Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:00:25.72\00:00:28.02
This is your program
with religious liberty views
00:00:28.06\00:00:31.36
and opinions from the
US and around the world.
00:00:31.39\00:00:35.13
And my guest on this program...
00:00:35.16\00:00:37.27
By the way, I'm Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine
00:00:37.30\00:00:39.83
and my guest is
Carmela Monk Crawford,
00:00:39.87\00:00:44.37
I always hesitate with your name
00:00:44.41\00:00:45.84
because I knew you
when it was just a one,
00:00:45.87\00:00:48.54
not hyphenated,
editor of Message Magazine.
00:00:48.58\00:00:52.38
And when this is
shown, I don't know,
00:00:52.41\00:00:55.72
but as we were recording this,
00:00:55.75\00:00:57.45
the Supreme
Court just brought in
00:00:57.49\00:00:59.45
or at least the news came in
of the Supreme Court decision
00:00:59.49\00:01:02.52
which, probably
like many of them,
00:01:02.56\00:01:03.89
is not a real decision,
00:01:03.93\00:01:05.79
but the end of the
process on something
00:01:05.83\00:01:07.96
that we've
spoken about for years
00:01:08.00\00:01:09.90
on this program.
00:01:09.93\00:01:11.27
That's right.
00:01:11.30\00:01:12.63
The shorthand
thing is the cake case,
00:01:12.67\00:01:18.07
the gays and the cake maker.
00:01:18.11\00:01:19.74
That's right. What
are your thoughts on this?
00:01:19.77\00:01:21.91
And I know you have an article
00:01:21.94\00:01:23.28
coming up in
your magazine on this.
00:01:23.31\00:01:24.65
Yeah, no, we
recently had an article
00:01:24.68\00:01:26.55
regarding the cake case,
00:01:26.58\00:01:28.78
the "Let them
have cake" case for us.
00:01:28.82\00:01:31.95
And it was a great
opportunity to talk about a way
00:01:31.99\00:01:35.69
the different
interests behind a scenario
00:01:35.72\00:01:40.26
that may implicate
your personal beliefs
00:01:40.30\00:01:42.90
as against somebody else's,
00:01:42.93\00:01:45.53
and it's one of those
things that you have to take
00:01:45.57\00:01:48.44
and analyze not only
to know what the law says,
00:01:48.47\00:01:51.81
but to know where you stand.
00:01:51.84\00:01:53.17
So what does the law say
00:01:53.21\00:01:55.31
when someone asked
you to do something
00:01:55.34\00:01:58.85
or perform a service for
them and that goes against
00:01:58.88\00:02:01.42
your own personal
religious beliefs?
00:02:01.45\00:02:03.79
And that was the question
that our author explored
00:02:03.82\00:02:07.52
and, you know, he was
coming down on the side,
00:02:07.56\00:02:11.19
you know, wondering what
would the Supreme Court say.
00:02:11.23\00:02:13.70
I haven't heard the opinion yet,
00:02:13.73\00:02:15.16
I haven't read it yet.
00:02:15.20\00:02:16.53
Yeah, we just know
something came down.
00:02:16.56\00:02:17.90
We know that
there was a decision
00:02:17.93\00:02:19.27
that was made today,
but, you know, the balancing
00:02:19.30\00:02:22.17
the interest
between that personal...
00:02:22.20\00:02:24.81
That baker there in Colorado
and the gay couple that came
00:02:24.84\00:02:31.48
and asked for a wedding
cake and the baker says,
00:02:31.51\00:02:35.58
"No, I can't do this.
00:02:35.62\00:02:36.95
This is against my
personal religious beliefs
00:02:36.99\00:02:39.92
in Colorado."
00:02:39.95\00:02:41.72
I believe it's the Civil
Rights Commission if I'm...
00:02:41.76\00:02:43.76
Yeah.
00:02:43.79\00:02:45.13
Something like that I
believe, and they said, "No, no.
00:02:45.16\00:02:49.46
You don't have to do that."
00:02:49.50\00:02:50.83
But the question is
00:02:50.87\00:02:52.20
on what grounds could he
refuse to make that cake?
