Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI180415A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is a program bringing you news, views, discussion, 00:31 and analysis of religious liberty events 00:34 in the US and around the world. 00:36 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine. 00:40 And my guest on this program is Attorney John Ashmeade, 00:44 you're the not long minted Associate Director 00:50 of Public Affairs and Religious Liberty 00:52 for the Adventist Church in the Atlantic Union section, 00:57 which is the northeast of the United States. 00:59 That's correct. That's correct. 01:01 And as I said, you're an attorney. 01:03 So even though you're not long in this position, 01:05 you've had a long association with the law 01:08 and religious liberty, I know that. 01:10 And you and I've had many, many contacts. 01:14 Before the program that we were talking about writers, 01:16 and writing skills, and I didn't bring up poetry, 01:21 I love poetry. 01:22 And there's a poem that, 01:24 that I've often preached on written by William Butler Yeats 01:28 around the time of World War I, 01:30 I think it was called the Second Coming. 01:32 And he said in that poem, he says, "Things fall apart, 01:35 the center cannot hold." 01:38 What do you think about the situation today, 01:40 in particular, in the United States, 01:42 when we look at religious liberty, 01:44 civil liberties, the whole panoply of freedoms 01:47 and the construct that makes things work and enable freedom? 01:51 Sure, you know, a few years ago, 01:54 I looked at a YouTube video with Justice Scalia testifying 01:58 before Congress, and... 02:00 Always very entertaining. Always very entertaining. 02:03 And the fascinating thing was, 02:05 he was talking about really what makes America great. 02:08 And I know that's a theme that's... 02:10 Maybe he suggested the developing theme later. 02:13 Perhaps, but, you know, 02:14 what he talked about was the checks and balances 02:18 that we have in our system, 02:20 the division of government between the legislative, 02:22 the judicial, and the executive. 02:25 And, you know, he pointed to that as something 02:28 that really has held us together 02:30 as a nation unlike other countries. 02:32 And so, you know, 02:34 I thought about that and I said, you know what? 02:36 Let me, let's analyze and look at our country 02:40 in light of what he said 02:41 because I think it's very similar 02:43 to what Ellen G. White talked about. 02:46 'Cause Ellen G. White, 02:47 the visionary prophet that helped to establish 02:51 the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 02:52 And she also had the same view of what made, 02:54 you know, America great as well. 02:56 And so, you know, if we look at our country in light 03:01 of that statement, 03:02 and all the issues that are sort of percolating, 03:05 you know, the subjects like immigration, abortion, 03:07 and all those things, you know, I think that, 03:10 you know, we're still kind of holding together pretty well. 03:13 Things aren't as bad as many people may want them 03:15 to appear to be. 03:17 This is going to be a unique program 03:18 for Liberty Insider. 03:19 Upbeat, no, no, I like to think it's positive, but it's true, 03:24 not everything's bad. 03:26 And you're right, 03:28 if you look at things analytically, 03:30 it's the half... 03:31 The glass half empty or half full. 03:33 I don't think anybody's naive enough to say that, 03:36 you know, it's all sweetness and light. 03:38 By any means, there's a lot of tension. 03:39 You referred to the abortion debate. 03:42 I mean, that's visceral for many people 03:45 and being very divisive. 03:47 So you think it's coming along okay on a certain level? 03:51 You know, I think the system is working, 03:53 I think the system works best when there is that tension, 03:55 I think that's what the founding fathers wanted. 03:58 They wanted rigorous debate to take place. 04:01 They'd, you know, 04:02 because if that's not occurring, 04:04 if there aren't opposing views, then power becomes centralized. 04:07 And I think that's really the danger for us. 04:09 And so, you know, you need a congress 04:12 where there is a strong Democratic Party, 04:14 a strong Republican Party, 04:16 and they're really going at it, you know, with issues, 04:19 and there are times where they're standstill, 04:20 we can't make progress 04:22 because the debate is so intense. 04:23 And, you know, neither side can really gain the advantage. 04:27 I think that keeps us on the straight 04:29 and narrow path. 04:30 And when you have a situation where one party dominates or, 04:33 you know, one branch of government dominates, 04:36 I think that's where we run into problems. 04:38 It's... 04:40 I mean, what you're saying is very true. 04:41 I love the US history. 04:42 And well, I was born in another country 04:45 and came here in my teens, 04:47 and then actually went back to Australia for a while. 