Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI180412B
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00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider,
00:07 before the break with Alan Reinach. 00:12 You just brought up the fact that many big firms 00:17 particularly are sort of inserting 00:20 weaselly questions in there to fair it out. 00:23 Well, it's not weaselly, they want... 00:25 Well, but they're doing it with a bad intention. 00:28 With my son, I've been with him 00:29 while he's filled this out. 00:30 I know what they're doing to try to flush out 00:32 whether or not you want accommodation. 00:35 Let's be blunt, Lincoln. 00:38 Wage working people in America are not human, 00:41 they are widgets in the corporate machine. 00:45 And they don't look at your personality, 00:47 they don't look at your gifts, 00:49 they just want people who will obey, obey, obey, 00:54 follow the rules, you know... 00:56 Yes, and I know, I see the questions. 00:58 Color between the lines... 00:59 And they come out in at any number of wages, 01:01 will you do what we say 01:03 and not question authority and so on? 01:05 They want you to be available seven days a week, 01:08 you know, jump how high? 01:10 Target is terrible this way. 01:13 Target refused to hire my son, 01:15 who had a positive work history from when he was in school. 01:20 They were hiring summer job... 01:22 Hiring teenagers for summer jobs, 01:24 they don't give them more than maybe 12 hours a week. 01:27 So why was it significant that he wouldn't work 01:30 one out of the seven days a week? 01:33 And that was the reason 01:34 that the store manager would not hire him. 01:37 After the assistant manager thought he was an upstanding, 01:41 respectful, well-spoken, you know, 01:44 had a good employment history, I mean, 01:47 he was perfectly hirable and they rejected him 01:50 because of one day out of the week, which is... 01:52 And they said that? They said that. 01:54 They were totally ridiculous. 01:56 Now we didn't want to end up filing that. 01:58 I told him, "You could make your whole summers, you know, 02:00 just sit with me for 15-20 minutes, 02:03 we'll file..." 02:04 But I wasn't going to do it for him, 02:05 you know, how parents are. 02:07 Kids have to show some initiative, you know. 02:10 Yeah. 02:12 I'll throw it in for discussions like 02:14 because you and I 02:16 have other thoughts on this topic. 02:18 But I wonder sometimes if it hasn't worsened 02:21 in the workplace because of the weakening, 02:25 most particularly under Reagan of the trade union situation. 02:28 Well, you know... 02:30 Workers rights are not defended generally as they once were. 02:34 You know, this is kind of a mixed bag for us, Lincoln. 02:38 It's true that union rights are weaker than they were. 02:43 Collective bargaining agreements often make it 02:46 much more difficult to accommodate 02:49 a Sabbath observance as schedule. 02:52 If you don't have the seniority, 02:54 it can be very difficult to work around that. 02:56 We have a case right now against AT&T. 03:00 Our client was hired in a wireless store 03:04 and because of seniority rules, 03:07 it was very difficult to accommodate him there 03:09 and he wound up being fired for attendance issues. 03:14 What AT&T did not do was say, "Oh, well, 03:17 it's kind of hard to accommodate you here, 03:19 but we have all these call centers 03:20 with 10 zillion people in them and, you know, 03:23 you can try your hand there and get swapped, 03:26 you know, 'cause there's more people to swap with 03:28 if you have an unfavorable schedule 03:30 and it's going to be a lot quicker 03:32 before you earn enough seniority 03:34 to get a favorable schedule." 03:36 And he'd been at a call center before 03:38 and had been accommodated. 03:40 But, you know, the rule is well, you know, 03:43 "We have a rule, you can't change jobs, 03:45 can't transfer 03:47 until you've been here for six months." 03:48 And they managed to fire him 03:50 before he'd been there for six months. 03:51 So, you know... 03:52 Well, then tell me, another question. 03:57 And our Seventh-day Adventist heritage is brought with it 04:00 a deep suspicion of the role of trade unions. 04:04 And so, you know, that's what I was referring to. 04:07 There's good reasons for someone 04:09 with an individual conscience position 04:11 to not deliver that 04:13 to the disposition of a trade union 04:15 that in its own way may restrict your rights. 04:18 You know, I have to say, Lincoln, 04:20 I think that Adventist church 04:24 has been one-sided here. 04:26 When I read Ellen White, I read her to have, 04:32 you know, concerns about trade union certainly, 04:35 but also concerns about the abuse of corporate power 04:38 and consolidation of corporations. 04:40 And we need to keep that in mind 04:42 because we tend to be 04:44 one-sided in our application of that advice. 04:46 Exactly. 04:48 And clearly there is 04:49 considerable oppression of labor 04:52 from the corporate side. 04:53 And the Bible that I read 04:55 give us one of the clear markers 04:58 of the end times that the workers' 05:00 wages are held back by fraud. 05:02 Right. 05:03 In James 5. Right. 05:05 But another thing that I sometimes wonder 05:08 hasn't skewed it against 05:10 religious accommodation of these sates 05:11 and I don't know if how many with right to work laws. 05:15 So the workers' rights community 05:16 has long been opposed to these right to work laws, 05:20 there's been a real push for just cause. 05:24 You know, the problem is 05:27 we treat labor as a commodity, 05:30 you know, we don't treat people as... 05:34 You know, we don't value people. 05:36 You have large corporations, for example, 05:38 that depend upon the quality of their workforce 05:42 for their entire economic model, 05:45 like the large delivery firms, 05:47 and yet they treat their workers 05:49 like their widgets and they will throw them out, 05:52 they're just numbers and what have you. 05:55 It's really... 