00:02:52.23\00:02:56.54
And this is not the...
00:02:56.57\00:02:57.91
It's worth
reminding our viewers,
00:02:57.94\00:02:59.27
this is not the
first time around
00:02:59.31\00:03:00.74
on this type of
conscience refusal...
00:03:00.78\00:03:02.74
Yeah.
00:03:02.78\00:03:04.11
Remember there was an
issue of contraceptive medicines
00:03:04.15\00:03:07.65
and products from a pharmacist.
00:03:07.68\00:03:10.62
Would he fulfill the
prescription on something
00:03:10.65\00:03:12.85
that he disagrees with?
00:03:12.89\00:03:14.22
And just a few years ago,
00:03:14.26\00:03:15.59
'cause you wrote
this article for us
00:03:15.62\00:03:17.26
regarding the
court clerk in Kentucky
00:03:17.29\00:03:22.36
who didn't want to
sign the marriage license.
00:03:22.40\00:03:23.73
And they don't know
00:03:23.77\00:03:25.10
that all of these
are related equal...
00:03:25.13\00:03:26.47
Correct.
00:03:26.50\00:03:27.84
Because, you know,
00:03:27.87\00:03:29.20
she was not in a
regular employment,
00:03:29.24\00:03:30.57
this was a position that she,
00:03:30.61\00:03:34.71
you know, she was voted in...
00:03:34.74\00:03:36.08
Mm-hmm.
00:03:36.11\00:03:37.45
And there were other options,
she didn't have to do it
00:03:37.48\00:03:39.81
but she would not
even allow her underlings
00:03:39.85\00:03:41.98
to perform this.
00:03:42.02\00:03:43.89
Correct.
00:03:43.92\00:03:45.25
And it's worth remembering
too, most people forget,
00:03:45.29\00:03:47.12
it's not a matter of
what your church thinks
00:03:47.16\00:03:50.43
on religious accommodation,
00:03:50.46\00:03:52.33
it's are you
conscience bend on this,
00:03:52.36\00:03:54.63
if you hold a
conscience position
00:03:54.66\00:03:56.03
even if you're a
minority of one, in theory,
00:03:56.06\00:03:58.77
you ought to be accommodated.
00:03:58.80\00:04:00.47
But this runs up against
really just public interchange.
00:04:00.50\00:04:04.71
Can you run a public
service, a store, and so on
00:04:04.74\00:04:08.31
and for reasons that
outsiders might find random
00:04:08.34\00:04:12.78
or inconsistent or prejudicial
even, you're just going to say,
00:04:12.81\00:04:16.72
"I'm not going to serve you.
00:04:16.75\00:04:18.09
Go elsewhere." Right.
00:04:18.12\00:04:19.45
Which could be
huge, not with cakes,
00:04:19.49\00:04:21.59
I think you could
live without cakes,
00:04:21.62\00:04:23.16
even a wedding cake maybe...
00:04:23.19\00:04:24.53
Yes.
00:04:24.56\00:04:25.89
But in some cases,
00:04:25.93\00:04:27.26
you might deprive
that person of that service
00:04:27.30\00:04:30.27
or whatever you're providing.
00:04:30.30\00:04:32.70
Right.
00:04:32.73\00:04:34.07
But I have an opinion on this
00:04:34.10\00:04:35.44
because I don't think the Bible,
00:04:35.47\00:04:38.31
the New Testament particular,
00:04:38.34\00:04:41.14
gives license to people to
just because they don't like
00:04:41.18\00:04:44.01
the color of
someone's leprosy...
00:04:44.05\00:04:46.35
Mm-hmm.
00:04:46.38\00:04:47.72
That you say,
"No, I won't serve you,
00:04:47.75\00:04:50.15
you know, I'm clean.
00:04:50.19\00:04:51.52
Go away." Right.
