Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI180407A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is your program 00:29 featuring religious liberty news, 00:32 and evaluation from the US and around the world. 00:35 My name Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:39 And my guest on this program is Carmela... 00:44 I hesitate on your name all the time 00:45 as I've said before 00:47 because I knew you before your marriage, 00:48 but it's Carmela Monk Crawford. 00:51 That's right. You got it. 00:52 Carmela Monk for me always, 00:54 but you've got a good husband and a good name. 00:57 Amen. 00:58 Let's talk about the world that she is. 01:05 The US has gone through an interesting period 01:08 in the recent years. 01:10 And by the way, 01:12 I'm older than I ever thought I would get to be, 01:16 and I'm doing numbers lately. 01:18 And proportionate numbers like, I've been alive 01:23 for half the time of Liberty Magazine, 01:25 not editor, nearly 20 years editor. 01:28 But you know, that's a short term period. 01:31 But when I look at the history of the US, 01:34 I can remember a lot of the presidents. 01:37 I think I've been alive 01:39 about a quarter of the history of the US. 01:42 Wow. 01:43 Since independence, something like that. 01:45 I better be careful 01:46 'cause I haven't done the sums lately. 01:48 But, you know, 01:49 so we think it's ancient history, 01:51 but any grown adult really has a good compass of events 01:56 in their own memory. 01:57 And by my life memory, 01:59 we're in a period of rapid evolution, 02:02 things are just crazy at the moment. 02:06 And I can't remember a period 02:10 when religion has been so politically aligned 02:16 as it is at the moment. 02:19 As a kid, I remember the fear. 02:20 I was in Australia at the time 02:22 but the fear that John F. Kennedy 02:24 might win the presidential election 02:26 and he's a Roman Catholic, 02:27 back when this was an overtly Protestant country, 02:30 you know, might do something 02:32 on towards on religious freedom, 02:34 turned out not to be the case. 02:35 Right. 02:37 He understood the separation of church and state. 02:40 But what do you make today of this incredible alliance 02:43 between some of the leading 02:45 evangelical figures and forces, 02:50 and the present administration? 02:51 Wow. 02:53 What a loaded question! 02:54 First of all, I think it is unfortunate. 02:58 I'd have to say. 02:59 it is unfortunate that a few of the more vocal 03:05 and more politically connected people 03:08 have set the agenda from a religious point of view. 03:11 When we look at the greed that underlies 03:15 and underpins so much 03:17 that we have going on in the country, 03:18 when we look at the militarism, when we look at the nationalism 03:23 or the national pride, 03:24 we look at the rise in civil rights 03:29 and problems like this and we see... 03:31 You're calling it nationalism, we used to call it jingoism. 03:33 Yes, yes. 03:35 Well, when we look at these... 03:36 This is not true nationalism, it's jingoism. 03:38 It's jingoism. 03:40 When we look at these things that are happening 03:42 and we see that there is a certain group, 03:46 many would say that the evangelicals 03:48 have been so influential in leading the way 03:52 in terms of determining 03:53 what is important from a religious standpoint. 03:56 And they've done some good things. 03:57 They have done some good things. 03:58 I mean, it got qualified, it's not all bad. 04:00 Yeah. 04:01 And I don't mean to paint with such a broad brush. 04:04 I do it too. 04:05 So I understand where you're going. 04:06 In a very real sense, I'm an evangelical 04:10 but I do believe that 04:12 the religious landscape in the places 04:14 in which we can insert ourselves 04:16 is so much broader, 04:17 then the gun debate or the abortion debate 04:21 or anyone of the narrow things, a prayer in schools. 04:26 When we see that children don't have water at home, 04:30 then we have to realize, 04:31 you know, it's more than just a few small issues. 04:34 And maybe not even prayer at home. 04:36 Well, maybe not prayer at home, but I'm saying, you know... 04:39 I guess my emphasis is on the focus of a few issues 04:42 and the focus on individual responsibility 04:46 in, "why can't you do this 04:47 and why aren't you where you need to be 04:50 and let's get you going by cutting you off 04:52 or talking you off of the public door, 04:55 or getting you out of public housing," 04:57 and all that sort of things. 04:58 And I don't mean this to be from a political standpoint, 05:00 I'm saying from a religious standpoint. 05:03 They have articulated what they believe 05:05 are the important issues. 05:06 I believe it's so much bigger, 05:08 and that's how I believe as a Christian, 05:10 Jesus was so much more comprehensive, 05:14 you know, your religion has to be way bigger. 05:15 Well, certainly, there's no evidence 05:16 that Jesus was politically oriented. 05:19 I don't agree with that. 05:20 But I do believe that... 05:22 The main thing He said at the end, He said, 05:23 "My kingdom is not of this world, if it were, 05:25 My followers would fight for me." 05:27 How interesting those... 05:29 He was political critique. 