Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is your program bringing
news, views, information,
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analysis, and today,
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some really good discussion
on religious liberty events.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the program
is Attorney Alan Reinach,
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Executive Director
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of the California
Church State Council,
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and a repeat guest on
this program I should say.
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I'm glad to have you on my
radio show once in a while.
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Yes. And that's
what I was fishing for.
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We work together on many things.
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Sure.
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You're on my radio
program and I'm on yours.
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Freedom is ringing for...
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Yeah, yeah.
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And I depend on you
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and your organization to promote
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Liberty Magazine so...
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Of course.
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It's incestuous as it
gets, yet the good cause.
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Let's talk about something
that's equally as disputatious
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is what we just said.
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We live in an era
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I think where it's hard
to know what is the truth.
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Doesn't the Bible say
something about ever learning
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and never arriving at the truth?
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True.
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And unless you
have spiritual insight,
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I think it's becoming very much
a fact that today you can read,
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you go online, and you can
fill your head full of lizard,
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people, news, and this
and that, the other and...
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What is true anymore?
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There's some
very good online sites
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about the flat earth.
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And the latest,
we were just talking
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before the
filming about airplanes.
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I should have you know that
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there are some
serious people online
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that are quite convinced
the planes run on nothing
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but air that they're
just going through the motions
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to fill it with gas
that runs on compressed air.
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Well... And that they levitate.
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You know, without embarrassing
people I'm close to,
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there are those
that I know in my sphere
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who believe in
the Loch Ness Monster,
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who believe that the
moon landing never occurred,
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you know, of course,
aliens, that's an easy one.
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Right.
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And the irony is this
is happening in the context
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of increased education
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or access to education by
people, not just in the US,
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but in most of the world
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comparative to
what it used to be.
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There're all
sorts of news outlets
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and not just the internet,
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but people seem divorced
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from truth in an
unprecedented manner.
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And in the United States now
we're living through a period
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where it's been
publicly said fake news
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and of course it's defined...
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Depends on who's making
the claim as to what's fake.
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But the net
effect is I don't think
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people are quite sure
about anything anymore.
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Well, you know,
if we can trace it
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back just a step or two,
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postmodernism is really defined
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by a shift away from the logic
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and the reason that
were kind of the center
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of the enlightenment, and
a shift towards experience.
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Well, one of the...
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If it's true...
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If it's true for you.
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And we've had a
public figure saying it,
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"I believe it's
true, therefore it's true.
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If I think it's
true, that makes it true."
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Well...
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That's my reality.
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And what was Rudy
Giuliani's statement?
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You know, there is no truth.
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Yeah.
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Isn't that what he said?
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Something to that effect.
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Of course, we're back to Pilate,
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you know, what is truth. Uh-huh.
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I mean, philosophically,
it's always been the question.
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But truth in the
sense of hard news
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and information about things
that are happening around us,
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I don't think it's ever been
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as unclear in
people's minds as now.
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The problem is that
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we're all
filtering out everything
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through the spin doctors.
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And so whether
you're a conservative
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or you're a liberal,
whether you're a Christian,
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whether you're a secular person,
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you know, you have your sources
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and we're increasingly
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narrowing what we're exposed to.
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Either you're in
the Fox News Camp
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or you're in the MSNBC Camp.
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Well, I don't claim
to be a conservative
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for a liberal in,
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you know, in a...
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Well, you're more widely exposed
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to both sides and most people.
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But I will make the statement
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because I know it
is effect of history.
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Fox Network
comes by way of a man
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that once was an
Australian, Murdoch,
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he's taken out
American citizenship.
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Right.
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But, I mean, his whole
career started in Australia...
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And he had the
Fox Network there,
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and the whole
thing began not as news
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but as biased entertainment.
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It's highly structured
for a certain viewpoint.
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It used to make no pretense,
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not giving you
general information
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or a balanced view on anything.
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And those that don't
agree with the Fox Network
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know that's still
to be true in the US,
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but many others take it as
fact and it's very unfortunate
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and they're not the only ones
but I think they're Exhibit A.
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And the reason I mention it,
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its Exhibit A was
intended to be that way,
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it never was set up
to give you open facts.
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It was a biased, narrow,
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packaged set of
information for entertainment
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as much as anything.
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Well, and, you
know, I agree with that.
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But that's been writ large
in their whole communications.
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That certainly was.
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What Rush Limbaugh...
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Same thing with Rush Limbaugh.
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You know, he
excelled at entertainment.
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Whatever you think
of his perspective,
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you know, he was very...
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He is I think
still very popular,
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very, very entertaining.
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And I think for quite a
while now the US population
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particular have been manipulated
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by what passes for news.
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And it does not escape me,
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I read a lot of articles
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and any number
of public officials
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I've picked up
at different times
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have been reading and studying
Goebbels and the modern advent
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of propaganda techniques.
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So I'm not
trying to invoke Nazism,
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but Nazism put into
practice modern concepts
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of manipulating groupthink.