00:04:51.55\00:04:54.22
What I've said and I
think I told you privately,
00:04:54.26\00:04:57.73
from my view of how this works,
00:04:57.76\00:05:00.06
if a gay couple
came to a Christian
00:05:00.10\00:05:02.93
who had huge moral reservations
00:05:02.96\00:05:05.23
about what they have
chosen for their life,
00:05:05.27\00:05:08.07
you know, and
God doesn't compel,
00:05:08.10\00:05:10.34
so, you know, they
could make bad choices
00:05:10.37\00:05:11.91
but if they came to me
00:05:11.94\00:05:13.31
and I was running a
cake shop, I would say,
00:05:13.34\00:05:16.31
"Well, thank you
for coming to my store."
00:05:16.34\00:05:18.41
And they would
identify themselves
00:05:18.45\00:05:19.81
and you'd say, you
know, "You may not know,
00:05:19.85\00:05:21.88
but I am a deeply
committed Christian
00:05:21.92\00:05:24.42
and my Bible has a lot
to say about the lifestyle
00:05:24.45\00:05:28.29
you've chosen
00:05:28.32\00:05:29.66
and I certainly
don't support that,
00:05:29.69\00:05:32.66
but you've come and
asked me to make a cake,
00:05:32.69\00:05:34.63
I will do that for
you, but I have to tell you.
00:05:34.66\00:05:38.80
I might not be your best choice,
00:05:38.83\00:05:40.30
I really couldn't
do the full justice
00:05:40.34\00:05:43.20
that you might be
expecting on this service."
00:05:43.24\00:05:45.07
Right.
00:05:45.11\00:05:46.44
And would you want to patronize
my shop given that is my belief
00:05:46.47\00:05:50.18
or that is my
view of your choice?
00:05:50.21\00:05:52.81
Maybe I didn't say it correctly,
00:05:52.85\00:05:54.18
but I think that
could be said in a way
00:05:54.22\00:05:55.68
that's not personally offensive
00:05:55.72\00:05:57.35
but clarifies the
situation and in the real world,
00:05:57.39\00:06:00.92
nine times out of
ten, first of all,
00:06:00.96\00:06:02.39
they wouldn't knowingly
come on these sort of things,
00:06:02.42\00:06:05.99
photographers and cakes,
you go with someone sabbatical,
00:06:06.03\00:06:10.07
that's the whole point of it.
00:06:10.10\00:06:11.43
This is not just a product,
it's a service of someone
00:06:11.47\00:06:14.57
that's going to really
run with your plan, you know.
00:06:14.60\00:06:17.31
Yes.
00:06:17.34\00:06:18.67
So first of all,
they're not so likely to come
00:06:18.71\00:06:20.58
to a known Christian cake maker,
00:06:20.61\00:06:23.18
then if he makes it
plain that he has principles,
00:06:23.21\00:06:26.05
that he's not
really on a wavelength,
00:06:26.08\00:06:27.58
they'd likely go elsewhere,
00:06:27.62\00:06:28.95
there's no legal
liability in that.
00:06:28.98\00:06:31.12
But particularly in light
of what the US went through
00:06:31.15\00:06:34.86
in the civil rights era
00:06:34.89\00:06:37.09
to exclude someone
just because you have
00:06:37.13\00:06:41.63
what amounts to a prejudice,
00:06:41.66\00:06:43.67
it might be
doctrinally informed,
00:06:43.70\00:06:45.20
it leads in a
dangerous direction in my view.
00:06:45.23\00:06:47.67
Yes.
00:06:47.70\00:06:49.04
And I believe just like
in the civil rights movement,
00:06:49.07\00:06:52.37
I don't know if they knew,
00:06:52.41\00:06:53.74
but there are
cases that you would take
00:06:53.78\00:06:55.94
and you would
advance because, you know,
00:06:55.98\00:06:58.58
this is a case that
we want to make a point
00:06:58.61\00:07:01.58
or a rule of law or
a point of law in this,
00:07:01.62\00:07:03.89
that could be what
has happened here...
00:07:03.92\00:07:05.52
Oh, I'm sure.
00:07:05.55\00:07:06.89
And I believe
that's what will happen,
00:07:06.92\00:07:08.62
the coming out,
00:07:08.66\00:07:09.99
as we read the text
of the case, like I said,
00:07:10.03\00:07:12.53
I didn't read it,
but I do agree with you
00:07:12.56\00:07:15.33
that you have your
own personal opinions
00:07:15.36\00:07:20.14
and your own personal beliefs.
