02.82
for the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
00:01:02.86\00:01:04.43
in its Atlantic Union,
00:01:04.46\00:01:05.79
which is basically the
Northeastern United States.
00:01:05.83\00:01:08.06
United States. Right.
00:01:08.10\00:01:12.00
Let's talk history a little bit.
00:01:12.03\00:01:13.37
Okay.
00:01:13.40\00:01:14.87
And to me, religious
liberty is best understood
00:01:14.90\00:01:17.37
when you mix in
a bit of history.
00:01:17.41\00:01:18.81
There's
antecedence to everything.
00:01:18.84\00:01:20.71
Sure.
00:01:20.74\00:01:22.28
And in fact, a good time
00:01:22.31\00:01:23.65
to mention my
continuing preoccupation.
00:01:23.68\00:01:26.35
Among other
things, I don't think
00:01:26.38\00:01:27.72
you could understand
the American experiment
00:01:27.75\00:01:30.15
without knowing if
the English Civil War
00:01:30.19\00:01:32.82
fought on religious
issues by the Puritans.
00:01:32.85\00:01:36.56
And then many of them
00:01:36.59\00:01:38.33
coming after the
demise of Oliver Cromwell,
00:01:38.36\00:01:40.83
a religious dictator,
and coming be a lifetime,
00:01:40.86\00:01:44.70
a long lifetime before
the American experiment.
00:01:44.73\00:01:47.60
But let's go even further back,
00:01:47.64\00:01:49.64
at least to what
used to be accepted
00:01:49.67\00:01:52.27
as a beginning point for the US,
00:01:52.31\00:01:54.18
Christopher Columbus.
00:01:54.21\00:01:55.54
Sure.
00:01:55.58\00:01:56.91
He had a bit of a
mandate, didn't he?
00:01:56.95\00:01:58.41
Not just from
Ferdinand and Isabella
00:01:58.45\00:02:00.28
that the Roman Catholic Church
got involved in this mandate.
00:02:00.32\00:02:05.15
As I remember, the
pope helped things along by
00:02:05.19\00:02:08.79
diminishing the
humanity of the inhabitants
00:02:08.82\00:02:11.86
as they discovered them,
00:02:11.89\00:02:13.23
and that led to horrible abuses.
00:02:13.26\00:02:15.03
But there's that famous saying
that's been in many movies,
00:02:15.06\00:02:17.83
Christopher
Columbus, who wrote about it,
00:02:17.87\00:02:19.47
"Planting the flag for Spain.
00:02:19.50\00:02:21.90
Now it's Spanish territory."
00:02:21.94\00:02:23.27
Of course, the British did it.
00:02:23.30\00:02:24.64
And the Americans
recently planted on the moon.
00:02:24.67\00:02:27.11
We haven't been able to
do much with the moon since.
00:02:27.14\00:02:29.64
But you know, what
was going on there?
00:02:29.68\00:02:32.08
Is there a legal model
00:02:32.11\00:02:34.42
that even perhaps
might pop up at the moment?
00:02:34.45\00:02:36.69
Or is that just another
age, and the age of exploration,
00:02:36.72\00:02:39.45
and domination, and conquest?
00:02:39.49\00:02:41.39
Sure.
00:02:41.42\00:02:42.76
So in the 15th century,
00:02:42.79\00:02:46.23
the pope issued a few decrees,
00:02:46.26\00:02:48.96
and we now call them
the Doctrine of Discovery.
00:02:49.00\00:02:51.43
I mean just in the 15th century?
00:02:51.47\00:02:52.80
Yes. They wanted
to do all of them.
00:02:52.83\00:02:54.20
Right.
00:02:54.24\00:02:55.57
But you know, and ironically,
00:02:55.60\00:02:57.97
you know, this
is around the time
00:02:58.01\00:02:59.41
that we see the
start of the reformation.
00:02:59.44\00:03:01.84
And so at the
start of the reformation,
00:03:01.88\00:03:04.31
we see a decree that really
enslaved the world in a sense.
00:03:04.35\00:03:09.82
And basically, you know,
00:03:09.85\00:03:11.79
the pope authorized the
kings and queens of Europe
00:03:11.82\00:03:14.99
to go throughout the world
00:03:15.02\00:03:16.66
and to conquer the
world in the name of Christ.
00:03:16.69\00:03:19.76
And that's
exactly what they did.
00:03:19.79\00:03:21.76
They planted a flag,
and they planted the cross.
00:03:21.80\00:03:25.10
And this was done across Africa.
00:03:25.13\00:03:27.90
It was certainly
done in the Caribbean
00:03:27.94\00:03:30.11
and in North and South America.
