Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI180411B
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00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break with the guest, 00:09 Attorney Alan Reinach, I nearly said your full title, 00:15 Church State Council from California. 00:17 We were talking about greatness. 00:19 Indeed. What makes America great again. 00:21 Yeah, we all want to be part of greatness, 00:23 be on the winning team, to be part of a great nation. 00:26 And I think, at the moment, 00:28 the United States is legitimately reaching 00:31 toward what makes us great. 00:34 Unfortunately, a few people that exemplify 00:36 some of the less great aspects, 00:38 they have come out of the woodwork. 00:39 But greatness is not a bad thing to aim at, is it? 00:42 Well, look, we certainly have seen 00:44 in the last election cycle 00:46 that it's great political rhetoric. 00:49 You know, it's very effective political rhetoric. 00:52 You know, there's no ifs, ands, or buts about that. 00:55 And just like we can. 00:56 I mean, most political slogans, 00:58 they were very designed to unleash potential. 01:01 But let's put this back in the prophetic setting 01:04 because in Revelation 13, 01:06 the same country that has these wonderful 01:10 aspirations of separation of powers, of the rule of law, 01:14 of respect for civil and religious freedom, 01:17 its own sense of pride in its Christian heritage 01:22 and its greatness ultimately leads it 01:25 to becoming a persecuting power 01:27 and enforcing the mark of the beast. 01:29 Now how do you get from these wonderful 01:32 lamb-like principles 01:33 to what can only be described 01:36 as dragon-like satanic behavior? 01:39 And I think that what it is clearly 01:42 in the pages of Scripture 01:45 is this blending of faith and patriotism. 01:51 More around political power, yeah. 01:53 It's a pride, 01:54 and it's a blending of civil and religious authority 01:59 because as persecution has to do 02:02 with the government making value judgments 02:04 between religions 02:06 which has always been forbidden to our government 02:10 to make value judgment. 02:11 Because it's so fraught. 02:13 Different governments are going to decide differently 02:15 of what is truth and error. 02:16 They're not competent. 02:17 The Supreme Court in the case of Trump versus Hawaii upheld 02:21 the so-called Muslim ban, 02:24 totally ignoring that we clearly had made 02:27 a value judgment as between 02:30 the majority religion, Christianity, 02:33 and holding people from Islamic countries suspect. 02:38 Yeah. 02:39 You know, these are valued judgments. 02:43 This is something that our government 02:45 is constitutionally prohibited from doing. 02:48 Where this eventually leads whether you agree 02:50 with the outcome of Trump against Hawaii or not, 02:53 where this eventually leads is 02:56 to the end result of persecution. 02:59 Yeah. 03:00 And yeah, they're hedging their bets. 03:03 We know that there's an attempt 03:05 to categorize an entire religious group. 03:09 And today, we might be comfortable 03:10 with that group, 03:11 but the political wind could shift, 03:14 and it'll be another group that's seen as inimical 03:16 to the government's interests. 03:17 So we don't want to go down that trail. 03:19 We've got a history of war within the Christian history. 03:25 In our own country, you know, in recent years, 03:28 we have this small group called Westboro Baptist Church 03:31 that goes and pickets funerals. 03:33 There's an article on that. 03:34 You know, and they're extremely hostile to gays 03:38 and what have you, and are they representative 03:41 of the larger Christian community? 03:42 No. 03:43 Is Isis representative of the entire Muslim community? 03:46 No. 03:47 Are they a real problem, a real threat? 03:50 Of course they are. 03:52 But you know, to say 03:53 that all Muslims are terrorists, 03:56 I mean, I had a case... 03:57 No, that's clearly a gross overreach. 04:00 I had a case recently, Lincoln, where an Armenian Orthodox 04:06 Christian was mistaken for Muslim 04:08 and was harassed and run out of his job 04:12 because they were, you know... 04:13 And the same with the Sikhs, 04:14 as you know, more commonly confused, yeah. 04:16 Yeah. 04:18 And yet the Sikhs have their own history. 04:20 I asked somebody from India recently. 04:25 "You know, how do you see the Sikhs in India?" 04:27 And I knew the answer because I've been 04:29 to the Sikh Golden Temple in India, 04:31 and just a few months before, 04:33 there was a rebellion in the north, 04:36 and the Indian Army 04:39 actually invaded their temple, profaned it. 04:41 Oh, really? 04:43 And that led directly to Indira Gandhi 04:45 being assassinated by one of the Sikhs. 04:46 Okay, this goes back a few years. 04:47 So this person said, "Oh, yes. 04:49 We see that was quite militaristic. 04:52 But not in the same way as Islam 04:55 and the Islamic actions." 04:57 So it's not good for one group to be mixed 05:00 in with the other in this sort of catch-all prejudice. 05:05 And so we've got to defend all groups, 05:07 as you know, I'll reiterate it. 05:09 Religious Liberty is for all, or ultimately, it's for none. 05:13 I see it as you just can't start carving away 05:16 a few religious groups that you're suspicious 05:19 of even with good cause. 05:21 We have to... 05:23 If we're going to talk about America's greatness, 05:25 we have to talk about... 05:26 It was pluralism. It was pluralistic. 05:28 Overcoming America's original sin. 05:31 America's original sin is racism. 05:34 It was against the Native Americans, 05:36 and our treatment of Native Americans, 05:38 by the way, has also been characterized as genocide, 05:42 that we're a post genocidal nation, 05:45 which is a pretty shocking thought. 