00:07:20.17\00:07:21.74
The question is,
00:07:21.77\00:07:23.10
how do you relate to
the rest of the world?
00:07:23.14\00:07:24.87
And this is going to be a rub
00:07:24.91\00:07:26.24
that we're going to
see over and over again.
00:07:26.27\00:07:28.44
What point, where do you
stop? Where did they begin?
00:07:28.48\00:07:31.78
Where did they begin
and when did you stop?
00:07:31.81\00:07:33.15
And there was
another part to it that...
00:07:33.18\00:07:34.62
You haven't heard me
in full sound on this,
00:07:34.65\00:07:36.55
but it's worth thinking about.
00:07:36.58\00:07:38.25
In the US and
the West in general,
00:07:38.29\00:07:41.06
where we have...
00:07:41.09\00:07:43.22
Certainly since
the enlightenment
00:07:43.26\00:07:44.89
and the whole democratic period,
00:07:44.93\00:07:46.73
you know, the US is not
00:07:46.76\00:07:48.10
the only democratic
country in the world,
00:07:48.13\00:07:50.33
but in its constitution,
00:07:50.37\00:07:51.77
it embodies it in a
more self-conscious way
00:07:51.80\00:07:54.07
than most others.
00:07:54.10\00:07:55.44
But, you know, in a
western democratic era,
00:07:55.47\00:07:59.07
we understand that free speech
00:07:59.11\00:08:03.18
and religion is
going to be protected,
00:08:03.21\00:08:05.88
but when you're talking
about religious commitment,
00:08:05.91\00:08:11.49
it's not really necessary
00:08:11.52\00:08:14.36
that you will always
be given an accommodation.
00:08:14.39\00:08:16.93
Jesus said that,
"All who live a godly live
00:08:16.96\00:08:19.36
will suffer persecution."
00:08:19.39\00:08:21.26
And there may be instances,
00:08:21.30\00:08:23.40
in fact, there
really are even now
00:08:23.43\00:08:24.93
in many instances in daily life,
00:08:24.97\00:08:27.24
you take a penalty.
00:08:27.27\00:08:29.34
It could be not
being thought as well of
00:08:29.37\00:08:31.77
by your worldly neighbors
who don't identify with it,
00:08:31.81\00:08:35.21
you know, they're a bit unusual.
00:08:35.24\00:08:36.98
It could be if
you're a shopkeeper,
00:08:37.01\00:08:38.48
you get penalized.
00:08:38.51\00:08:39.98
The Hobby Lobby owners
00:08:40.02\00:08:42.88
who got a
Supreme Court exemption
00:08:42.92\00:08:44.62
for their not
wanting to offer a service
00:08:44.65\00:08:48.46
to their employees
00:08:48.49\00:08:49.82
who may or may not have shared
their religious viewpoint,
00:08:49.86\00:08:53.06
you know, they made
someone else pay the cost,
00:08:53.09\00:08:56.06
but all it was at stake for them
00:08:56.10\00:08:57.63
was they would have paid an
equivalent fine to the value
00:08:57.67\00:09:02.50
of what they should
have been providing.
00:09:02.54\00:09:04.01
Right.
00:09:04.04\00:09:05.37
There's a penalty, sometimes,
just an inconvenience.
00:09:05.41\00:09:08.34
If you read
Foxe's Book of Martyrs,
00:09:08.38\00:09:09.74
sometimes, you
lost your life over it.
00:09:09.78\00:09:11.68
And going into any commitment,
00:09:11.71\00:09:14.52
particularly a faith commitment,
00:09:14.55\00:09:15.98
if it's worth it,
00:09:16.02\00:09:17.35
you have to be prepared
to pay whatever it takes.
00:09:17.39\00:09:20.06
Right. Right.
00:09:20.09\00:09:21.42
And I think people
are forgetting that...
00:09:21.46\00:09:22.79
Right.
00:09:22.82\00:09:24.16
They think that an entitlement
00:09:24.19\00:09:25.53
should be yours regardless of...