00:03:30.14\00:03:33.07
And you know, basically
this authorized the nations,
00:03:33.11\00:03:36.71
whoever got there
first, you owned it.
00:03:36.75\00:03:39.88
And so there was a
race around the world
00:03:39.91\00:03:43.62
to basically enslave
00:03:43.65\00:03:45.85
and take the resources
00:03:45.89\00:03:48.69
and claim the land for
the countries of Europe.
00:03:48.72\00:03:51.53
And under that model,
00:03:51.56\00:03:52.89
it pretty much
continued right up till
00:03:52.93\00:03:55.33
World War II in my view.
00:03:55.36\00:03:57.70
It continued.
00:03:57.73\00:03:59.10
You know, there are two
cases that come to mind,
00:03:59.13\00:04:03.27
but there's a
Supreme Court case,
00:04:03.30\00:04:06.57
named Johnson versus McIntosh,
00:04:06.61\00:04:08.64
and there is a Supreme Court
for the state of Tennessee case
00:04:08.68\00:04:12.78
that really go into
detail on this issue.
00:04:12.81\00:04:17.05
And you know, basically focus
00:04:17.09\00:04:19.89
and attribute the authority
of the countries to do that
00:04:19.92\00:04:23.89
all the way back to
these papal decrees.
00:04:23.93\00:04:27.63
One case state the foreman
dealt with a Native American,
00:04:27.66\00:04:32.60
I think from the Cherokee tribe,
00:04:32.63\00:04:35.97
committed a murder
in state territory.
00:04:36.00\00:04:39.37
And the question was,
00:04:39.41\00:04:41.31
could he be tried for
murder under state law or,
00:04:41.34\00:04:44.71
you know, would he
have to be tried for murder
00:04:44.75\00:04:47.32
under the Indian law.
00:04:47.35\00:04:49.48
And the basic
outcome of the case,
00:04:49.52\00:04:52.15
which is also consistent
with the Supreme Court cases,
00:04:52.19\00:04:55.02
the United States
gain right to the land
00:04:55.06\00:05:00.93
via taking the land from
the British by revolution.
00:05:00.96\00:05:04.27
So whatever
rights the British had,
00:05:04.30\00:05:06.00
we inherited those
rights by revolutions.
00:05:06.03\00:05:08.77
Sounds like might makes right.
00:05:08.80\00:05:10.27
Might makes right.
00:05:10.31\00:05:12.11
And so, you know,
that's something that
00:05:12.14\00:05:15.41
Native American
people have been dealing with
00:05:15.44\00:05:17.41
for quite some time.
00:05:17.45\00:05:18.78
And in the court system,
00:05:18.81\00:05:20.15
when they have challenged
the taking of their lands,
00:05:20.18\00:05:23.89
the typical response
from the court system is,
00:05:23.92\00:05:27.12
"Yeah, we got the
land from the British,
00:05:27.16\00:05:29.79
who got it by the
Doctrine of Discovery."
00:05:29.82\00:05:31.99
So they did link it to
the Doctrine of Discovery.
00:05:32.03\00:05:34.63
They linked it all the way back
to the Doctrine of Discovery.
00:05:34.66\00:05:37.13
Which is interesting
00:05:37.17\00:05:38.50
because the British were clearly
00:05:38.53\00:05:42.00
by that Age of Discovery,
00:05:42.04\00:05:43.44
I'm trying to get it straight,
00:05:43.47\00:05:44.81
but couldn't have
been before Henry VIII,
00:05:44.84\00:05:48.18
so it was clearly in an
age of English Protestantism.
00:05:48.21\00:05:52.25
So why would England
accept that papal authority?
00:05:52.28\00:05:55.55
Right.
00:05:55.58\00:05:56.92
And it's interesting,
00:05:56.95\00:05:58.29
the case in State v.
Foreman mentions the fact that,
00:05:58.32\00:06:01.72
you know, despite the
Protestant Reformation,
00:06:01.76\00:06:05.66
the Protestants...
00:06:05.69\00:06:07.03
They still bow to
that that authority.
00:06:07.06\00:06:08.40
They still bound
to that authority,
00:06:08.43\00:06:09.76
obviously
because of the benefit.
00:06:09.80\00:06:11.13
They're keeping the
land that they're claiming.
00:06:11.17\00:06:12.67
It's very convenient.
00:06:12.70\00:06:15.47
And you know, but when you
begin to look at our system,
00:06:15.50\00:06:19.57
you know, when you start talking
00:06:19.61\00:06:20.98
about the
Declaration of Independence,
00:06:21.01\00:06:22.64
and we hold these
truths to be self-evident,
00:06:22.68\00:06:25.35
and, you know, we
sort of stop there
00:06:25.38\00:06:27.25
because it talks about our
highest and noblest ideals.
