Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI180410B
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00:05 Welcome back to Liberty Insider.
00:08 We were so eager to get going that 00:10 we're almost jumping the gun because this is a hot topic. 00:12 It is. 00:13 And with my guest Alan Reinach, 00:16 we started by just legally talking about 00:19 a Supreme Court action 00:20 which most people probably didn't hear about 00:22 or if they did, it didn't mean much. 00:24 But there's a lot riding on 00:25 how the courts and our legal system 00:28 adjudicates between what has become the competing rights, 00:32 religious rights, and gay rights. 00:35 And there is saying, Lincoln, 00:37 that the court did not reach the core issue in the case. 00:42 The court paid lip service, both to, 00:45 you know, gay rights and their rights to be served 00:48 and not discriminated against when they go to restaurants 00:52 and go to businesses as they should. 00:55 They also paid lip service 00:57 to the rights of religious conscience, 00:59 but they never resolved the conflict between them. 01:03 And, you know, it remains for future cases to figure out. 01:08 And it will be future cases because... 01:10 Of course there will. 01:11 I think both parties are pushing stuff up through the... 01:14 creating cases, designed to be said to the Supreme Court. 01:18 You know, the culture war 01:20 has become a bit of a zero sum game. 01:22 Zero sum game means, 01:24 you know, both sides are playing for keeps, 01:27 know, you know, only, you know... 01:29 Take no prisoners. Take no prisoners. 01:30 Winners and losers. 01:32 But you know who the real loser in the culture war, 01:36 in my perception, 01:38 the real loser is the gospel itself 01:40 because when Christians fight so hard against gay rights, 01:46 what happens? 01:49 Secular people, well meaning people, not just activists, 01:52 but, you know, they think badly, 01:54 they see the church, and the Jesus of the church 01:58 as bigoted, as racist, as homophobic, 02:01 as anti-gay, as full of hate. 02:04 Now the Jesus that you and I know and love 02:06 is not a Jesus of hate, He said... 02:09 you know, He died to save the entire world, 02:14 not just a few. 02:15 He didn't just die for the straight people, 02:17 He died for everybody. 02:19 Now, we've, on this program, spoken about this issue, 02:22 not this decision per se that I can remember. 02:25 Sure. A lot, and that's been my view. 02:27 I think Christians are at great risk of being portrayed 02:31 as hard-edged bigots, 02:33 you know, don't even want to even deal with such people, 02:35 unclean, you know? 02:38 It seems to me from what I know, 02:40 and, of course, everyone has to act 02:41 according to their conscience, 02:43 I can't tell anyone at least of all another Christian 02:46 how they should react in this situation, 02:48 but what if they'd come into this guy's cake shop. 02:52 And as he came in, he welcome, 02:53 you know, glad you chose my business, 02:56 and then they ask him to do it. 02:57 And he says, "Well, you know, 02:59 thank you for choosing my store, 03:01 but I have to tell you 03:03 I'm a Bible believing Christian. 03:06 And my book, you know, warns against you 03:10 or something against your lifestyle, 03:11 and I certainly can't endorse that lifestyle, 03:15 but I want to tell you 03:16 if you still want to go with me, great. 03:20 But I may not be the best person 03:22 to do this for you. 03:24 I don't know if you're going to see this 03:25 as a sufficient parallel... 03:26 I mean, how is that denying his faith or refusing service? 03:29 So, but let me tell you about an experience I had years ago 03:33 when I was first practicing law in New York. 03:36 And I went to an education day event 03:39 at one of the churches there in the Bronx. 03:42 And these folks were, you know, so an education day, 03:45 you know, you're telling the high school kids 03:47 and the younger kids about, you know, 03:50 what it means to be a lawyer 03:51 and what you do as a lawyer, that sort of a thing. 03:53 And there was a doctor, and a dentist, 03:54 and, you know, a teacher, 03:56 you know, some other people there. 