Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI180408B
|
00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break 00:09 with Editor Carmela of Message Magazine, 00:13 I need to give an advertisement for your magazine, 00:17 one of the best, 00:18 Liberty is at least as good as Message. 00:22 No, I've always appreciated Message Magazine, 00:24 you've had some consistently, not just under your editorship, 00:27 but you continued 00:29 very thought provoking articles, 00:31 I believe. 00:32 The respect goes both ways. 00:34 I appreciate that. Well, thank you. 00:36 But we were talking about the recent decision 00:40 and we know little about the decision itself, 00:42 but a lot about the background on the so called cake case, 00:47 which is really just one skirmish 00:50 on a growing conflict that seems to many people 00:53 between gay rights and religious rights. 00:57 Do you think it has to be that way? 01:00 Should there be... 01:01 Is of necessity there a conflict 01:03 between this new civil right for this group 01:06 and religious freedom rights? 01:08 I know many people think 01:10 that there has to be a conflict. 01:13 Many people think that there will be a problem 01:16 when you recognize a legal union between gays. 01:21 And many people, on the other side, 01:23 want to also make sure that their union 01:26 is sanctioned by God in the House of Worship, 01:29 in a Christian church. 01:31 I don't have a large opinion on it. 01:34 I do believe... 01:35 And I've been reading lately, and indeed, our church, 01:40 our religious faith 01:41 has gone through great lengths 01:44 to not only investigate but to interview 01:48 and figure out what it is, how can we be more sensitive, 01:53 how can we be more welcoming 01:55 in a way that does not compromise, 01:58 you know tenets of our faith in general. 02:01 At the same time though, I don't see... 02:04 It's not easy necessarily to reconcile the two. 02:08 I am of the personal mindset 02:10 though if there is a civil right to be had 02:13 and if a person has a right to a certain thing, 02:15 they should be able to have that regardless. 02:18 But I think there's a reasonable discussion 02:21 as to whether this society 02:25 should have granted that right. 02:27 I think it was perhaps a mistake, 02:30 but it's settled civil law now. 02:34 And so 02:36 for people of Christian or any faith to challenge law 02:40 because they don't like it 02:42 as opposed to challenging the law 02:44 that asks them to forsake their higher loyalty 02:49 is a bit dangerous 02:51 because that's people of faith meddling in civil governance. 02:55 Even though they see a strong moral component, 02:59 you know... 03:01 Well, I'm going to give an example 03:02 and it was contradiction even as I thought about it... 03:04 Right. 03:06 But, you know, when you drove here, 03:07 you drove past Larry Flynt's Hustler Club 03:11 and I know Christians... 03:12 I didn't notice it, just to say. 03:13 Okay. 03:15 I've driven too many times not to notice it 03:16 because he was in the news when I first started. 03:18 Right. 03:19 It's true, some Christians have, 03:23 you know, gotten in front of that sort of groups 03:25 and abortion clinics 03:27 and made their objections known, 03:30 and that's fine. 03:31 But unless you think this is a Christian Republic 03:34 in a governmental sense, which many people do, 03:38 I don't see how a Christian can say, 03:40 "I don't like that law. 03:41 This is not the theocracy that I want, 03:44 so therefore, you know, you can't have it." 03:46 Normally, a Christian should only object to laws per se 03:49 that restrict their worship of God. 03:52 Right. 03:53 So it seems to me this is people 03:54 launching forth into social experiments basically, 03:58 and goodness knows the state is in a big one 04:00 with adopting the gay marriage I think, 04:02 I read it in an editorial once and I said, 04:04 "This is a massive experiment." 04:06 They have no idea how it'll affect 04:07 the cost of social, medical for the society, 04:12 you know, the diseases, inheritance, 04:15 you just go on and on. 04:17 I saw a television program once 04:19 that played off on the idea of that old poem, you know. 04:23 For want of a nail the shoes was lost 04:26 For want of a shoe the horse was lost 04:28 For want of a horse a battle was lost 04:31 For want of a battle a kingdom was lost 04:33 You know, the king's horse, cannot blame him. 04:35 And little things can have huge ramifications. 04:39 Right. 04:40 And so the gay marriage allowance 04:45 and the state may have its own punishment if you like, 04:48 it's disruptive. 04:50 But Christians need to deal 04:51 with the sinfully disrupted society, 04:53 we need to let our light shine, not slash away, 04:58 you know, thinking that, 05:01 you know, we're going to set it all straight 05:02 and that we're Jehu and our chariot 05:04 can chart through this and that area. 05:08 And the thing is I just don't... 05:10 There's not a clear or an easy rule for me. 05:14 When I hear you say that... 05:16 You know, yes, because maybe 05:18 we have similar backgrounds religiously, 05:21 you know, I get that, I get where you are, 05:23 at the same time, there is a human right 05:27 and I do see the parallel in this instance 05:30 when you're talking about the civil rights movement. 05:33 As a rule, I can't say, 05:35 "Don't get involved in certain things, 05:38 don't do certain things 05:40 because of your personal preference 05:42 or your moral belief." 05:44 I don't know there's a rule that I can't believe them. 05:46 I'll throw you a real curve... 05:47 Okay. 05:49 And already you've figured I can do it. 05:50 How does this structurally differ 05:53 from what most of us are uncomfortable with, 05:55 the call from some Islamic majority communities 05:59 in America 06:01 that they would luxury a little? 06:04 We find that socially troublesome, 06:07 not just from a religious point of view 06:09 but undergirding the expectation 06:11 on the cake and all the rest, 06:14 is that as a Christian community, 06:15 we're just going to prohibit anything 06:17 that defends our practice of religion. 