00:06:27.28\00:06:32.95
But when you read through
00:06:32.99\00:06:34.92
the full
Declaration of Independence,
00:06:34.96\00:06:36.86
it then starts talking
about the savage Indians that,
00:06:36.89\00:06:40.63
you know, we have to
destroy before they destroy us.
00:06:40.66\00:06:43.83
And that's something
that we don't think about,
00:06:43.87\00:06:47.44
you know, the very
foundation of this country
00:06:47.47\00:06:50.57
while we're talking about
00:06:50.61\00:06:51.94
religious freedom for ourselves,
00:06:51.97\00:06:54.28
we are taking those
freedoms away from others,
00:06:54.31\00:06:56.91
people of African descent,
00:06:56.95\00:06:58.51
and people of
Native America descent.
00:06:58.55\00:07:01.18
Interesting.
00:07:01.22\00:07:04.32
But, yeah, to me, you know,
00:07:04.35\00:07:06.15
I knew about the Doctrine of
Discovery not under that name
00:07:06.19\00:07:08.89
but I never realized
that the US accepted it
00:07:08.92\00:07:12.76
as part of its initial authority
00:07:12.79\00:07:15.23
by extension from the British.
00:07:15.26\00:07:16.60
That's amazing, amazing.
00:07:16.63\00:07:18.83
And a really salutary
lesson for all nations...
00:07:18.87\00:07:23.67
A mixture of church
and state established...
00:07:23.71\00:07:25.61
Why would a church authority,
the Pope in this case,
00:07:25.64\00:07:29.54
exercise true legal
power to civil country,
00:07:29.58\00:07:35.22
especially one that it
cut loose from it in theory?
00:07:35.25\00:07:38.62
But it also shows
00:07:38.65\00:07:40.36
which the Lord
shows over and over again.
00:07:40.39\00:07:42.16
Once you accept
that you've established,
00:07:42.19\00:07:44.33
that power is now
enforceable, isn't it?
00:07:44.36\00:07:47.73
That dictates.
00:07:47.76\00:07:49.10
But it really
talks about, in a sense,
00:07:49.13\00:07:51.60
how significant parts of
the world were Christianized.
00:07:51.63\00:07:58.37
It was by force. Right?
00:07:58.41\00:08:00.91
Well, I used to
listen a lot to...
00:08:00.94\00:08:02.64
Yes.
00:08:02.68\00:08:04.01
To Christopher Hitchens,
00:08:04.05\00:08:06.35
journalist turned
atheist, apologist.
00:08:06.38\00:08:09.92
He probably was
always an atheist,
00:08:09.95\00:08:11.29
but he became
radical towards it.
00:08:11.32\00:08:13.02
But he knew his history.
00:08:13.05\00:08:14.72
And he would
debate people of faith
00:08:14.76\00:08:17.59
and he always invoked
00:08:17.63\00:08:18.99
these sorts of
historical anomalies.
00:08:19.03\00:08:21.06
And there's not much defense
00:08:21.10\00:08:23.10
for in the
political Christian era,
00:08:23.13\00:08:26.53
the middle ages on.
00:08:26.57\00:08:29.47
In the name of religion,
horrible things were done
00:08:29.50\00:08:32.11
that you cannot
defend from the Bible.
00:08:32.14\00:08:35.04
So I don't need to defend it
00:08:35.08\00:08:36.41
when I say this is
Christianity run amok,
00:08:36.44\00:08:38.55
Christianity off the rails.
00:08:38.58\00:08:40.05
Right.
00:08:40.08\00:08:42.02
And the Roman Catholic Church
00:08:42.05\00:08:43.39
to their credit have
had some acknowledgement,
00:08:43.42\00:08:46.49
their errors during that period.
00:08:46.52\00:08:48.56
Whether they've
structurally moved
00:08:48.59\00:08:50.43
beyond that, time will tell.
00:08:50.46\00:08:51.89
Perhaps not.
00:08:51.93\00:08:53.33
But there was a document
Memory and Reconciliation
00:08:53.36\00:08:56.80
where they apologized
for many of these abuses
00:08:56.83\00:08:59.13
including the
inquisition itself,
00:08:59.17\00:09:00.70
treatment of
the Jews, and so on.
00:09:00.74\00:09:03.74
But it is an interesting record.
00:09:03.77\00:09:06.41
You know, it's interesting
00:09:06.44\00:09:08.24
that you raise the
issue of apologies.