03:58 The grown-ups were giving me such a hard time. 04:01 How can you be a lawyer and a Christian? 04:03 How can you represent the guilty? 04:05 And I'm like, well, you know, people who have gone wrong, 04:09 you know, they need some grace, they need some... 04:11 They need to have a Christian witness, you know. 04:14 If you're not... 04:15 If there's no Christians in the system anywhere, 04:18 how are they ever going to find Jesus? 04:22 And, you know, it strikes me if Christians now maybe, 04:27 you know, should I... 04:28 If I'm not a criminal defense attorney, 04:30 but should Christians say, 04:31 "Well, we're not going to do criminal defense 04:33 because these are sinners, 04:34 so we're not going to help these sinners 04:36 who have committed these crimes." 04:38 Well, to me, that's a little bit like saying, 04:41 "Well, I'm a baker, but I'm not going to bake for..." 04:44 But you don't necessarily, when you get a client, 04:47 you don't claim to know more than the judge will know 04:50 after a whole trial and all the evidence 04:52 that he's guilty. 04:53 Well. 04:54 He might have a personal inference. 04:56 We've had to struggle with this, Lincoln, 04:58 because it turns out that, 05:00 you know, not all the cases we take and the clients 05:03 we take are as upstanding as we thought to begin with. 05:06 And sometimes we come away thinking that 05:09 the employer was right to fire them. 05:12 But I remember Antonin Scalia 05:16 telling a story about the horse thief 05:19 that was brought to trial before a friendly court. 05:23 And they said he's not guilty. But he... 05:26 And he doesn't have to give back the horses. 05:30 So I guess it's possible to be complicit, 05:34 but I don't think lawyers, as a philosophical matter, 05:39 buy into the guilt of someone that's accused of a crime. 05:43 You are wanting them to get a fair hearing, 05:47 and it may turn out that you help someone this guilty. 05:51 But that's not really your job, you ought to be an advocate. 05:53 And Christ is our advocate. 05:55 We're guilty to start with. So... 05:57 And He's redeeming us, He's redeeming us. 05:59 But coming back to Jack Phillips, I mean, you... 06:01 Look, you raise a good question as a theological matter 06:04 is that the best of the only position 06:06 for Christians to take 06:08 to refuse to serve the gay couple. 06:10 And that's a valid discussion to have, 06:13 and I have my questions as well. 06:14 I mean, I'm not a theologian, I'm a lawyer. 06:16 But, you know, from a legal standpoint, of course, 06:21 he has every legal right to have his religious convictions 06:25 and to have them respected. 06:27 And I do think that the Supreme Court's decision showed respect 06:31 for his beliefs, it remains to be seen. 06:35 You know, going back to the decision in Obergefell 06:39 where Kennedy wrote the majority opinion 06:43 approving of same sex marriage. 06:45 And of course Kennedy's gone. 06:46 But the, you know, the decision paid lip service 06:51 to the right to believe 06:53 what you want about human sexuality, 06:56 but it did nothing to express support 07:00 for the right to act according to your belief. 07:02 So do you think this is a continuation of 07:04 what under the Obama administration 07:06 we took them to task a bit, and the president himself, 07:09 he early on was inclined to talk about freedom of worship, 07:14 not freedom of religion. 07:17 And even the communist system allowed freedom of worship 07:20 to hold a view and within narrow confines 07:23 to sing hymns and so on, 07:25 but not to go out and put it into action, 07:27 that's really what's at stake, isn't it? 07:29 Well... 07:30 Or free exercise as the Constitution says. 07:33 You know, I think the culture warriors are 07:37 misreading the trend of history, frankly 07:41 because I think the trend of history is to secularize, 07:45 and instead of being so combative, 07:49 we need to be more gospel-focused, and ultimately, 07:53 that's going to be where the power is. 07:56 Christ says, "If I be lifted up from the world, 07:58 from the earth, I will draw all men." 08:01 And if the church is failing, 08:04 it's because we're not lifting up Christ 08:07 and showing Jesus properly. 