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You know, what I
would say to both liberals
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and conservatives, Lincoln,
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is beware any time
somebody is peddling fear.
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Fear is one of the most
powerful political tools
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in the arsenal
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and so much of what we
see in our political discourse
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is be afraid, be very afraid.
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Whether it's the
Christians saying,
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"Be afraid of the gays,
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you know, they're the bogeyman,
they're coming to get you."
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Or it's the liberals saying,
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"Be afraid of those
rabid fundamentalists.
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They're coming to get you."
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You know, be very concerned
when people are peddling fear
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'cause the next
thing they're doing
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is they're reaching
into your pocketbook
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and they're raiding your wallet.
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Well, as far as
the fundraiser...
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But, you know, when we
talk about information,
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you have to
talk about the press,
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the role of the press in
a democratically instituted
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system of government,
and it's got a long history.
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I don't know if
you know about this,
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but I've got a book
that I really enjoyed
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about the American Aurora.
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You know about that? I don't.
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It was...
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Franklin's
son-in-law was the editor of it.
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Okay.
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Was a very influential paper
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in the early American experiment
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and it largely was
responsible for Adams,
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the first president Adams,
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bringing in the
Alien and Sedition Act...
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Oh really?
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As an effort to put down
what this newspaper was saying.
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And it's been
interesting for me to...
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Attacks on the
press are part of...
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That's what I'm
trying to bring up.
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Our culture.
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That the press has always
had somewhat of an antagonistic
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relationship to those in
power and the press has always,
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in spite of
what we've heard now,
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been a mixed bag.
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We call it the fourth estate.
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Right.
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It is absolutely essential.
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Look, our founding fathers
believed that it was necessary
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to have an educated
populace, educated voters,
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that's why originally,
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you know, only
landed men could vote.
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They were the only ones
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who felt were educated enough...
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And there's a half truth in it.
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And responsible
enough to exercise the vote.
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There's a half truth in that.
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If without a...
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If people are not informed,
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then votes can skew
towards despotism very easily.
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Sure.
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So it's very important
to have people educated.
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It's very important
for us to educate ourselves
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and to exercise our
rights as citizens to vote.
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Even...
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You know, we think so often,
"Well, my vote doesn't count."
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I live in California, I
know that my vote for president
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doesn't count
because, you know...
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But in the
aggregate it does because...
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That's right.
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The US has a
very low voting rate
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and I sniffed abetted
Australia where I grew up.
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Within
Australia, everybody votes.
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It's required.
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The penalty's not very high,
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it's like less
than a speeding ticket,
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but it tends to
make everybody vote
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so you get a reflective decision
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of the whole population.
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It's not true in the US...
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No.
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It's a distinct minority,
you put someone in the office.
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Well, I remember, you
know, George Carlin, you know,
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the comedian, you know,
saying, "Don't blame me.
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I didn't vote."
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Well, no, you are to
blame if you didn't vote.
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And I'm going to
put myself into it now
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but as to make another point.
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As I mentioned in Australia,
you are required to vote,
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but there's long been
a religious exemption,
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and I used to
get the fine notice,
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and I would just rather
have religious principles
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why I didn't vote
and they dismissed it.
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So it's not a
despotism in that sense,
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but I like the idea
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of requiring full participation.
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Well, I rather think
that if you are religious,
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you should take
your obligations to vote
00:10:14.31\00:10:17.65
for seriously.
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You know, but, no,
what my point is, look,
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a free press is
absolutely essential to...
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I believe so.
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To a free and
democratic society.
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We've got to
have a free press...
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And it's not necessary
that the press be always honest
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or nonpartisan.
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As long as you've got a
waterfront of press opinions,
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then knowledgeable
reading people can read this
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and make up their mind.
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Look.
00:10:44.37\00:10:45.71
But at the moment, the idea
is being promulgated that that
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if they're
presenting fake news, which,
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you know, you can argue that,
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they're not
allowed in our society.
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I mean, the idea that the press
should only say what the powers
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that be like, that again
that leads you to a bad point.
00:10:57.65\00:11:00.89
I'm going to give you a
definition of fake news.
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Fake news is anybody's
story or perspective...
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That you don't agree
with. That you don't agree with.
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It's fake news.
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Come on.
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But I'll throw in something else
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that I've observed
and I think it's very bad.
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The whole western economy
has shifted in recent years
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with the different
economic collapses and so on.
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You know, I edited a
magazine, print is in trouble.
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Right.
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Not Liberty I hope
00:11:26.65\00:11:27.98
because it's a targeted magazine
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toward certain people that
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they're not going to see it
otherwise it's given to them,
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to the legislators and
thought leaders and so on.
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But the whole media
apparatus is suffering,
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whether it's print, you know,
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people don't read
like they used to,
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and if it's television,
00:11:44.47\00:11:45.80
you know, it's the
Internet or some other way,
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they don't necessarily
watch formal network TV anymore
00:11:48.40\00:11:51.91
and their budgets are
dropping like a stone and the...