00:09:08.28\00:09:11.28
The United States,
00:09:11.31\00:09:13.42
I think in a defense
appropriation bill in 2009,
00:09:13.45\00:09:17.49
when President Obama...
00:09:17.52\00:09:19.55
There was an
apology to Native Americans.
00:09:19.59\00:09:22.02
It's hidden in that bill.
00:09:22.06\00:09:23.99
He got into some trouble
for apparently apologizing.
00:09:24.03\00:09:27.26
Right. Right.
00:09:27.30\00:09:28.63
And statements have been
made over and over again,
00:09:28.66\00:09:31.33
and I don't need to
define when they were
00:09:31.37\00:09:32.93
because they repeated
00:09:32.97\00:09:35.24
that no public official
and particularly a president
00:09:35.27\00:09:38.34
should ever
apologize for America.
00:09:38.37\00:09:40.64
I mean that is a
thoroughly unchristian,
00:09:40.68\00:09:43.85
illogical point of view.
00:09:43.88\00:09:46.28
In fact, I think a
country in some ways
00:09:46.31\00:09:49.25
can be greater for
acknowledging its errors.
00:09:49.28\00:09:51.59
Or else it will repeat the error
00:09:51.62\00:09:53.62
if it's a large enough error.
00:09:53.66\00:09:54.99
And in this case,
00:09:55.02\00:09:56.36
to abuse whole people
thinking you were justified.
00:09:56.39\00:09:59.49
Does anyone want to think that
00:09:59.53\00:10:00.90
the US would
repeat such a thing?
00:10:00.93\00:10:02.26
So to apologize will be great.
00:10:02.30\00:10:04.90
In this regard, you reminded
me that not too long ago the US,
00:10:04.93\00:10:08.30
I think the Supreme
Court made some statement
00:10:08.34\00:10:10.17
about the
detention of the Japanese
00:10:10.21\00:10:14.21
as a great
injustice, and wrong, and so on,
00:10:14.24\00:10:16.04
and the
reparations were not much.
00:10:16.08\00:10:19.48
But to me, it's
very telling that
00:10:19.51\00:10:20.98
even after that
somewhat apology,
00:10:21.02\00:10:23.72
only a few months ago,
00:10:23.75\00:10:25.12
we stated again
from high officials that
00:10:25.15\00:10:27.29
that was not too wrong,
00:10:27.32\00:10:29.49
and that we might need to
repeat it with other peoples.
00:10:29.52\00:10:32.09
Right, exactly,
and that's the point.
00:10:32.13\00:10:33.80
When I was in law
school, we studied that case.
00:10:33.83\00:10:35.80
And you know, the horror of it
00:10:35.83\00:10:38.40
and, you know,
naively at that time,
00:10:38.43\00:10:41.57
we concluded that
00:10:41.60\00:10:42.94
that could never again
happen in the United States.
00:10:42.97\00:10:45.11
But I think, if a
catastrophic event happens
00:10:45.14\00:10:48.44
and people become
fearful of their neighbors,
00:10:48.48\00:10:51.25
this is exactly what
we can see take place.
00:10:51.28\00:10:54.18
You know, and when
we look at this country
00:10:54.22\00:10:56.58
and our impact around the world,
00:10:56.62\00:10:59.59
you know, we need to
be careful as a nation,
00:10:59.62\00:11:03.83
you know, that we respect
the rights of other nations
00:11:03.86\00:11:08.03
to self-determination
as we negotiate with them,
00:11:08.06\00:11:11.10
as we interact with them,
00:11:11.13\00:11:12.47
that we don't
come in, and dominate,
00:11:12.50\00:11:14.80
and basically impose
our point of view on them.
00:11:14.84\00:11:18.31
And that's the lesson that
we need to learn from this.
00:11:18.34\00:11:20.91
This was the
foundation of the country
00:11:20.94\00:11:22.94
that this is how
the country was framed,
00:11:22.98\00:11:24.91
but we don't need to continue
00:11:24.95\00:11:26.85
the same mistakes of
the past into the present.
00:11:26.88\00:11:28.78
Yeah, it's a good lesson,
00:11:28.82\00:11:30.15
but it may not
be easy to follow.
00:11:30.19\00:11:33.02
And you know, the US,
00:11:33.05\00:11:35.12
like any other countries made
up of fallible human beings,
00:11:35.16\00:11:38.16
I think most people accept that,
00:11:38.19\00:11:39.59
of course, an
individual human being,
00:11:39.63\00:11:42.00
you know, we are feet...
00:11:42.03\00:11:43.80
not just feet of
clay, we are clay.