05:47 But, you know, how we deal with the issues of race, 05:53 with minorities, with, 05:56 you know, whether it's discrimination 05:57 on the basis of national origin, 05:59 or anything else, this is America's original sin. 06:04 And if we want, if we aspire to true greatness, 06:09 we have to confront our original sin. 06:11 You know, the Bible, 06:13 of course speaks to what is really great. 06:15 Solomon was great 06:17 because he knew God and could understand 06:19 the difference between good and evil. 06:20 And Ellen White, 06:22 writing to Seventh-day Adventist once, 06:25 actually to editors, she says, "Call no man great 06:27 who hasn't chosen God and His ways." 06:31 And I think of Jesus' statement. 06:34 "He who would be great among you, 06:35 let him be as a servant." 06:36 Yes, but I think, I mean, 06:39 I can make a good argument that ultimately, 06:41 America's greatness, 06:43 the greatest part of its story 'cause it's not all great, 06:45 but its greatness derived from its Christian morality 06:49 put into action, a good nation. 06:52 Well, but if we're going to talk about America 06:56 in terms of being Christian, 06:58 I think we have to distinguish 07:00 between the Christian people and the nation. 07:05 So to me, kind of the sine qua non of Christianity 07:09 is the Sermon on the Mount. 07:11 But I don't think that 07:12 there are many Christians among us, 07:15 you know, I hesitate to say any, 07:17 who would contend that America as a Christian nation 07:22 should vigorously implement the teachings of the Sermon 07:25 on the Mount, 07:26 that in our relations to other countries, 07:28 we should turn the other cheek, for example. 07:29 Well, now you are getting into what I've... 07:31 The government was designedly secular 07:35 for any number of reasons. 07:37 But in this regard, I think, out of respect for religion. 07:41 But it worked well 07:43 when a critical mass of the population 07:49 was informed by a Christian morality, 07:51 a Christian sensibility. 07:54 I mean, there's any number of statements 07:55 that the framers expected that. 07:58 Obviously, we don't buy 08:00 into the spurious historical argument 08:02 that it was intended to be a Christian nation structurally 08:05 and governmentally, and so on. 08:07 Not at all. 08:08 In the founding generation, 08:11 there was acknowledged by many of the leaders, 08:14 religious freedom for Jews, for Catholics, for Muslims, 08:17 you know, that we had this broad concept. 08:20 And really, this kind of, I call it live and let live. 08:24 You know, we all have the right to live 08:28 according to our own values, 08:30 our own beliefs, not just to have them 08:33 but to live according to them as long 08:35 as we're living in peace 08:36 and not infringing on the rights of the others. 08:37 And I've got to be politically, at least, historically honest. 08:40 I believe that live and let live derived 08:43 from the Enlightenment 08:44 secular principles, and from deism. 08:47 Well, I think the Golden Rule 08:49 had something to do with it also. 08:50 Well, that's why 08:52 the good Christians went along with it. 08:53 But I don't think it came from that. 08:55 What I mean is it was an outside force 08:57 that spread that and it took root in the US 09:00 and it's worked to the advantage of old faith 09:03 and of religious freedom. 09:05 Well, if I can express a little different view... 09:08 Of course, you can. 09:09 You know, look, Jefferson was expressing, 09:14 you know, the broad understanding 09:16 when he talks about, 09:18 you know, God-given inalienable rights 09:20 endowed by our Creator. 09:22 You know, he wasn't expressing 09:24 a pure enlightenment rationalist view. 09:27 I could say the influence. And he wasn't a pure Christian. 09:30 No, he wasn't, which is why I say, 09:33 you know, he is writing for the society, 09:36 not for himself. 09:37 But he was the moral hero, 09:39 I think, one of the moral heroes 09:40 of this new experiment, there's no question. 09:41 You know, so there was a shared... 09:43 You've said it earlier in the show, 09:44 Protestant ethos 09:46 that founded our culture of rights, 09:49 our respect for law, etcetera, was based on Protestant ethos. 09:54 No, absolutely. 09:55 I mean... 09:57 We're just differing on some terminology, 09:59 but religion has been the bedrock, 10:03 social environment that this country, 10:05 the US became great on. 10:07 But self-interest is not a Christian value. 10:11 You know, selfishness is kind of, 10:15 in some sense, the original sin 10:17 that the scripture really rails against. 10:20 "Self-sacrifice, taking up your cross, 10:22 and following after me," Jesus says. 10:24 You know, that's kind of core to the gospel. 10:27 So if America aspires to be great, 10:31 I think humility is in order 10:33 and return to some of these first principles 10:35 of the rule of law, separation of powers, 10:38 of respect for civil and religious freedom. 10:44 I often spend time comparing notes 10:46 with my predecessor, Clifford Goldstein, 10:49 and I know that on one occasion, 10:50 I hit pay dirt with him when I mentioned a poem called, 10:53 "Ozymandias," king of kings, and it's a poem that says, 10:57 "Out in the desert, abandoned by all, 11:00 and with the drifting sands around, 11:02 there's a huge visage, 11:03 and underneath a sign, it says, 'I am Ozymandias, 11:06 king of kings, you know, fear and trembling,'" 11:09 And it says, "Nothing stirs but the desert birds." 11:12 When we talk about greatness, 11:14 something like that I think puts it 11:15 in a certain perspective because what is great. 11:19 We've toned down statues all over the US of great heroes 11:23 of the wrong cause in the past. 11:25 And others, like Saddam Hussein, 11:27 not only the statue but the very existence 11:29 has been snuffed out by revisionism. 11:32 Ellen White, speaking to Seventh-day Adventists says, 11:34 "Call no man great 11:36 who hasn't had the wisdom to choose loyalty to God." 11:40 That, at the end of the day, 11:41 is all that can constitute true greatness. 11:44 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2018-11-26