06:21 That's what it boils down to, doesn't it? 06:23 Sometimes, sometimes not. 06:25 I know I sound like a lawyer really to you, but... 06:27 No, no. 06:28 You need to sound like a lawyer. 06:29 Sometimes I think that, 06:31 you know, in the case that we were talking 06:32 should we allow... 06:34 I mean, on one hand, 06:35 you could make a good argument 06:36 that the government that is locally based, 06:41 that is the seed of government, that is, 06:43 you know, it rests with those elected, 06:45 it rests with them. 06:47 And so on one hand you can say 06:50 to have another body that officiates, 06:52 makes their own laws and... 06:54 You know, and to rise to that 06:56 and take on that responsibility for themselves, 07:00 that is problematic in any government 07:03 or any society on one hand but... 07:04 Well, you're superimposing one legal system on another. 07:06 Yes, yes. 07:08 But at the same time though, 07:09 you think about this anterior case, 07:12 if I could say that the right way, 07:13 if I hadn't pronounce it correctly, 07:15 you know, we're not going to target 07:19 or attack any one group 07:21 because of who they are 07:23 and we're not going to make laws 07:24 that are directed toward them. 07:26 So, you know, there is always... 07:28 Well, there's a lot of subtleties on this, 07:29 you're right. 07:30 Yes, there's always a nuance that, you know, 07:32 it is hard and I don't think we should at any point 07:37 approach people 07:38 or situations with that broad brush rule, 07:42 and I believe that's the way Jesus would want us to do it, 07:44 you know, it's just to be more individual. 07:47 I'm talking to you, what are your needs, 07:49 what are the things that you feel 07:51 that you need to be a part of this society, 07:54 where do I fit in, how do you relate to me, 07:57 how do I relate to you, 07:58 and how can I make the institutions around, 08:01 being inclusive of you 08:02 and your needs and your family's needs. 08:04 Yeah. 08:06 And you've pretty much described 08:08 the goal of a Christian presence 08:10 in a society to be... 08:14 Not just within a closed area 08:16 but to reach out and to make a difference. 08:19 We like to think 08:21 that Christianity does that automatically, 08:23 but probably not unless you make the effort to... 08:28 I know, the pioneer of our church Ellen White, 08:32 when she lived in Australia, 08:33 said that she took flowers and cakes and stuff 08:36 to her neighbors, reached out. 08:37 Right. 08:39 And... 08:40 And I love it when you say that. 08:42 I don't know if we should take cakes 08:44 to this group, but... 08:46 I believe there needs to be a lot more though. 08:48 Of course. 08:50 We're talking about... 08:51 And if I could just say that recently, 08:53 they have come out with a whole study, 08:55 the whole social science 08:59 and they've discovered the loneliness epidemic. 09:01 Have you read about this? 09:03 The loneliness epidemic, 09:04 where people do not have any interaction, 09:07 they do not have close friends that they can talk to, 09:09 much less any heartfelt or deep discussion of anything 09:14 that matters to people, 09:16 and that hurts us as a whole and... 09:18 Well, I think that's one of the key elements 09:21 of the root of a collapse of a coherent society. 09:24 It's not just an emotional deficit 09:26 for the individuals, 09:28 you can't have a society sustain long 09:30 when people are not bound to other people strongly. 09:33 Right. 09:34 I love that, the way you said that. 09:36 Have you heard the... 09:37 I heard a study, an experiment not long ago, 09:40 I thought it was very interesting, 09:41 where they set up a man in a room to do and they say, 09:44 "We want you to go on the computer, 09:46 we want you to play catch with two other people." 09:48 Did you see that? No. 09:49 That was very... 09:50 But I know the dynamic you're talking about. 09:52 Right, right. 09:53 Well, you know, he's supposed to toss the ball 09:55 after a while he's playing with them 09:56 and the other people stop tossing the ball to him 09:58 and they're playing together, and they have the man's head, 10:02 his brain is set up with, 10:05 you know, monitors and everything. 10:06 They realized that the hurt that he felt 10:09 when the imaginary people because... 10:11 I thought it was something else you were saying 10:12 but I haven't seen that. 10:13 Yeah, it was two computers that he was playing with, 10:15 it wasn't another people, 10:17 and so they programmed the computer 10:18 to stop throwing the ball to him. 10:20 The rejection and the pain that he felt... 10:23 Well, we've all been there in grade school, 10:25 you're not picked on the team court little later 10:27 when you're home. 10:29 It registered in his brain the same place 10:30 as your pain center. 10:32 Yeah. 10:33 And so if you want to get rid of that 10:35 and feel better, you take a Tylenol. 10:37 And there's no question that the true religion 10:39 and the religion that Jesus brought 10:40 was to relieve those pain centers, wasn't it? 10:42 Absolutely. 10:44 I believe there's something that every one of us could do 10:46 and I would like to be able to make sure 10:49 that the people around me 10:50 recognize what it means to be able to reach out to people, 10:56 the loneliness, the massacres, 10:58 the violence can be stopped and it can all stop with me 11:01 if I intervene. 11:07 Food and baking 11:09 is an important part of life, 11:11 and when you think spiritual things 11:13 or at least religious history, it pops up periodically. 11:17 I think of Gideon meeting the angel 11:21 and the cakes were baked on a hot stone, 11:24 I think of hospitality being extended 11:28 which involve baking and other things. 11:30 Abraham and the visitors that came 11:33 turned out to be angels, 11:35 and I wonder sometimes, Christian bakers, 11:39 cake makers and others, how do they know 11:43 whether they are entertaining angels 11:45 or the regular sinners. 11:48 And while the Supreme Court 11:50 have taken a good protective decision, 11:53 we need to look more and more at how we are charitably 11:57 extending the hospitality to others, 12:00 unbelievers even, that cakes and food 12:04 and the common human occurrences 12:05 remind us of. 12:08 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2018-11-05