Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:00:06.47\00:00:08.14
Before the break,
00:00:08.17\00:00:10.51
I was probably
making your head spin
00:00:10.54\00:00:13.94
with the different
connection I was trying to make.
00:00:13.98\00:00:16.64
But all starting from
00:00:16.68\00:00:18.15
what we're
living through in the US
00:00:18.18\00:00:19.88
and unprecedented alliance
of a number of religious leaders
00:00:19.91\00:00:23.95
with the aims and
policies of an administration
00:00:23.99\00:00:28.19
and political party.
00:00:28.22\00:00:29.56
That's always
dangerous, isn't it?
00:00:29.59\00:00:30.93
It's always dangerous.
00:00:30.96\00:00:32.29
And we see that
in the establishment
00:00:32.33\00:00:36.13
in the opening of the
new embassy in Jerusalem.
00:00:36.16\00:00:38.13
Right.
00:00:38.17\00:00:39.50
I was wanting to get on to that.
00:00:39.53\00:00:40.87
And we see the
backing and the risk though,
00:00:40.90\00:00:44.44
the complete confidence
that this is going to play out
00:00:44.47\00:00:49.31
the way we wanted to
play out for certain groups
00:00:49.34\00:00:52.05
which is a
scary prospect for me.
00:00:52.08\00:00:56.48
This was my
point all along is that
00:00:56.52\00:00:58.42
even if this is
something that you hold close,
00:00:58.45\00:01:02.16
this is
something that you believe
00:01:02.19\00:01:03.73
needs to happen for
the end of the world
00:01:03.76\00:01:05.93
which I don't
ascribe to that point of view
00:01:05.96\00:01:08.53
but there are many
people who believe that.
00:01:08.56\00:01:11.07
There has to be something
within your heart that says,
00:01:11.10\00:01:14.84
"When you mow down 50 people
with gun fire on the same day,
00:01:14.87\00:01:20.28
is this the way
that we want this to go?
00:01:20.31\00:01:23.81
When we injure more than
200 people in the opening
00:01:23.85\00:01:27.85
in this glorious
opening of this embassy,
00:01:27.88\00:01:32.05
is this really
where we're being led?
00:01:32.09\00:01:36.16
Well, and even to say it,
00:01:36.19\00:01:38.86
you're risking
people coming at you,
00:01:38.89\00:01:40.96
because that's not
supportive say of Israel.
00:01:41.00\00:01:44.47
I know that.
00:01:44.50\00:01:45.83
But your point is
correct because by casting
00:01:45.87\00:01:49.07
the lot of the church
in with the political goal,
00:01:49.10\00:01:52.57
then a moral ambiguity
that happens at the same time
00:01:52.61\00:01:56.31
can't be spoken out
00:01:56.34\00:01:57.68
because your view is
that you're supporting
00:01:57.71\00:02:00.38
the embassy and the US's role
00:02:00.42\00:02:02.15
and that's
inconvenient truth to borrow...
00:02:02.18\00:02:05.15
Where I'll go.
00:02:05.19\00:02:07.49
And I'll go and comment.
00:02:07.52\00:02:10.99
We should be able to speak
00:02:11.03\00:02:12.36
to the morality
of whatever happens.
00:02:12.39\00:02:15.60
But we can't, it's
muscling the church.
00:02:15.63\00:02:18.27
It's muscling the church.
00:02:18.30\00:02:19.63
Muscling the church and
compromising the church.
00:02:19.67\00:02:22.64
I don't think it
should speak at all
00:02:22.67\00:02:25.14
to whether Israel has legitimacy
00:02:25.17\00:02:27.28
or whether we have
empathy toward those
00:02:27.31\00:02:30.51
that over their recent ancestors
00:02:30.55\00:02:33.45
that escape the holocaust
to critique that action,
00:02:33.48\00:02:38.05
but the way it's
set up, no, you dare not
00:02:38.09\00:02:40.46
because in this case,
00:02:40.49\00:02:42.22
the Palestine is far, far worse.
00:02:42.26\00:02:44.36
It's basically a
global situation ethics.
00:02:44.39\00:02:47.03
Right, right.
00:02:47.06\00:02:48.40
And it is one that tests
00:02:48.43\00:02:50.67
our ideas in how
far our understanding
00:02:50.70\00:02:55.27
of religious liberty
and religious practice,
00:02:55.30\00:02:58.41
you know, obviously that
is the worst case scenario
00:02:58.44\00:03:01.38
to have the major
religions of the world
00:03:01.41\00:03:03.85
laying claim to
the same territory
00:03:03.88\00:03:06.05
and the same important space.