05:56 The way we treat people, there's... 05:57 No wonder the Bible 05:59 rails against the oppression of labor 06:02 in the last days. 06:03 It is a sign of the last days. 06:05 Yeah. 06:07 And there's not too many discussions that I've heard 06:10 on the merits of capitalism versus communism, 06:14 which is discredited and largely gone. 06:17 But we tend to think, it's gone, it's discredited, 06:20 capitalism is great. 06:21 There's elements of capitalism 06:23 that are distinctly unchristian, 06:25 especially the way it's carried forward, 06:26 and I think this is one part of it. 06:28 It shouldn't be in pursuit of money, 06:31 shouldn't be used to drag and to drag down 06:34 or oppress the rights of an individual. 06:36 Well... 06:38 The Bible says that, "Workman is worthy of his hire." 06:41 To me, there is a fatal flaw in the way capitalism 06:44 is currently established here in the United States. 06:48 And that is that the rights of capital are supreme 06:54 as against the rights of labor. 06:57 You know, the workers are the ones 07:00 who are actually producing the profits 07:03 that the people who have the capital 07:05 get to sit back and not work for it, 07:07 invest and enjoy 07:09 the fruits of somebody else's labor. 07:12 Now it sounds very communist or socialist to say that, 07:17 but that's just a dynamic structural fact, 07:20 it's nothing to do with ideology. 07:22 But I think morally the Bible does speak to this, 07:26 we need to be careful not to be, 07:28 in the case of employer, not to be abusive toward the... 07:33 The trust relationship should exist. 07:35 Well, look. 07:36 I think there are other models that a free society 07:40 and a free economy can have that better balance 07:44 the interest of capital and the workforce 07:48 that reward labor for their productivity. 07:53 You know, what we've had in the last generation 07:55 is the hollowing out of the middle class. 07:57 The rich get richer 07:59 and the working class gets poorer, 08:01 it used to be that, you know, one... 08:05 You know, the head of household, 08:06 the man could support the family. 08:09 It can't happen anymore. 08:11 They're accredited on two incomes typically. 08:12 And two incomes are still struggling 08:14 to support the family in many cases. 08:16 And, you know, I don't know that 08:18 that's any master plan, 08:19 but I think from a point of morality, 08:21 we need to resist the tendency that that's created to, 08:25 if not mistreat, then to disregard 08:27 the rights of the worker. 08:29 And back to our starting point, 08:31 litigation to support moral and religious stands by people 08:36 I think it's suffering because of this, isn't it? 08:38 Well, look. 08:40 I'd like to make one point here before we close this out 08:43 because there are a lot of Christian organizations 08:45 that are very belligerent. 08:47 "You know, you better do what we say is right 08:50 or we're going to beat you up in court." 08:51 Our approach, I have always called biblical peacemaking. 08:55 We have conflicts, 08:57 we encourage companies to do the right thing, 08:59 we express our confidence 09:02 that they will do the right thing, 09:04 if they get a letter from our lawyer, 09:05 they know what's going to happen if they don't. 09:07 We don't need to rub their noses in it. 09:09 But, you know, what we like to do 09:10 then is try to get their attention, 09:13 get their cooperation, 09:15 resolve conflict as early as possible. 09:19 But God has given us 09:20 a legal system to resolve conflict. 09:24 Absolutely. 09:25 And, you know, I'd kind of like to close with this illustration 09:29 of what turn the other cheek means 09:31 because I think many people think 09:33 it means being a doormat. 09:35 Well, far from it. 09:37 You know, our natural tendency 09:40 when we get to conflict is fight or flight. 09:42 Either we're going to punch somebody back 09:45 or we're going to run away. 09:47 Well, if we turn the other cheek, 09:49 we're not doing either one, we're not running away, 09:52 we're not hitting them back, 09:54 we're really confronting their wrongdoing 09:56 and giving an opportunity to rethink it. 09:59 And I think that's what we do 10:01 when we bring these religious freedom claims. 10:04 It's a matter of confronting what a company has done wrong. 10:09 The only way they're going to make it right... 10:11 They're not going to admit anything, 10:14 maybe they'll put up some money to settle a case, 10:17 but in rare occasions, 10:18 we actually get to accomplish more than that, 10:21 and they'll do training and we'll get somewhere 10:27 in terms of eradicating discrimination. 10:31 It's amazing how often the Bible uses 10:33 what amounts to legal imagery, 10:35 as the accuser of the brethren standing off to the side 10:39 when someone's brought before the great judge. 10:41 Of course, he's a judge but also 10:45 we have an advocate Jesus. 10:47 And I think that gives some justification, 10:51 some background to what happens every day 10:54 somewhere in the world 10:55 and particularly in the United States, 10:57 where people depend upon lawyers and advocates 11:01 against the secular legal system 11:03 to uphold their profession of faith. 11:05 It is important, it's something that we do gladly 11:09 and we take full advantage 11:11 of whatever legal help there can be. 11:13 And of course, when all of that is exhausted, 11:16 we serve the Lord and our legal authority 11:19 is before Him. 11:20 We should never lose sight of that. 11:21 But like Paul using his citizenship as a tool 11:26 if not a weapon to proclaim throughout the Roman Empire, 11:29 so too we can use the Lord to our advantage. 11:32 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2018-11-29