Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break
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with Editor Carmela
of Message Magazine,
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I need to give an
advertisement for your magazine,
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one of the best,
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Liberty is at
least as good as Message.
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No, I've always
appreciated Message Magazine,
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you've had some consistently,
not just under your editorship,
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but you continued
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very thought provoking articles,
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I believe.
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The respect goes both ways.
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I appreciate
that. Well, thank you.
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But we were talking
about the recent decision
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and we know little
about the decision itself,
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but a lot about the background
on the so called cake case,
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which is really
just one skirmish
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on a growing conflict
that seems to many people
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between gay rights
and religious rights.
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Do you think it
has to be that way?
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Should there be...
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Is of necessity there a conflict
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between this new
civil right for this group
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and religious freedom rights?
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I know many people think
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that there has to be a conflict.
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Many people think that
there will be a problem
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when you recognize a
legal union between gays.
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And many people,
on the other side,
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want to also make
sure that their union
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is sanctioned by God
in the House of Worship,
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in a Christian church.
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I don't have a
large opinion on it.
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I do believe...
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And I've been reading
lately, and indeed, our church,
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our religious faith
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has gone through great lengths
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to not only
investigate but to interview
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and figure out what it is,
how can we be more sensitive,
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how can we be more welcoming
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in a way that
does not compromise,
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you know tenets of
our faith in general.
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At the same time
though, I don't see...
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It's not easy necessarily
to reconcile the two.
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I am of the personal mindset
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though if there is a
civil right to be had
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and if a person has a
right to a certain thing,
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they should be able
to have that regardless.
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But I think there's
a reasonable discussion
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as to whether this society
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should have granted that right.
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I think it was
perhaps a mistake,
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but it's settled civil law now.
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And so
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for people of Christian
or any faith to challenge law
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because they don't like it
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as opposed to
challenging the law
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that asks them to
forsake their higher loyalty
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is a bit dangerous
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because that's people of faith
meddling in civil governance.
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Even though they see a
strong moral component,
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you know...
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Well, I'm going
to give an example
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and it was contradiction
even as I thought about it...
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Right.
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But, you know,
when you drove here,
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you drove past
Larry Flynt's Hustler Club
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and I know Christians...
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I didn't notice it, just to say.
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Okay.
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I've driven too many
times not to notice it
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because he was in the
news when I first started.
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Right.
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It's true, some Christians have,
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you know, gotten in
front of that sort of groups
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and abortion clinics
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and made their objections known,
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and that's fine.
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But unless you think
this is a Christian Republic
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in a governmental
sense, which many people do,
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I don't see how a
Christian can say,
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"I don't like that law.
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This is not the
theocracy that I want,
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so therefore, you
know, you can't have it."
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Normally, a Christian should
only object to laws per se
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that restrict
their worship of God.
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Right.
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So it seems to me this is people
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launching forth into
social experiments basically,
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and goodness knows
the state is in a big one
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with adopting the
gay marriage I think,
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I read it in an
editorial once and I said,
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"This is a massive experiment."
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They have no
idea how it'll affect
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the cost of social,
medical for the society,
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you know, the
diseases, inheritance,
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you just go on and on.
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I saw a television program once
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that played off on the
idea of that old poem, you know.
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For want of a
nail the shoes was lost
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For want of a
shoe the horse was lost
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For want of a
horse a battle was lost
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For want of a
battle a kingdom was lost
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You know, the king's
horse, cannot blame him.
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And little things can
have huge ramifications.
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Right.
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And so the gay
marriage allowance
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and the state may have its
own punishment if you like,
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it's disruptive.
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But Christians need to deal
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with the sinfully
disrupted society,
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we need to let our
light shine, not slash away,
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you know, thinking that,
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you know, we're going
to set it all straight
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and that we're
Jehu and our chariot
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can chart through
this and that area.
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And the thing is I just don't...
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There's not a clear
or an easy rule for me.
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When I hear you say that...
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You know, yes, because maybe
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we have similar
backgrounds religiously,
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you know, I get
that, I get where you are,
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at the same time,
there is a human right
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and I do see the
parallel in this instance
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when you're talking about
the civil rights movement.
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As a rule, I can't say,
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"Don't get
involved in certain things,
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don't do certain things
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because of your
personal preference
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or your moral belief."
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I don't know there's a
rule that I can't believe them.
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I'll throw you a real curve...
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Okay.
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And already you've
figured I can do it.
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How does this
structurally differ
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from what most of us
are uncomfortable with,
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the call from some
Islamic majority communities
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in America
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that they would luxury a little?
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We find that
socially troublesome,
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not just from a
religious point of view
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but undergirding the expectation
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on the cake and all the rest,
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is that as a
Christian community,
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we're just going
to prohibit anything
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that defends our
practice of religion.
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That's what it
boils down to, doesn't it?
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Sometimes, sometimes not.
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I know I sound like a
lawyer really to you, but...
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No, no.
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You need to sound like a lawyer.
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Sometimes I think that,
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you know, in the
case that we were talking
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should we allow...
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I mean, on one hand,
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you could make a good argument
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that the government
that is locally based,
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that is the seed of
government, that is,
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you know, it rests
with those elected,
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it rests with them.
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And so on one hand you can say
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to have another
body that officiates,
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makes their own laws and...
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You know, and to rise to that
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and take on that
responsibility for themselves,
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that is
problematic in any government
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or any society
on one hand but...
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Well, you're superimposing
one legal system on another.
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Yes, yes.
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But at the same time though,
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you think about
this anterior case,
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if I could say
that the right way,
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if I hadn't
pronounce it correctly,
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you know, we're
not going to target
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or attack any one group
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because of who they are
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and we're not going to make laws
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that are directed toward them.
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So, you know, there is always...