00:03:06.08\00:03:10.22
And yes, we have to
find and learn from the same
00:03:10.25\00:03:13.42
or impart the same principles.
00:03:13.46\00:03:15.96
Something is
going to happen there,
00:03:15.99\00:03:17.79
and we don't know and prophecy
doesn't directly speak to it.
00:03:17.83\00:03:21.53
But I'm inclined to think
00:03:21.56\00:03:22.90
it's going to become a
religious safe zone with,
00:03:22.93\00:03:26.70
who know, someone
00:03:26.74\00:03:28.07
perhaps even the
Roman Pontiff might set up
00:03:28.10\00:03:30.81
as the chairman
of the board there.
00:03:30.84\00:03:33.58
You know, that's a
prediction that you...
00:03:33.61\00:03:36.51
I don't know.
00:03:36.54\00:03:37.88
This program, I
said before years ago,
00:03:37.91\00:03:42.15
we had an interview
00:03:42.18\00:03:43.52
with the head of the Palestine
liberation organization
00:03:43.55\00:03:49.29
and we spoke about the agreement
00:03:49.32\00:03:52.19
between Pope John
Paul II and Arafat.
00:03:52.23\00:03:55.20
They signed a contract.
00:03:55.23\00:03:57.13
And he said,
"Yes, the holy father"
00:03:57.17\00:04:00.14
as he called him.
00:04:00.17\00:04:01.80
He's intermittently involved
00:04:01.84\00:04:03.17
with the
disposition of Jerusalem.
00:04:03.20\00:04:04.54
It would make sense.
00:04:04.57\00:04:07.14
In fact, if I didn't have a
prophetic sense and a sense of
00:04:07.18\00:04:09.71
separation of church and
state, I would say, "Fine.
00:04:09.74\00:04:12.61
Make it a religiously
open city and put perhaps
00:04:12.65\00:04:15.88
one of the most respected
religious leaders there
00:04:15.92\00:04:19.25
to sort of preside over it."
00:04:19.29\00:04:21.42
But unfortunately, it
will lead to more of the same.
00:04:21.46\00:04:25.69
But in the US at least, I
just think there needs to be
00:04:25.73\00:04:28.93
a de-connection of
political leaders and figures,
00:04:28.96\00:04:32.83
religious leaders
from political figures.
00:04:32.87\00:04:35.17
Now someone that, I'll name him
00:04:35.20\00:04:37.51
because he's a very
public figure, the lawyer with
00:04:37.54\00:04:41.54
the American Centre
for Law and Justice...
00:04:41.58\00:04:44.45
In fact, I wouldn't name him
00:04:44.48\00:04:46.48
but he's well
known, well secular.
00:04:46.51\00:04:51.62
I appreciated at a
lot of what he did.
00:04:51.65\00:04:53.66
He stood very powerfully
for some of the things
00:04:53.69\00:04:56.79
that Liberty has
reported on over the years,
00:04:56.83\00:05:00.93
religious prejudice cases
and free exercise and so on.
00:05:00.96\00:05:04.83
But he and his fellows joined
ranks with this administration,
00:05:04.87\00:05:08.47
he became legal
counselor of the president.
00:05:08.50\00:05:11.51
And lawyers defend the
indefensible on occasion
00:05:11.54\00:05:14.98
but it just seems to me,
00:05:15.01\00:05:16.34
you can't move
your religious program
00:05:16.38\00:05:18.85
and take it in to
the centre of profanity
00:05:18.88\00:05:24.52
and expect that
you're morally pure anymore.
00:05:24.55\00:05:27.52
It's sad.
00:05:27.56\00:05:29.02
That's what I mostly see
00:05:29.06\00:05:30.39
and that's not so
much dangerous, that's sad.
00:05:30.43\00:05:32.59
That's sad.
00:05:32.63\00:05:33.96
And people, many of them
00:05:34.00\00:05:35.76
objected to a
previous presidential candidate
00:05:35.80\00:05:38.33
because they
didn't like his religion.
00:05:38.37\00:05:41.27
And now someone,
and those around him
00:05:41.30\00:05:43.74
of no particular
religion or religious ambiguity,
00:05:43.77\00:05:49.74
fine because he
will do what they want.
00:05:49.78\00:05:52.05
That's expediency
of the highest degree.
