Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is your
program bringing you news,
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views, information,
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and a lot of analysis
on religious liberty events
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in the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
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and I'm Editor
of Liberty magazine,
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and my guest on this
program is lawyer and my friend,
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I know sometimes
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those might be in
conflict, Alan Reinach.
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I'm not your lawyer,
but I am you know friend.
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No, you're a good, good guy,
and you're executive director
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of the California-based
Church State Council.
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Let's talk about
something really exciting
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and something that
will get everybody hot
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and bothered at
least in the United States.
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There's a lot of talk lately
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about making
America great again.
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Indeed.
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I love history, and you know,
I could go back in history,
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and America's
been "great" sometimes,
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sometimes you can put the
quotation marks underneath,
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some as lowercase
G, sometimes capital.
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It's been a mixed bag,
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but, you know,
what is this greatness
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that the people
are hungering for
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because there's no question,
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this is tapped
into something deep
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in the United
States culture I think.
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Well, it certainly has, Lincoln.
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But think
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that it is very
indistinct, very, undefined,
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and the reason I wanted to
have this conversation with you
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is because I
think we really need
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to take a hard look
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at what American
values really are.
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I think first and
foremost of the Bill of Rights
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of
representative government rights
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that are God-given rights
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and alienable rights
that belong to individuals
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and the government is in
place to protect those rights,
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that's, you know, part of the...
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Do you think most
people in the United States
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even know what those rights are?
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Well, you know, the
ACLU, favorite punching bag
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of the Christian right,
they took the Bill of Rights...
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And of the right generally.
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They took the Bill
of Rights door-to-door
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some years back to
see, you know, do a survey
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and see what people thought.
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And I tell you,
the results were,
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they wouldn't get voted today.
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I know. No.
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And people were
not familiar with them.
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And most of the
surveys I've seen that
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in between
presidential elections,
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only a very small
percentage of people
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can even name the
sitting president.
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I think for a number of
reasons that's not true.
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I've gone to
high school classes,
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and I'll ask them,
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"How many members
of the Simpsons family
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can you name?"
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And then I'll ask them,
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"How many of the
First Amendment rights
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can you name?"
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Well, let me quote a Bible text.
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They know all about
Simpsons and they do...
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Free speech to the US
and it's self understanding
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of its founding principles.
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This is my people,
perish for lack of knowledge.
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And if the US is to go down,
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and you've got to face
historical facts, one day,
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this great country
is an imperial power,
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will go down,
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that's just the nature
of the stream of history.
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But we don't want
that day to be tomorrow,
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or certainly not today.
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But I think
little self-knowledge
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is an order, and
it's very troubling to me
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having lived most
of my life in the US,
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how little Americans
know about their own system.
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So it's not just
having these rights,
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but it's how we
as a nation project
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the value of these
rights of these freedoms
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around the world.
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Little more than a decade ago,
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Senator John
McCain spoke for a dinner,
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a religious liberty
dinner on Capitol Hill,
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that Liberty magazine
was one of the sponsors of.
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And, you know, as
we're sitting here,
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of course, our
nation is mourning
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his recent passing.
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Senator McCain was very direct
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and very eloquent
in insisting that,
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you know,
America's greatness is tied
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to our projecting,
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these values of
freedom and democracy
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around the world,
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and not just
pursuing naked self-interest
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and national security.
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Absolutely. I
agreed with that speech.
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It was arguably the best speech
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we ever had at
the Liberty dinner,
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and very substantial.
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I mean, it
wasn't just kind words
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and we appreciate
them on that occasion.
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But it was well
thought out, it was logical,
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and it was full of
projecting a morality
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abroad rather than power.
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It wasn't a
power speech, was it?
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And I'll just put in
a plug for our listeners
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to go look it up on my
website at ChurchState.org,
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if you search for McCain,
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you'll find the
entire text of the speech
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at our Churchstate website.
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We were talking
about this program,
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you wanted to read it aloud.
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I didn't oppose you on
it. It was very inspiring.
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But, you know,
look, I want to put this
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in a biblical context.
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You know, you and I
are Seventh-day Adventists,
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and we believe
that the Revelation 13,
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mark of the beast passage,
that the nation portrayed there
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that will eventually
deliver the mark of the beast
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is the United States,
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and we don't
have time to explain
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why we believe
that, but it's described
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with two very
unique characteristics.
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First, having lamb-like horns,
but also speaking as a dragon.
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Now the lamb of course is
a symbol of Christ himself.
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When I grew up...
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The dragon is
symbol of the devil.
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Whenever I saw that illustrated,
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it was always a bison
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which is not like a
lamb-like, but he's sort
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of a very nice-looking creature.
