Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is your program,
bringing you exciting news,
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updates, evaluations, discussion
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and analysis of religious
liberty events in the US
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and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
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and I'm editor
of Liberty magazine.
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A magazine of over 100 years
dealing with religious liberty
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from a separation of
church and state point of view.
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My guest on the program
is Attorney John Ashmeade.
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And for our viewers'
benefit, I'll explain your job,
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it's a long title
and very important.
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You are the Associate
Director for the Public Affairs
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and Religious Liberty Department
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of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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on the eastern seaboard,
basically the United States.
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For the Atlantic Union. We
call it the Atlantic Union.
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But that's an
inside church designation,
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but you mostly are
dealing with non-Adventist
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and a generalized
religious liberty approach
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by definition.
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There's a lot of
things I can talk with you.
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We've spoken privately
about different things,
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but let's just sort of pick,
cherry pick what's happening
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in the US right now,
it's a very dynamic situation.
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I can start with something
that religious groups have
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seized on for
decades now, the abortion
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or anti-abortion movement.
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How do you see that
playing into religious liberty
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or religious
prerogatives generally?
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Sure.
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You know, I see a
situation where you Protestants
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and Catholics
working very closely together
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on this issue.
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And as you know they are a
significant political block
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in this country.
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But the state of
the law right now
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doesn't support their position.
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And, you know
the state of the law
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has been in place
for quite some time,
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you know, abortion, that
there's a constitutional right
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to abortion and, you
know, religious folks.
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The courts have said that.
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The courts have said that,
but religious folks have been
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fighting that
for quite some time.
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And what's the
Constitution right?
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Explain it as a
lawyer, what is the right?
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There is a right of
privacy, I think it all stems
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from that right of
privacy and, you know,
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the courts have said
that we don't want to be
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in people's bedrooms.
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But there's a certain
zone that we want to give them
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a privacy and I
think the abortion falls
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within that from the
perspective of the courts,
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and they've interpreted
the Constitution to mean that.
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And so, the question is despite
this major political block
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and the power wielded by
Christians in this country,
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their point of view still
has not come to dominating.
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And, you know, I
think this is the testament
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to the
Constitution and the separation
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of powers, and the
fact that, you know,
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the majority can want something,
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and the court can step
in and say, you know what?
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We're going to protect
the rights of the minority.
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So I think in a
sense, you know...
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While as a church we
don't necessarily support
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abortion on demand.
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The issue really is
the court stepping in
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as a check on the
will of the majority.
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And I think in that
sense that is a positive
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for religious liberty.
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Yeah, I can see it
that way, of course,
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from the point of many
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of the religious
anti-abortion activists
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that court
overstepped its bounds
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and legislated from the bench.
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Right.
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So you don't accept, do
you think they really found
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that right in the Constitution?
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Now, there's another contention
carry forward certainly
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by the Christian
groups against gay rights.
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And I remember the court
essentially authorized...
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Its final authorization
of gay behavior came on
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that same reason, reasoning,
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that was Laurence
v. Kansas, wasn't it?
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Where, you know, the gays
were charged with indecent acts
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in their home but it
devolved down the court,
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backed off and said,
they had right to privacy.
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And that just sort of
everything followed from it.
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And you know, I
look at that issues
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a little bit
different, you know.
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For me the real crux
of the matter goes back
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to a decision by Justice Scalia.
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And, you know, where he
sort of changed the dynamic
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in terms of
protecting religious freedom,
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and he said, you know,
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as long as there's a
general law out there...
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This is on the Smith
case. The Smith case.
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As long as
there's general law...
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Peyote case.
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Right, as long
there is general law
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that is not
targeting religion, you know,
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you don't have to
provide that strict,
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you know, review of it that
the court normally would do.
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Most of us working on
religious liberty think
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that was a horrible case.
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It's the worst case
of all time in my view.
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And I've never heard say it
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but you know what
my take on that is.