00:09:25.56\00:09:27.76
And the lawyers all
know that religious liberty
00:09:27.80\00:09:30.43
is not an absolute in
society, there's a balancing.
00:09:30.47\00:09:33.44
Your freedom, if it restricts
someone else's greatly,
00:09:33.47\00:09:37.74
you know, the civil society
00:09:37.77\00:09:39.11
can't allow that in
unrestricted manner.
00:09:39.14\00:09:41.54
Right. Right.
00:09:41.58\00:09:42.91
And you can only
accommodate to a certain point,
00:09:42.94\00:09:45.35
you can't always be
expected to accommodate
00:09:45.38\00:09:47.78
and you can't always expect
the accommodation for yourself.
00:09:47.82\00:09:51.52
And you're right,
00:09:51.55\00:09:52.89
if you're going to
stand on commitment,
00:09:52.92\00:09:54.29
you have to be
prepared to reckon
00:09:54.32\00:09:57.59
with what will
follow of the consequences
00:09:57.63\00:09:59.59
would be
unfortunately sometimes.
00:09:59.63\00:10:01.73
And I've dealt
with religious liberty
00:10:01.76\00:10:03.10
for so long and
I really appreciate
00:10:03.13\00:10:04.87
how Message keeps coming at
this topic too as you should
00:10:04.90\00:10:07.90
because it's
legitimate part of it.
00:10:07.94\00:10:10.14
But when there's
compulsion involved,
00:10:10.17\00:10:13.34
it breaks the principle.
00:10:13.38\00:10:15.21
And in essence,
00:10:15.24\00:10:16.58
you compete
creating that compulsion
00:10:16.61\00:10:18.41
by your privileged position.
00:10:18.45\00:10:20.05
Mm-hmm.
00:10:20.08\00:10:21.68
I'm mixing another
Supreme Court case,
00:10:21.72\00:10:23.25
but I really think
the Hobby Lobby case,
00:10:23.28\00:10:25.65
you know, was settled
00:10:25.69\00:10:27.02
by the Supreme
Court to a legal point,
00:10:27.06\00:10:29.36
but I think it was an
injustice in advance to people
00:10:29.39\00:10:34.10
who might have
made a choice toward it
00:10:34.13\00:10:36.77
or even if they agreed
00:10:36.80\00:10:38.70
with the Hobby Lobby
owners, here, legally,
00:10:38.73\00:10:42.40
they've been forced to go along
with their view ahead of time
00:10:42.44\00:10:45.04
before they've
made their moral choice.
00:10:45.07\00:10:47.98
That's right. That's right.
00:10:48.01\00:10:49.34
And I'm not happy with
it, not comfortable with it.
00:10:49.38\00:10:51.95
No.
00:10:51.98\00:10:53.31
And I think we
have to get to the point
00:10:53.35\00:10:55.18
where we are
comfortable being around
00:10:55.22\00:10:57.65
and expressing our differing
00:10:57.69\00:10:59.32
and conflicting
opinions with other people.
00:10:59.35\00:11:02.22
Now you hear people
all the time saying that,
00:11:02.26\00:11:05.99
but it doesn't
work out so well...
00:11:06.03\00:11:07.60
No.
00:11:07.63\00:11:08.96
In the public affair,
00:11:09.00\00:11:10.73
you know, trying to
express your opinion
00:11:10.77\00:11:13.30
and still being
human and decent about it,
00:11:13.34\00:11:16.81
you know, and that's
why I like your example,
00:11:16.84\00:11:18.94
you know, if
somebody had come to me,
00:11:18.97\00:11:20.88
what could I say
and how could I say it
00:11:20.91\00:11:23.14
and I believe
that goes a long way
00:11:23.18\00:11:25.98
to creating some understanding
00:11:26.01\00:11:27.92
and in some cases,
some changes of opinion,
00:11:27.95\00:11:31.12
And I think that I
told you privately,
00:11:31.15\00:11:32.99
but it troubles me
and I don't run a store,
00:11:33.02\00:11:36.46
but, you know,
if you do anything
00:11:36.49\00:11:37.83
that deals with
the general public,
00:11:37.86\00:11:39.96
you have to know, at
least intellectually,
00:11:40.00\00:11:42.33
you can't prove in many
cases, but through that door,
00:11:42.36\00:11:45.73
in any given day,
00:11:45.77\00:11:47.10
have to come wife
beaters, child abusers,
00:11:47.14\00:11:49.90
thieves of different nature,
00:11:49.94\00:11:52.37
people that are
cheating of their tax...