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But as a few
unfortunate tourists
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at Yellowstone had
found out that there was,
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I think, they
were Japanese tourists,
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they posed in front of a bison
for a selfie, and he got them.
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They're not as
benign as they appear.
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Well, you know, I've often
said in explaining that passage,
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ladies, it's not true
that all men are beasts,
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but it is true
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that all nations
are beasts, you know?
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Well, yes, that's
the way they acted
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or often portrayed in the Bible.
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So I...
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Look, I think.
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These leopards,
and bears, and...
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Right.
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The biblical
imagery I think is fair.
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United States is not all great,
and we're not all terrible.
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We have aspirations
that are Christ-like,
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that are
lamb-like, that have to do
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with how we relate to power.
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Horns are a symbol of power.
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Two horns are a
symbol of a separating
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or division of power.
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And we have, for example...
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There's a lot of
criticism about the fact,
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"Oh, well the
separate church and state."
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It's not written
in our Constitution.
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Well, neither is the
phrase, "Separation of powers."
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But this is what
our Constitution does,
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not what it says.
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It divides power
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among the
branches of government.
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We also divide
power among federal state
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and local government.
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We also recognize the
institutional separation
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between the institution
of religion of the church,
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and its schools, and etcetera,
its churches, and governments.
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So we have these principles
that by separating power,
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we protect against tyranny,
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we protect
against the accumulation
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and abuse of power.
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Let's talk about something,
often, it comes up here,
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but, you know, the Constitution,
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I think, protects religion,
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and the United States'
history, I studied history...
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It does protect
religion. Sorry, what did I say?
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You said you think it
does. It does protect religion.
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Well, no.
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But I mean, I just,
yeah, I agree with that.
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Right.
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But, you know, the
United States' history
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like the history of
all people's gets mixed
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with myths and facts
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and fiction,
sort of intertwined.
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And you can easily make
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a good track of
religious dissidents
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coming to these shores
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and being
sheltered, that's true.
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But of course,
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it had a very
extremely secular history
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at the same time.
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And so I don't
question the role of religion.
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In fact, I believe the founders
made an automatic assumption
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that the society that
operated under the Constitution
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would probably always
be Protestant Christian.
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I don't think they
could have ever envisaged
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that it was anything other.
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And a lot of the
functioning the government
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is predicated on
that norm which is gone.
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It's not even...
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It's a grossly secular mindset,
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and it shifted now not
just to Roman Catholicism,
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which is
inordinately represented
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in the
government, but, you know,
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when we have 30-40
Muslims, and so on.
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So it's a whole different game.
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Well, we're living on
borrowed cultural capital
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in that sense
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because our concept of rights
is a very Protestant concept.
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Yeah, you're getting
to what I'm building to.
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But we've lost the philosophical
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or the religious
foundation for our rights.
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In many ways, I
see that constitutional
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is almost code to
link with this cultural
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understanding that they brought
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as a Protestant and
Anglo Protestant community.
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But that said,
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on the separation
of church and state,
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it's very simple, isn't it?
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Just half of one Amendment.
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Congress shall make no
law establishing religion.
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Respecting the
establishment of religion.
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Establishment of religion.
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Or prohibiting the
free exercise thereof.
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What's that?
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I mean, I read
all sorts of articles
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about separation or
otherwise or whatever.
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But how could
you read those words
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anything other
than the government
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is out of the game?
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Well, this is...
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It's not meant to be...
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The basic principle.
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Legislating period on religious.
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It's just off limits. Right.
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Religion is not the
object of civil government,
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that's what
Madison said, you know?
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So what makes
America great truly
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is this foundation of how
we deal with power in order
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to protect civil
and religious freedom,
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that and then how
we use those principles
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in how we project
our influence globally.
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If our global
influence is simply
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for our own
economic self-interest,
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for our own power base,
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that's not what America
has been historically...
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That has been the
premise of every world empire
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that has risen or fallen
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and has succumbed
to the temptations
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of the devil.
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You know, the
devil offered Christ
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the whole world
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if he would bow
down and worship.
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And when we seek for
power, for our own sake,
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we are bowing
down before the devil.
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Yeah.
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And I...
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You didn't read McCain's speech,
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but in our
meeting, the other day,
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that you and I attended,
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I read a bit of my own editorial
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which is rather hubristic.
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But, you know, I
tried to make the case,
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the point of the
highest recent greatness,
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sounds bad, of the US.
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To me, that was the period
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when we were actively trying
to project a Christian norm
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as against a secular communism.
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And that was the era
where we had the Peace Corps
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and disinterested giving
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because the US population
have shown great generosity,
00:11:34.49\00:11:37.73
and I think it derived not
from who we are as Americans,
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I think it derived
from this Christian
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Protestant sensibility,
which is disappearing.