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It was a further
ignoring of the rights,
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and prerogatives, and
humanity of Native Americans.
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Right. Right.
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It was easy to sweep
away their religious practices
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because it was,
you know, sweat lodge,
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I don't know if it was sweat,
but sweat lodge type ceremony
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of a marginal group
that we sort of chased out
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of a common conversant
to the bad lanes basically.
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And I think it reflected,
you know, the view that,
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you know, I'm going
to protect the majority
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and not be as
concerned with a minority faith,
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but to me, the
heart of religious liberty
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and freedom is being
able to protect the minority
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from the majority whims.
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And I think that
decision reflects
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that point of view where
it was sort of short-sighted,
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he never foresaw a situation
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where the majority
Christian group would,
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you know, face,
you know, a situation
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where their religious
freedoms wouldn't be protected.
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And I think this is what
happens now in a situation
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where, with the recent decision.
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You know, there were
no protections in place
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for Christians
who have objections.
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And I think that
was a mistake by Scalia.
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Yeah.
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Well, there is no question
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that Christian groups in the US,
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at least politically active ones
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have the sense of persecution.
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In fact there was
a book written by...
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The guy that, the brother
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that wrote the
Book of Virtues...
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Bennett. Bennett.
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His brother wrote a
book something about a lion,
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in the lions' den I think.
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And the whole book,
I've read it few years ago,
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and the whole
thing was that Christians
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that have persecuted minority.
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I think that's...
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There's an
element of truth there,
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but it's turning
the world upside down.
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The fact remains that of
all the western countries,
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the US is the most Christian,
the most religiously active,
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and in many ways
more puritanical in its...
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Even at some of
the aspects of society
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as I've told people probably.
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Go to the beach.
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You'll see in an instant
that was still puritanical.
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Hollywood aside,
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it's a perverse
center of culture
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that mold them,
there's no question.
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But the US is prudish compared
to much of the western world.
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Here's what I'll say, I
think Christian minorities face
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some challenges in this country.
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The majority, you know,
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the legislatures
aren't going to...
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Yeah, they're not
going to pass laws
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that affect the
majority of Christians,
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but they will, you know,
pass laws that will prevent,
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you know, a small minority group
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from coming into neighborhoods
and passing out leaflets
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and those kinds of things.
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And what we're seeing
now, clearly in the US
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there's an
unprecedented alliance
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between a faction that's broadly
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representative of Christian,
Catholics and Protestants.
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They sort of have the
inside track to political,
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if not political power,
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then the ear of
the power of brokers.
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So they've come
into their rights,
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so I don't see them
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as being disenfranchised at all.
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And I think the
source of their frustration
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is precisely, what goes with it,
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they're being used to getting
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what they societally
even without a fight.
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Right.
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So the abortion thing
particularly frustrates them
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because it's...
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Again, you and I both know
that the laws notwithstanding,
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you get further
out from the cities
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in the little country areas,
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they often quietly have prayer
even in the public schools.
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The ministers come
in and have Bible class.
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It's not supposed to be allowed
on the current interpretation
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of separation of church
and state, but culturally
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that's the expectation.
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Right. And I think...
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When that stopped,
whoa, freedom is gone,
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but it was never right,
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it just was
they want to do that.
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I think what
stands in their way,
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in the majority of incidences
is the First Amendment
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and how it's interpreted.
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And so we have seen
in the recent years,
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the willingness
to put, you know,
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judges on the
courts, both the appellate
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and the district as
well as Supreme Court
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who will interpret the
Constitution in the way
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that will allow
for more religion
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in the public square
than we've been used to.
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And that is
something to continue to watch
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and to be concerned with.
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Yeah. Okay.
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You do something that nobody
else on this program ever has.
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They've changed the discussion
of the courts activity
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from the Supreme
Court to the lower court.
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And I think it's a
whole different story.
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Right.
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But you actually said something
that I don't agree with.
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Okay.