00:05:52.08\00:05:54.32
Of course, there have been
Cyruses and others in the past
00:05:54.35\00:05:58.65
that have mandated things
00:05:58.69\00:06:01.29
that had benefited God's people.
00:06:01.32\00:06:02.82
But don't call
them the promised one.
00:06:02.86\00:06:05.83
And sadly, this is where we are.
00:06:05.86\00:06:07.63
But that's where people
have no spiritual perception go.
00:06:07.66\00:06:10.83
Right.
00:06:10.87\00:06:12.20
And so my prayer is
that the United States
00:06:12.23\00:06:14.40
that rediscovers its
origins and the constitution,
00:06:14.44\00:06:17.84
separation of church and state
00:06:17.87\00:06:19.74
for the
government and for society,
00:06:19.77\00:06:22.14
rediscover practical
religion for the community.
00:06:22.18\00:06:26.01
You know a
godless profane culture
00:06:26.05\00:06:28.65
cannot become religious again
00:06:28.68\00:06:30.95
by joining the
priest and the legislators.
00:06:30.99\00:06:34.82
But that exactly
what is happening.
00:06:34.86\00:06:36.19
Yeah.
00:06:36.22\00:06:37.56
We're expecting the people
00:06:37.59\00:06:39.29
that previously we have
not expected to carry that flag
00:06:39.33\00:06:42.33
to do that for us,
00:06:42.36\00:06:43.70
and we are sort of endorsing by,
00:06:43.73\00:06:47.60
you know, our support for
them in everything they do.
00:06:47.64\00:06:49.24
And I know you
featured some things
00:06:49.27\00:06:50.87
on the reformation last year,
00:06:50.91\00:06:54.24
and the
reformation was western culture
00:06:54.28\00:06:56.61
breaking loose of that dynamic.
00:06:56.64\00:06:58.61
Right, right.
00:06:58.65\00:06:59.98
We were
delivering it back again.
00:07:00.02\00:07:01.68
It may not happen rather way
00:07:01.72\00:07:03.18
but we're clearly drifting
back into that enchanted ground.
00:07:03.22\00:07:07.36
Well, and you know,
00:07:07.39\00:07:08.72
you mentioned that particular
story or set of articles
00:07:08.76\00:07:12.36
that we ran in
Message, our whole take is,
00:07:12.39\00:07:15.53
you know, it's
500 years of protest.
00:07:15.56\00:07:18.03
And as African American...
And that protest out...
00:07:18.07\00:07:20.90
Yeah, we're going
to continue to protest
00:07:20.94\00:07:23.54
because there are so
many different facets
00:07:23.57\00:07:25.77
that you have to
continue to watch,
00:07:25.81\00:07:28.51
especially the ones
where the rubber meets the road
00:07:28.54\00:07:31.48
and it affects people
on a day-to-day basis.
00:07:31.51\00:07:34.12
And so like we said before,
00:07:34.15\00:07:35.62
as we see the religious groups
backing the administration
00:07:35.65\00:07:41.69
but we see so many vulnerable
00:07:41.72\00:07:44.19
people pushed
out at the same time,
00:07:44.23\00:07:47.13
shouldn't it have
the opposite effect?
00:07:47.16\00:07:49.60
Shouldn't it not
only have the effect of
00:07:49.63\00:07:54.47
allowing people to understand
00:07:54.50\00:07:56.20
and have a
broader spiritual effect,
00:07:56.24\00:07:59.57
but also uplift their lives.
00:07:59.61\00:08:01.58
But we're seeing as this force
00:08:01.61\00:08:04.31
and the religious
influence get together
00:08:04.35\00:08:07.05
and what we
know from prophecy is
00:08:07.08\00:08:08.95
it is not a lifting of our bowls
00:08:08.98\00:08:11.69
and we're seeing
people lose their lives.
00:08:11.72\00:08:13.36
And you used the
term and I understood it
00:08:13.39\00:08:15.69
but I want to pick up
on it, you know, backing.
00:08:15.72\00:08:17.23
There's nothing wrong
with religious leaders
00:08:17.26\00:08:20.00
backing in the
sense of being supportive
00:08:20.03\00:08:22.36
of a government on
something particular
00:08:22.40\00:08:25.23
but to be wholesale
supporters is always dangerous.