00:11:43.40\00:11:48.04
The US doesn't give
much to other countries now.
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It's not just this
president administration
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closing the gates.
00:11:52.71\00:11:54.04
It stopped once the
Soviet Union collapsed.
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We no longer...
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we're operating on a
consciously Christian
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basis of helping others
because we want to help.
00:12:00.25\00:12:03.99
We turn people
away at the borders
00:12:04.02\00:12:06.42
much more than we used
to because now it's not...
00:12:06.45\00:12:09.56
The actions are not,
00:12:09.59\00:12:10.93
the back drop is
not Christian charity,
00:12:10.96\00:12:13.29
its national self-interest.
00:12:13.33\00:12:15.26
And I think the disappearance
of a Christian Protestant value
00:12:15.30\00:12:19.33
is the biggest change.
00:12:19.37\00:12:21.30
Figures that might be
saying one thing or the other,
00:12:21.34\00:12:23.41
at the moment, you
know, I find objectionable.
00:12:23.44\00:12:25.11
But that's, they're sort
of moving into the situation.
00:12:25.14\00:12:28.48
You know, and I'll
invoke the Hitler thing again.
00:12:28.51\00:12:31.55
You know, Hitler was
one of the blots on history.
00:12:31.58\00:12:34.48
But I'm certain
00:12:34.52\00:12:35.85
that if Adolf
Hitler hadn't appeared
00:12:35.88\00:12:37.42
at that time, somebody else
with similar views would have.
00:12:37.45\00:12:40.42
Germany was ripe for it.
00:12:40.46\00:12:42.69
And at the moment, we
are losing our values,
00:12:42.72\00:12:45.26
and this sort of catch
cry or some equivalent of...
00:12:45.29\00:12:49.23
It would have come up anyway.
00:12:49.26\00:12:50.60
Well, I don't think we can talk
about what makes America great,
00:12:50.63\00:12:53.67
the lamb-like
horns, without also talking
00:12:53.70\00:12:56.04
about the dragon's influence
and the speaking as a dragon
00:12:56.07\00:12:59.77
in the context of the prophecy.
00:12:59.81\00:13:01.54
And who is the dragon?
00:13:01.58\00:13:02.91
Well, the dragon in
Scripture is the devil.
00:13:02.94\00:13:04.75
But, you know,
00:13:04.78\00:13:06.11
that if you look
back at American history,
00:13:06.15\00:13:08.75
I mean, from the get-go,
00:13:08.78\00:13:10.35
it seems to me
that the major theme
00:13:10.39\00:13:12.52
in dragon-like
conduct has been our treatment
00:13:12.55\00:13:16.29
of Native Americans,
of blacks, of immigrants.
00:13:16.32\00:13:20.20
You know, I'll be
speaking in a Hispanic Church,
00:13:20.23\00:13:23.00
and I'll say to them,
00:13:23.03\00:13:24.37
"You know, you guys
think you're special.
00:13:24.40\00:13:26.03
You think that America
00:13:26.07\00:13:27.40
is treating you
really badly, right?"
00:13:27.44\00:13:29.34
And of course we are.
00:13:29.37\00:13:31.01
And I'll say, "But
I got news for you.
00:13:31.04\00:13:33.34
We've treated every
generation of immigrants
00:13:33.38\00:13:36.18
just as badly as you guys."
00:13:36.21\00:13:38.81
And part of that of
course is debased human nature
00:13:38.85\00:13:41.48
and all of the imperial powers
00:13:41.52\00:13:43.39
as they
projected, Spain, England,
00:13:43.42\00:13:45.22
Portugal, and Germany,
they did the same things.
00:13:45.25\00:13:48.46
The Europeans, I think,
00:13:48.49\00:13:50.59
were culturally vicious.
00:13:50.63\00:13:56.70
So we don't have much
to be proud of on that.
00:13:56.73\00:13:59.67
But I think I
can make a good case
00:13:59.70\00:14:01.54
that the US in the...
00:14:01.57\00:14:03.51
or the expansion of the US,
00:14:03.54\00:14:05.11
and then under its
national sovereignty,
00:14:05.14\00:14:07.81
it was moderated a bit
00:14:07.84\00:14:09.18
because of this Protestant
Christian sensibility.
00:14:09.21\00:14:12.91
Of course.
00:14:12.95\00:14:15.25
I can see we're
right at the break point,
00:14:15.28\00:14:18.52
at a natural pause, but
please come back with us
00:14:18.55\00:14:21.32
as we discuss
greatness and its necessity
00:14:21.36\00:14:24.66
and how you and I
can be involved in it.
00:14:24.69\00:14:26.63