00:11:43.83\00:11:47.17
But in the US, I think
it's harder for many countries
00:11:47.20\00:11:50.71
to come to grips with
00:11:50.74\00:11:52.07
because this residual
American exceptionalism,
00:11:52.11\00:11:56.28
which has religious origins.
00:11:56.31\00:11:58.18
I think it goes back to
the papal pronouncements.
00:11:58.21\00:12:03.15
But even people that
don't have a religious view,
00:12:03.18\00:12:06.29
sort of buy into
it, that it's the...
00:12:06.32\00:12:08.12
You know, comes different
ways, the indispensable country,
00:12:08.16\00:12:11.79
the only free country,
you express it different ways
00:12:11.83\00:12:14.06
or it goes back to city
00:12:14.10\00:12:16.40
build on the
hill by, you know...
00:12:16.43\00:12:19.17
Winthrop made that statement.
00:12:19.20\00:12:21.14
Of course, that was
before the US was a country.
00:12:21.17\00:12:22.57
Manifest destiny.
00:12:22.60\00:12:23.94
Yeah, manifest destiny. Right.
00:12:23.97\00:12:26.47
And these have all been...
00:12:26.51\00:12:27.84
They've had their positive side,
00:12:27.88\00:12:29.21
but the negative side is
00:12:29.24\00:12:30.58
it excuses great
structural abuses where,
00:12:30.61\00:12:35.78
you know, you've
cast people of sub-humans,
00:12:35.82\00:12:37.69
you've effectively
genocide against the Indians.
00:12:37.72\00:12:41.49
And basically what we're saying
00:12:41.52\00:12:43.79
and what this is
talking about is that
00:12:43.83\00:12:45.33
God is on our side,
00:12:45.36\00:12:47.13
and God is mandating that
00:12:47.16\00:12:48.83
we go out, and conquer,
and take control of the world.
00:12:48.86\00:12:51.90
And that's the
real danger, you know,
00:12:51.93\00:12:54.90
God is a God of love
00:12:54.94\00:12:57.47
and He wants you to serve
Him out of love, and not at,
00:12:57.51\00:13:00.91
you know, with a
sword to your neck
00:13:00.94\00:13:02.58
or a gun to your head.
00:13:02.61\00:13:03.95
Yeah, Abraham Lincoln, I think,
had a good understanding of it.
00:13:03.98\00:13:06.51
And he was not what you'd call
00:13:06.55\00:13:10.82
an orthodox Christian,
00:13:10.85\00:13:12.39
but he had a Christian faith.
00:13:12.42\00:13:13.79
But remember, he said,
00:13:13.82\00:13:15.16
"Both sides prayed to
God in the Civil War."
00:13:15.19\00:13:17.33
He said, "God
can't be on both sides."
00:13:17.36\00:13:20.53
You know, we really
need to think that through.
00:13:20.56\00:13:23.77
But there is a
danger in the future,
00:13:23.80\00:13:25.67
I believe, that
the US will forge ahead
00:13:25.70\00:13:27.64
feeling morally
immune from any criticism.
00:13:27.67\00:13:33.24
We make these
statements repeatedly,
00:13:33.27\00:13:34.74
God has called
us to do something,
00:13:34.78\00:13:36.48
God is motivating
us, God is directing us,
00:13:36.51\00:13:39.25
you know, we are God's
special people in the world.
00:13:39.28\00:13:43.28
And that's a dangerous
way of thinking about things.
00:13:43.32\00:13:45.92
Absolutely.
00:13:45.95\00:13:47.29
And you know, it
really can impact freedom.
00:13:47.32\00:13:50.79
And you know, I've quoted before
00:13:50.83\00:13:52.19
because it tickles my fancy.
00:13:52.23\00:13:53.56
I remember, not
too long ago now,
00:13:53.60\00:13:55.53
I guess eight, nine years ago,
00:13:55.56\00:13:58.43
I remember
President George Bush Junior
00:13:58.47\00:14:04.07
making a comment.
00:14:04.11\00:14:05.44
This is exactly what he said.
00:14:05.47\00:14:06.81
He says, "God
has blessed America,
00:14:06.84\00:14:08.51
and He couldn't have
blessed more deserving people."
00:14:08.54\00:14:10.75
Right. Wow.
00:14:10.78\00:14:13.05
We'll take a break now,
00:14:13.08\00:14:14.42
and come back for
further discussion at this.
00:14:14.45\00:14:16.28
There are huge ramifications
00:14:16.32\00:14:17.75
on tracking this original papal
00:14:17.79\00:14:21.59
edict or rule for conquest
00:14:21.62\00:14:25.93
and its echoes even today.
00:14:25.96\00:14:27.60
Stay with us.
00:14:27.63\00:14:28.96