00:11:52.41\00:11:54.58
Yes. Yes.
00:11:54.61\00:11:55.94
I mean, it's a wider
road, people that have just gone
00:11:55.98\00:11:57.78
to a strip club
or whatever or...
00:11:57.81\00:12:00.28
Over and over,
00:12:00.32\00:12:01.65
things on a
gamut of discolorations
00:12:01.68\00:12:04.62
on moral behavior...
00:12:04.65\00:12:05.99
Right.
00:12:06.02\00:12:07.36
And even illegal behavior,
00:12:07.39\00:12:08.72
but you don't know
unless they self- identify
00:12:08.76\00:12:11.19
and make it a issue
with you in discussion.
00:12:11.23\00:12:13.43
You have to treat them all
00:12:13.46\00:12:15.26
as Jesus would
have treated people.
00:12:15.30\00:12:17.37
You know, and the
charge against Jesus was that
00:12:17.40\00:12:19.07
He kept company with
publicans and sinners.
00:12:19.10\00:12:22.57
Well, the people
always used to ask me,
00:12:22.60\00:12:25.04
when I practiced law
00:12:25.07\00:12:26.88
and did a little
criminal defense,
00:12:26.91\00:12:28.24
so people always ask me,
00:12:28.28\00:12:29.61
"How can you
defend these people,
00:12:29.64\00:12:30.98
especially these people
that you know are guilty?"
00:12:31.01\00:12:33.55
And it's true, at any
point, you can have somebody
00:12:33.58\00:12:36.72
who would do something
you would never think about
00:12:36.75\00:12:39.79
and would not want to
associate with that person
00:12:39.82\00:12:41.89
if you did know it, I
mean, that's not your...
00:12:41.92\00:12:43.26
Well, you're getting on to
the lawyer's conundrum now.
00:12:43.29\00:12:45.39
No, but I guess my point
though is the same point is that
00:12:45.43\00:12:48.73
there is a greater
principle at work as well.
00:12:48.76\00:12:52.17
And so for me
in the legal realm,
00:12:52.20\00:12:54.94
I believe in that
person's constitutional right
00:12:54.97\00:12:58.04
to having a
person, an advocate...
00:12:58.07\00:13:01.38
Someone who can
speak their position.
00:13:01.41\00:13:03.55
But, you know,
00:13:03.58\00:13:04.91
when we're talking
about religious liberty issue,
00:13:04.95\00:13:07.15
the greater issue or the thing
00:13:07.18\00:13:09.52
that I want to protect
most is that conscience,
00:13:09.55\00:13:12.39
that freedom of conscience,
00:13:12.42\00:13:13.76
and that ability to
arrive at whatever decision
00:13:13.79\00:13:17.13
based on your conscience.
00:13:17.16\00:13:18.69
I'm not going to force that
and I'm not going to refuse it
00:13:18.73\00:13:22.36
so there's a de facto
compulsion as you've said.
00:13:22.40\00:13:25.40
But I dropped the term before,
but I think that's the stand-in
00:13:25.43\00:13:28.67
for religious freedom
any more, it's entitlement.
00:13:28.70\00:13:31.17
Yes.
00:13:31.21\00:13:32.54
A religious entitlement is
not true religious freedom,
00:13:32.57\00:13:35.34
it's a legal
track for how you think
00:13:35.38\00:13:38.21
with a little
concern for other people.
00:13:38.25\00:13:40.92
Right. Well, let's
take a break there.
00:13:40.95\00:13:44.09
Please stay with us.
There's plenty more to discuss.
00:13:44.12\00:13:46.82
And we'll be
back in a few moments
00:13:46.86\00:13:49.12
with the Liberty Insider.
00:13:49.16\00:13:50.69