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We know on the Supreme
Court, there's openly stated
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and belligerent
attempt to stack the deck.
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Sure.
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And I just don't think
it works in their favor.
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There's any number of examples
of someone put in by a faction.
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When they are there,
they are far more moderate
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than they
expect or in some cases
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they appeared to be
taking the opposite view.
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Sure.
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But at the lower
courts, my take is that
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it's increasingly
dominated by secularists
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with antagonism to religion.
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Sure.
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They haven't been able to start.
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Sure.
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You know, I think
it goes back and forth
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between
administration, so when you have
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a Democratic administration
in, you get, you know,
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a number of judges
put into the system
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that reflect that point of view.
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And I think when you have
a republican administration
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you get a number
of conservative judges
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put on these courts.
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Yes, but where's
the evidence that...
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But keep in mind,
keep in the mid that,
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you know, the
vast majority of cases
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are not accepted
by the Supreme Court,
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and so the real Supreme
Court are those appellate judges
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around the country.
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Yes, I know, it's a good point.
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And so, if you know,
these judges are vetted.
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And everyone knows
their political lenience.
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And so, if you put
in a number of judges
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with a certain
arm political linear,
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you're going to get the
outcome that you're looking for.
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And I think that does happen.
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So you see evidence
of conservative judges
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at the lower level?
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I see that.
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I mean, I think, you know
these judges make decisions
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that are business friendly.
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They make decisions...
Oh, in that sense, yes.
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Right. In that sense.
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Predominantly on,
conservative on morality
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and religious
prerogatives, other settlements.
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Right.
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Well, you know,
even if we're dealing
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with the business issue,
morality comes into play.
00:11:27.42\00:11:30.22
And, you know, in
the sense of you taking
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the side of big business
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or you're
protecting the consumer.
00:11:34.39\00:11:36.49
And you see those kinds of
decisions coming into play,
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and that does have an impact.
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And, you know, overtime
it makes people very weary
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and worried
about the government,
00:11:44.87\00:11:47.10
and it makes people
worried about, you know,
00:11:47.14\00:11:49.04
big businesses and
how that's impacting
00:11:49.07\00:11:51.17
their lives and, you know,
00:11:51.21\00:11:53.17
that can have a long term effect
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where they're
looking for someone
00:11:55.81\00:11:57.45
who will come forward and
say, I'm going to protect you,
00:11:57.48\00:12:00.68
follow me, believe in me,
00:12:00.72\00:12:02.55
and I'm going to
fight big business,
00:12:02.58\00:12:04.02
I'm going to
fight big government.
00:12:04.05\00:12:05.75
And then you start to see power
00:12:05.79\00:12:07.79
being centralized in
ways that are troubling.
00:12:07.82\00:12:09.16
No, and your point is correct.
00:12:09.19\00:12:10.53
There is an inordinate
effort to stack the deck,
00:12:10.56\00:12:13.40
it's always been there,
but I think more than usual.
00:12:13.43\00:12:15.96
I just haven't seen the evidence
00:12:16.00\00:12:18.90
on the lower courts
that's right wing stack,
00:12:18.93\00:12:21.80
but probably is in
ways I haven't seen it
00:12:21.84\00:12:24.57
because you can't
notes at only on one level
00:12:24.61\00:12:28.41
and not affect on the other,
but I haven't seen the lower.
00:12:28.44\00:12:32.61
We need to take a break,
00:12:32.65\00:12:34.82
and we'll be back to
continue this discussion.
00:12:34.85\00:12:37.85
And I hope, I don't
disagree with my guest too much.
00:12:37.89\00:12:41.22
I'm quite okay with it.
00:12:41.26\00:12:42.59
But that's why we
want you to watch.
00:12:42.62\00:12:43.96
These things are not as cut
and dried as you might think
00:12:43.99\00:12:47.53
and they all
demand a certain analysis.
00:12:47.56\00:12:51.07
Stay with us.
00:12:51.10\00:12:52.43