08:10 And when we're fighting these culture war, you know, battles, 08:13 we're alienating people 08:15 rather than drawing them to Christ. 08:17 Right, you're right. 08:18 And so the thing is to represent Christ, 08:21 not protect ourselves, 08:23 and the story that even as you're talking comes to mind, 08:26 people wouldn't normally use it this way, 08:28 but the man on the Jericho road, 08:31 lying there in the blood and this gore, 08:33 and the priest pulls his skirts up, walk by. 08:36 You know, I think there's certain charity involved too. 08:40 Not endorsing someone else's life style, 08:43 but a Christian needs to reach out 08:45 and help in whatever way they can. 08:48 I don't think that means 08:49 that you put all of flourishes on the cake 08:52 because you can't be enthusiastic about it, 08:54 but you definitely will help them in the last condition, 08:59 and by charity, and then I would, spoken in season, 09:03 you know, people think witnessing is, 09:05 you know, push it there on this road. 09:07 But when you're on side with someone 09:09 and helping them in this wedding, 09:12 you know, they can call it what they want, 09:14 not the biblical wedding, 09:15 but you're helping them in this. 09:17 Maybe then you could insert biblical view of 09:20 why you had this reticence to start 09:21 with that you spoke about. 09:23 Well, you know, the real question to me is, 09:26 you know, the, 09:28 you know, Jack Phillips missed an opportunity 09:31 to show the grace of Christ to this couple 09:35 that somehow in showing them a Christian witness... 09:40 a lot of secular people, 09:42 a lot of gay people expect hostility from Christians. 09:45 And so they're reinforced 09:48 in their opposition to Christianity 09:50 when they get rejection. 09:52 And like it or not, I just... 09:54 From the material in their own community 09:56 there's a lot of self-hatred, 09:58 they're not self-confident as they make out, 10:00 they don't need further condemnation. 10:03 If anything, that will give them a false sense that, 10:05 you know, they justified in opposing you. 10:08 But to be charitable and humane toward someone 10:11 and then maybe drop the word that 10:13 this is out of harmony with God's Word, who knows. 10:15 Right, you know... 10:17 That might gain their conscience. 10:18 On a basic gospel orientation, 10:21 I think the mistake that the church has just made 10:24 is that we make people's sexuality 10:28 a barrier between themselves and Christ. 10:31 And that's not the way it should be. 10:34 We really should send the message that 10:36 there is no barrier. 10:38 Jesus died for you, you can encounter Christ, 10:41 you can have a relationship with Christ, 10:43 and Christ alone is the one 10:45 who is going to deal with sinners, 10:47 and clean us up, reform us, change us. 10:53 We worship Christ. 10:57 King Solomon was asked once to adjudicate 11:00 between two women claiming the same child. 11:04 And one never knows how he was going to be execute, 11:06 but his proposal was slice the child in two, 11:09 give half each, 11:10 obviously, they'd each have half a dead child. 11:13 I pity the Supreme Court of late 11:15 because in a recent case, 11:18 the cake maker case, for one of a formal title. 11:22 In essence, they were asked to divide, 11:25 liberties, rights in half 11:28 between the rights of Christians to witness 11:31 and to stand on their faith, 11:33 and the new found civil right of gays, and transgenders, 11:37 and their pressure group. 11:40 I'm not sure that this right can be equally divided. 11:44 And it's unfortunate that 11:45 it becomes a conflict between rights. 11:48 But what is certain is that Christians in their witness 11:51 cannot afford to offend people. 11:55 We need to be as inclusive in the right way 11:57 as Christ was condemning the sin, 12:00 but even patting with the public and if you like, 12:04 we need to avoid the crying leper, 12:07 and say as Christ did, 12:09 a soul to be saved in every situation. 12:12 The legal battle will continue, 12:14 but more important is the moral one 12:16 in the witness of Christians. 12:18 For Liberty Insider, This is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2018-11-19