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Well, there's a lot
of subtleties on this,
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you're right.
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Yes, there's always a
nuance that, you know,
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it is hard and I don't
think we should at any point
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approach people
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or situations with
that broad brush rule,
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and I believe that's the way
Jesus would want us to do it,
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you know, it's just
to be more individual.
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I'm talking to you,
what are your needs,
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what are the
things that you feel
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that you need to be
a part of this society,
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where do I fit in,
how do you relate to me,
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how do I relate to you,
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and how can I make
the institutions around,
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being inclusive of you
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and your needs and
your family's needs.
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Yeah.
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And you've pretty much described
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the goal of a Christian presence
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in a society to be...
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Not just within a closed area
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but to reach out and
to make a difference.
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We like to think
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that Christianity
does that automatically,
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but probably not unless
you make the effort to...
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I know, the pioneer of
our church Ellen White,
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when she lived in Australia,
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said that she took
flowers and cakes and stuff
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to her neighbors, reached out.
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Right.
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And...
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And I love it when you say that.
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I don't know if
we should take cakes
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to this group, but...
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I believe there needs
to be a lot more though.
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Of course.
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We're talking about...
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And if I could
just say that recently,
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they have come out
with a whole study,
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the whole social science
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and they've discovered
the loneliness epidemic.
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Have you read about this?
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The loneliness epidemic,
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where people do not
have any interaction,
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they do not have close
friends that they can talk to,
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much less any heartfelt or
deep discussion of anything
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that matters to people,
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and that hurts
us as a whole and...
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Well, I think that's
one of the key elements
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of the root of a
collapse of a coherent society.
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It's not just an
emotional deficit
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for the individuals,
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you can't have a
society sustain long
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when people are not
bound to other people strongly.
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Right.
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I love that, the
way you said that.
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Have you heard the...
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I heard a study, an
experiment not long ago,
00:09:37.57\00:09:40.54
I thought it was
very interesting,
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where they set up a man
in a room to do and they say,
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"We want you to
go on the computer,
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we want you to play
catch with two other people."
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Did you see that? No.
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That was very...
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But I know the
dynamic you're talking about.
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Right, right.
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Well, you know, he's
supposed to toss the ball
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after a while
he's playing with them
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and the other people
stop tossing the ball to him
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and they're playing together,
and they have the man's head,
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his brain is set up with,
00:10:02.46\00:10:05.10
you know,
monitors and everything.
00:10:05.13\00:10:06.63
They realized that
the hurt that he felt
00:10:06.67\00:10:09.44
when the
imaginary people because...
00:10:09.47\00:10:11.11
I thought it was
something else you were saying
00:10:11.14\00:10:12.54
but I haven't seen that.
00:10:12.57\00:10:13.91
Yeah, it was two computers
that he was playing with,
00:10:13.94\00:10:15.81
it wasn't another people,
00:10:15.84\00:10:17.18
and so they
programmed the computer
00:10:17.21\00:10:18.55
to stop
throwing the ball to him.
00:10:18.58\00:10:20.38
The rejection and
the pain that he felt...
00:10:20.42\00:10:23.35
Well, we've all been
there in grade school,
00:10:23.39\00:10:25.52
you're not picked on
the team court little later
00:10:25.55\00:10:27.82
when you're home.
00:10:27.86\00:10:29.19
It registered in
his brain the same place
00:10:29.22\00:10:30.86
as your pain center.
00:10:30.89\00:10:32.23
Yeah.
00:10:32.26\00:10:33.60
And so if you
want to get rid of that
00:10:33.63\00:10:35.40
and feel better,
you take a Tylenol.
00:10:35.43\00:10:37.13
And there's no
question that the true religion
00:10:37.17\00:10:39.10
and the religion
that Jesus brought
00:10:39.13\00:10:40.94
was to relieve those
pain centers, wasn't it?
00:10:40.97\00:10:42.77
Absolutely.
00:10:42.80\00:10:44.14
I believe there's something
that every one of us could do
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and I would like to
be able to make sure
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that the people around me
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recognize what it means to
be able to reach out to people,
00:10:50.88\00:10:56.52
the loneliness, the massacres,
00:10:56.55\00:10:58.75
the violence can be stopped
and it can all stop with me
00:10:58.79\00:11:01.76
if I intervene.
00:11:01.79\00:11:03.12
Food and baking
00:11:07.10\00:11:09.43
is an important part of life,
00:11:09.46\00:11:11.53
and when you
think spiritual things
00:11:11.57\00:11:13.47
or at least religious history,
it pops up periodically.
00:11:13.50\00:11:17.74
I think of
Gideon meeting the angel
00:11:17.77\00:11:21.11
and the cakes were
baked on a hot stone,
00:11:21.14\00:11:24.58
I think of
hospitality being extended
00:11:24.61\00:11:27.98
which involve
baking and other things.
00:11:28.02\00:11:30.22
Abraham and the
visitors that came
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turned out to be angels,
00:11:33.22\00:11:35.49
and I wonder
sometimes, Christian bakers,
00:11:35.52\00:11:39.39
cake makers and
others, how do they know
00:11:39.43\00:11:43.13
whether they are
entertaining angels
00:11:43.16\00:11:45.70
or the regular sinners.
00:11:45.73\00:11:48.10
And while the Supreme Court
00:11:48.14\00:11:50.14
have taken a good
protective decision,
00:11:50.17\00:11:53.17
we need to look more and
more at how we are charitably
00:11:53.21\00:11:57.18
extending the
hospitality to others,
00:11:57.21\00:12:00.85
unbelievers even,
that cakes and food
00:12:00.88\00:12:04.29
and the common human occurrences
00:12:04.32\00:12:05.82
remind us of.
00:12:05.85\00:12:08.16
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:08.19\00:12:11.76