04:49 You know, I focused on American history, 04:51 and I found it very interesting whereas Australian history 04:54 which I own, you know, it was fine, my own homeland, 04:56 it was very... 04:57 There wasn't much drama to it, we have a very good history, 05:00 there's just so much going on. 05:02 And, you know, when we get at what you're talking about, 05:05 the way it was set up, 05:07 it's sort of a mixed bag it seems to me. 05:08 On one level, there's more emulation 05:12 or cupping than people recognize 05:14 of the British system. 05:15 They didn't really throw it overboard. 05:17 You know, the House of Lords, the House of Commons is easily 05:20 paralleled by the Congress 05:24 and the Senate and the high court 05:27 in England to say. 05:29 But they bought 05:30 more of a freewheeling attitude toward here. 05:32 Plus consciously, they wanted to reflect 05:36 not so much the wishes, 05:37 but the good and the will of the people filtered through. 05:42 Right. Right? 05:43 Right. But I, yeah... 05:44 Most people don't understand it. 05:46 Ever since Bush v. 05:47 Gore, in 2000, I hear people parroting the idea 05:50 we in a weird democracy. 05:51 No, it's not a democracy in the classic sense. 05:54 These guys were afraid of the people or the bulk 05:58 of the people wanting something reflexively. 06:00 It was designed to thwart their wishes short term, 06:03 at least, the balance of powers 06:07 between Congress or the legislative, 06:11 and the executive, and the judicial 06:13 was designed to slow things down, 06:15 and just thwart the rise to power. 06:17 Right, right, exactly. 06:18 Let me throw in something to get your comment. 06:20 At the same time, 06:22 they had a hankering for the whole world. 06:24 Remember, they offered George Washington 06:26 the kingship of America. 06:27 Right. 06:29 And, you know, to his credit, he turned it down, 06:32 whether it was purely from humility or recognition, 06:38 he would be getting himself into trouble with the people, 06:41 I don't know. 06:43 But it tells me that while they had these high ideals designed 06:46 to, you know, 06:48 to disrupt and to thwart people rising the path. 06:51 Yet right off the bat, 06:52 they were willing to give that power. 06:54 And, maybe it's the contradictions 06:57 of human nature writ large. 06:59 You know, I think when you look, 07:00 you mentioned your homeland of Australia, 07:03 they have a parliamentary system 07:04 where the executive is sort of still align 07:08 with the legislative. 07:09 And so his future or his or her future sort of tied 07:13 to how his political party... 07:15 His future could be same day. He could be out. 07:17 Right, he could be out, and I think, you know, 07:21 the American system in my view is a little bit better 07:24 because you have that independence between the two, 07:27 and you have that rigorous debate 07:29 that takes place between the two. 07:31 And I think that's healthy and good. 07:33 I'll buy that, but my say is different, 07:35 they have different strengths. I'm not buying it. 07:37 Well, we will see, in the US system, 07:42 I know history, 07:43 I don't want to point to present problem 07:45 or even drag up some from the past, 07:47 but this with the presidential power, 07:50 you got four years, love it or leave it. 07:54 And if the power was abused for four years, 07:57 what can you do about it? Right. 07:58 So... 08:00 So it takes care of itself very quickly 08:01 in the British system. 08:02 I like what you're saying, if the power is abused, 08:04 what can you do about it? 08:05 You have the judiciary, 08:07 and yet the legislative branches 08:09 who can intervene and control that power. 08:12 So I think... 08:13 That's what I'm saying all the time. 08:15 Presidents don't always get what they want. 08:18 Yeah, I thought to give you a bit, 08:20 but what I was fishing for... Right. 08:22 Nobody's ever been successfully impeached. 08:24 Right. 08:26 So it's very theoretical, and then in practice, 08:29 especially if the President's party is on site, 08:34 well, then he's untouchable. 08:36 And you and I often speak about religious liberty, 08:39 we talk about the judiciary, 08:41 and I'm bringing this up for a reason. 08:43 In reality, it's a very blunt instrument 08:46 to control executive power, 08:48 has to wait for by and large for stuff 08:51 to come up through the system. 08:53 And then they have to deal with that, and it can, 08:55 of course, has ramifications. 08:56 But no, by my take the Supreme Court is a... 09:03 It responds, it doesn't initiate much. 09:06 And yet the popular view that's being spread around 09:08 is they're legislating from the bench. 09:10 I don't see that. Right. 09:11 So here's what I would say, you know, 09:14 Congress has a significant amount of power 09:17 to control the executive branch. 09:21 Remember, the president runs all the agencies. 09:23 And so, you know, Congress can bring them in, 09:26 have them testify, explain what they're doing. 09:28 There's some oversight that takes place. 09:31 And, you know, so that's another means of controlling 09:34 what the executive branch is doing. 09:37 If the US wants to go to war, 09:38 the president just snaps his fingers, right? 09:40 Well, that's, you know, 09:44 that's an open debate that's been ongoing 09:46 and depending on which party has the power. 09:47 Another debate from the Constitution. 09:49 Right, exactly, exactly. 09:51 Now it's a good system. 