00:08:25.27\00:08:28.54
Billy Graham who recently
died had a checked history,
00:08:28.57\00:08:31.87
but overall, he was a
strong moral force in the US,
00:08:31.91\00:08:34.81
but toward the end,
00:08:34.84\00:08:36.21
he said that he
had made a mistake
00:08:36.24\00:08:38.11
in becoming so
politically identified
00:08:38.15\00:08:40.82
with these different presidents.
00:08:40.85\00:08:42.68
You know, he got to the
point where in the back room,
00:08:42.72\00:08:44.89
he's sort of suggesting
policy that they should take
00:08:44.92\00:08:48.29
and they listen to him
because of his moral clout.
00:08:48.32\00:08:51.03
That wasn't really right.
00:08:51.06\00:08:53.03
I counted that not
counter but in comparison,
00:08:53.06\00:08:57.00
we just did a story
featuring Chaplin Barry Black,
00:08:57.03\00:09:01.60
the United States Senate...
00:09:01.64\00:09:02.97
He's in a pivotal
position, isn't it?
00:09:03.00\00:09:04.34
Pivotal, very
interesting position
00:09:04.37\00:09:06.17
but his whole things are...
00:09:06.21\00:09:07.68
I can, based on my
reading of the Bible,
00:09:07.71\00:09:10.95
based on my relation,
00:09:10.98\00:09:12.31
I can bring about my
views from both philosophy,
00:09:12.35\00:09:16.72
from my spiritual standpoint,
and my reading of the Bible
00:09:16.75\00:09:19.39
without being partisan
00:09:19.42\00:09:21.12
and I don't have to
weigh in on every issue
00:09:21.16\00:09:23.63
but I can give my perspective,
00:09:23.66\00:09:26.29
and I believe
that's interesting...
00:09:26.33\00:09:27.66
Yeah.
00:09:27.70\00:09:29.03
And I've heard him
say a number of times,
00:09:29.06\00:09:30.40
and once, years ago,
he told me privately,
00:09:30.43\00:09:32.17
he believes that
he's sort of a Daniel
00:09:32.20\00:09:34.04
put there at a
pivotal type of place.
00:09:34.07\00:09:36.00
I asked him that. He
says, "No, I'm Barry."
00:09:36.04\00:09:40.18
That is interesting perspective.
00:09:40.21\00:09:42.21
Yeah, there's no question.
00:09:42.24\00:09:45.55
But there's more like
him, he's not the only one.
00:09:45.58\00:09:47.95
And we need to say
00:09:47.98\00:09:49.32
there's a positive
aspect of people of faith
00:09:49.35\00:09:51.82
planted in these positions
and they're not open about it
00:09:51.85\00:09:55.22
but their faith
determines how they react,
00:09:55.26\00:09:57.66
but they're not
promoting their identity.
00:09:57.69\00:10:00.50
Right, right. Right.
00:10:00.53\00:10:01.86
I hope to see more
that I love the fact
00:10:01.90\00:10:04.20
that Barry
Black was such a great
00:10:04.23\00:10:06.50
and outspoken
spiritual representative.
00:10:06.53\00:10:08.80
At a recent Liberty dinner,
00:10:12.07\00:10:14.51
I had special opportunity
00:10:14.54\00:10:16.51
to bring a brief
welcome to the attendees
00:10:16.54\00:10:20.02
from the
Washington establishment.
00:10:20.05\00:10:22.72
Not wanting to be
openly critical of
00:10:22.75\00:10:25.05
what's happening with
church involvement in politics,
00:10:25.09\00:10:28.02
I said that lately,
00:10:28.06\00:10:30.33
there has been the
appeal of the Milvian Bridge
00:10:30.36\00:10:34.30
and the Claymont solution.
00:10:34.33\00:10:36.97
The Milvian Bridge was the
calling card of Constantine
00:10:37.00\00:10:41.10
when he took over
civil control of Christianity
00:10:41.14\00:10:44.84
and the other
was the proclamation
00:10:44.87\00:10:48.18
of the first crusade
that led in a very dangerous
00:10:48.21\00:10:51.28
and violent
direction for Christianity.
00:10:51.31\00:10:54.78
I'm afraid that today,
00:10:54.82\00:10:56.38
many Christian
leaders in the United States
00:10:56.42\00:10:58.95
and their search for power
are risking the Milvian Bridge
00:10:58.99\00:11:04.49
and even the Claymont solution
00:11:04.53\00:11:08.63
to what is at root religious
conflict in our world today.
00:11:08.66\00:11:13.03
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:11:13.07\00:11:16.14