00:11:51.94\00:11:57.81
What's one of the...
What's that agency with...
00:11:57.85\00:11:59.18
Christian Science Monitor.
00:11:59.21\00:12:00.88
Right, gone.
00:12:00.92\00:12:02.25
That used to be one of
the biggest news outlets,
00:12:02.28\00:12:04.75
their news service.
00:12:04.79\00:12:06.52
And I've noticed all of
them are going down to the point
00:12:06.55\00:12:08.79
where they
basically just bucket brigade
00:12:08.82\00:12:11.13
what they've given
by the authorities.
00:12:11.16\00:12:12.79
You and I go to
different government events
00:12:12.83\00:12:14.93
and there's always a handout
at the door in Washington
00:12:14.96\00:12:18.10
and I get that handout
00:12:18.13\00:12:19.50
and I can
guarantee the next day I read
00:12:19.53\00:12:21.10
in the newspaper
report of that event
00:12:21.14\00:12:22.87
and it's word for
word what they've given.
00:12:22.90\00:12:26.01
So we don't have investigative
journalism like we used to,
00:12:26.04\00:12:29.21
we don't have
00:12:29.24\00:12:30.58
the tough questions being asked.
00:12:30.61\00:12:32.05
This is the great irony.
00:12:32.08\00:12:33.55
If there's anything
fake about the news,
00:12:33.58\00:12:35.82
that's what the powerbrokers
want everyone else to know,
00:12:35.85\00:12:38.85
it's just
superficial simple stuff.
00:12:38.89\00:12:41.79
Well...
00:12:41.82\00:12:43.16
I'd rather go back to
where the press is worrying,
00:12:43.19\00:12:44.76
and troubling,
and going and asking,
00:12:44.79\00:12:49.03
you know, the hired help
in the wealthy men's home.
00:12:49.06\00:12:52.23
What's going on here?
00:12:52.27\00:12:54.30
Sounds like the
National Enquirer,
00:12:54.34\00:12:55.77
but that's another story.
00:12:55.80\00:12:57.91
Well, you know, I do think that
00:12:57.94\00:13:00.91
investigative
journalism has suffered,
00:13:00.94\00:13:02.94
but I think
there's some wonderful
00:13:02.98\00:13:04.61
investigative journalism
that's still being done.
00:13:04.65\00:13:07.15
Some, but the
phenomenon has shifted.
00:13:07.18\00:13:09.08
I'm talking
about in the aggregate.
00:13:09.12\00:13:10.99
There's always
particular exceptions.
00:13:11.02\00:13:13.32
You know, but we in
America have another
00:13:13.36\00:13:16.12
very basic
problem here, Lincoln,
00:13:16.16\00:13:17.99
which is that we
have virtually no memory.
00:13:18.03\00:13:21.53
We have no historical memory.
00:13:21.56\00:13:23.77
We are the new world
and everything is new
00:13:23.80\00:13:26.84
and everything is grand.
00:13:26.87\00:13:28.20
Working back to
the education system.
00:13:28.24\00:13:29.57
You know, and so our
ability to put things in context
00:13:29.60\00:13:34.21
and to see what's
happening in context...
00:13:34.24\00:13:37.01
You know, I have
tried to instill in my kids,
00:13:37.05\00:13:39.71
if you want to...
00:13:39.75\00:13:42.48
If you want to be
part of shaping the nation,
00:13:42.52\00:13:47.89
shaping the future,
00:13:47.92\00:13:49.26
you have to have a grasp
of history because otherwise,
00:13:49.29\00:13:52.49
you're just reacting
and you don't have a context
00:13:52.53\00:13:57.00
to be deliberate about
00:13:57.03\00:13:58.83
where are we going
00:13:58.87\00:14:00.94
and how do we
understand modern society.
00:14:00.97\00:14:04.24
And you've heard me in full cry
00:14:04.27\00:14:06.04
even when we're
talking about religious history
00:14:06.07\00:14:09.21
and the origins
of religious liberty
00:14:09.24\00:14:11.88
and Protestantism and so on.
00:14:11.91\00:14:15.55
When you learn
US history for that,
00:14:15.58\00:14:17.55
it starts with
the Mayflower pilgrims
00:14:17.59\00:14:19.39
and there's nothing before.
00:14:19.42\00:14:21.46
You have to know antecedents
to understand the present.
00:14:21.49\00:14:23.86
So I agree with you absolutely.
00:14:23.89\00:14:25.99
We need to take a break now.
00:14:26.03\00:14:27.43
But we'll be back
shortly to continue
00:14:27.46\00:14:29.46
this interesting discussion
00:14:29.50\00:14:31.63
of what role the
press plays and could play
00:14:31.67\00:14:35.14
and should play in our freedoms.
00:14:35.17\00:14:36.57