09:52 But what I'm facetiously bringing up. 09:56 We're already in a model 09:58 that I think will characterize likely the future, 10:01 especially in relation to what the Bible seems 10:03 to say about end-time events. 10:05 Sure. 10:06 Particularly on the US, but generally in the world, 10:09 those sort of things can easily be enabled in the US 10:11 by just ignoring the Constitution. 10:13 And we're already in a dynamic 10:15 we're on many fronts, not least, 10:16 of which the war powers of the presidency 10:20 which have been assumed. 10:23 The Constitution is not really as operative as people imagine. 10:26 Right. 10:27 I think what you're saying is that, 10:29 you know, one of the branches is shirking 10:31 its responsibilities, I think. 10:32 Right. You're a lawyer. 10:34 And my take on lawyers 10:35 is they live and die on precedent. 10:37 Right. 10:39 And if you do something to get away with it, 10:40 you can more easily get away with it again. 10:42 Right. 10:43 And that's what we're seeing in government, 10:45 not just by the president, 10:46 I'm not picking on our present president 10:48 or any of them, but just observing it, 10:50 there's been a growing presidential power 10:52 because they've just done stuff and gotten away with it. 10:55 The judiciary, not so much, but a little bit. 11:00 And it's interesting that I think the legislators 11:03 have become more and more fractious. 11:07 But they're not really doing as much. 11:10 And yet, you mentioned Ellen White before writing, 11:14 I think, under inspiration to early Adventist. 11:16 She said that one of the worst developments 11:20 that's predicted in the Bible, 11:22 and that she elaborated on the Sunday law 11:24 or in other words, strong religious, 11:26 partisan religious legislation in the US 11:29 will come through the legislature 11:32 when people directly push them. 11:33 Right. 11:35 So at the moment, 11:36 I don't really see that tendency. 11:37 Right. 11:39 No, I don't see that happening right now. 11:40 I think, you know, 11:42 we see some signs 11:43 that should be concerning to us. 11:44 But, you know, the sort of alliance 11:47 that Ellen G. White predicted hasn't necessarily occurred. 11:52 You know, and look, things can, things can happen very quickly. 11:56 We've learned that since 9/11. 11:58 We've learned that since 9/11, but, you know, right now, 12:01 things remain relatively stable. 12:03 And, you know, 12:05 I know that people are predicting some bad things 12:07 and they see some things, 12:08 but they're not necessarily there. 12:10 I think, you know, the system remains intact, you know, 12:15 there still remains a separation of church 12:17 and state that is healthy, 12:19 you know, we are debating that issue in this country 12:22 even more and more each day, 12:23 and trying to figure out the right balance. 12:26 And in any system, 12:28 there are times when you're going to go too far 12:29 to the left, you're going to go too far 12:31 to the right. 12:32 But there, you know, we always sort of balance out, you know, 12:35 I look at this country, 12:37 there are times where you have one party 12:38 dominating the entire system. 12:40 And, you know, 12:41 the American people have a way of remedying that, 12:43 and they go to the polls, and before you know it, 12:46 the president no longer has the Congress behind him. 12:49 And, you know, now he's got to fight 12:52 to get his agenda across 12:54 or, you know, a few years later, 12:56 the makeup of the court changes. 12:59 And, you know, with the president, 13:00 his agenda is impacted by the court as well. 13:04 You know, I think it's easy to prove that the world 13:07 as a whole, if not, 13:09 the United States is in a time of great turmoil, 13:12 and flex, and conflict. 13:15 And, you know, 13:16 I read plenty of books of history, 13:18 and especially the hardcover coffee table ones 13:20 that usually have an overall title. 13:22 And the one that made an impression on me 13:24 was the Age of Revolution. 13:27 I remember one of the book. 13:28 I think we're in the age of revolution. 13:30 Okay. 13:31 Oh, can be overturned, is being overturned rapidly. 13:34 I mean, it's not that many years 13:35 since the Soviet Union gone. 13:37 Right. 13:39 And, you know, in Africa, 13:42 for example, you often see regimes, 13:43 South Africa, who would have imagined 13:45 that repressive apartheid regime could go so quickly, 13:49 and with just barely a whimper. 13:51 And, you know, we write that large. 13:53 It's not impossible that even in the US, well, 13:56 it appears stable now, we could have a radical shift. 13:58 But at the moment, yeah, I think you'll agree. 14:01 The Bible talks about a little time of peace. 14:03 I think we... In some ways we're in that. 14:06 I think, you know, 14:07 what our understanding of prophecy is 14:09 that at some point, the religious viewpoint will, 14:12 it will start to dominate. 14:14 And, you know, the question is, has that really occurred? 14:17 Big question. 14:18 Let's take a break with that question in mind, 14:20 come back, and we'll continue this discussion, 14:23 a very positive, I think, 14:25 practical look at what's happening 14:26 in the United States today. |
Revised 2018-12-24