05:31 He called Herod "that old fox." 05:33 That old fox. That was a pretty heavy thing. 05:35 That's pretty good. 05:36 Back in those days and right up through 05:42 very close to the time of the... 05:43 Well, even after the American Revolution, 05:48 I don't know if you know 05:50 the Alien and Sedition Acts in the US. 05:51 It was a capital offence to criticize the president. 05:54 Correct. 05:55 I don't know they actually executed anyone 05:56 but they were ready to do it. 05:58 So in that era, 05:59 He could have been crucified for that alone. 06:02 And maybe political in the narrow sense, 06:06 but it's certainly the things that Jesus cared about 06:09 and talked about had political implications. 06:12 And certainly, the vulnerable that people say, 06:16 "Let's not talk about that because that's political, " 06:19 the vulnerable are who Jesus talked about 06:21 and who He cared about. 06:22 So you can see that time in time. 06:24 And I agree with you. 06:25 And this is a good time for me to throw in the qualifier, 06:27 I know that people tend to forget. 06:31 I hear all the time, politicians, 06:34 when there's some big issue at hand, saying, 06:35 "I'm not being political on this." 06:38 And of course, they're being political 06:39 because it's a political issue, they are a political player. 06:42 What they really mean and what we should qualify 06:45 is I'm not being partisan 06:47 or a party oriented. 06:51 Everything that religious liberty 06:53 has to deal with, and the Liberty Magazine, 06:55 and I think even your magazine deals with 06:58 has political ramifications, you can't avoid that. 07:02 You're dealing with society, that's political. 07:05 But we do need to avoid, like the plague, partisan, 07:08 party affiliation, 07:10 but at the moment, 07:12 we have the counter to that 07:14 with a number of the leading religious figures. 07:17 They've joined themselves at the hip 07:19 to a political administration 07:21 and the party that goes with it. 07:24 To a fault. 07:26 Now that's their right of citizens, 07:27 but as religious leaders, I think it's improper. 07:31 I think I tend to agree with you. 07:33 I think, sadly 07:36 because there are so much momentum 07:40 in that direction, 07:41 the counter balance looks like you have to align yourself 07:45 with the opposing party, 07:46 which I wish that was not the case. 07:48 I wish there was a happy medium where we can talk 07:53 and dialogue with Christians who say, 07:55 "Look at these issues and this is 07:57 what I want to do about this. 07:58 And I'm not going to blindly follow anybody." 08:00 But you ask me... 08:02 We should be issue oriented not party oriented. 08:03 Yes, I agree with that. 08:05 And we should be working for justice 08:06 and freedom for all people. 08:08 Yes, you asked me... 08:09 When dealing with the parties, it starts to narrow down. 08:10 It's party interest not national interest. 08:13 Right. 08:16 And if nothing else, they've lent their credibility 08:19 or their church's credibility to an effort to exclude people. 08:24 These are quite broad exclusions 08:28 for people from other countries. 08:30 That's not really a Christian view even though, 08:34 you know, you understand the paranoid 08:35 that lies behind it, 08:36 but it's not a Christian way to deal with it. 08:38 No, no. 08:39 I agree that it's not a Christian way. 08:41 I think... 08:42 And worse, it goes directly 08:44 against the clearly stated aims of the framers 08:47 in the treaty of Tripoli, you know, of the treaty. 08:49 It says, "This country is for all people, 08:51 not Christian, it's not a Christian republic, 08:54 it's for the Muhammad and so on. 08:57 Well, people of other faiths start to wonder, you know. 09:00 If you don't like my religion and some elements of it, 09:03 it might be problematic but you keep me out 09:06 because of that, a broad brush, 09:08 that's not right. 09:09 And here Christian leaders 09:11 have lent their support to something 09:14 that's not charitable, nor legal 09:19 in the truest understanding of what America stands for. 09:22 When you go so much deeper, you have to wonder, 09:26 "What is behind that? 09:28 Why, when on the face of this even, 09:32 this, you know, we are separating families, 09:35 on the face of this, 09:37 we are applying our immigration laws 09:39 in our deep history of welcoming the stranger 09:42 and the foreigner and the immigrant? 09:44 Why even on the face of this, when this is inconsistent 09:47 with who are as a country, 09:49 why are we willing to do this now? 09:51 Well, narrow interest. 09:53 It's not concerned for the stranger 09:57 that's within your gates or wants to come 09:59 within your gates. 10:00 Or the marginalization in the other reign, 10:03 I know that you covered that... 10:04 Yeah, you read Liberty. 10:06 You have an article on authoring. 10:07 Yes. 10:09 And other, in fact, in some languages, 10:11 the word for a stranger or non member of your society, 10:17 it's another, they're not human, 10:19 evens often, it's just some... 10:22 It's not to be equated with real people. 10:25 Right. 10:27 And I believe human beings 10:29 naturally want to connect with other human beings 10:32 so to act badly toward them or inward to even harm them, 10:37 you have to dehumanize them. 10:41 And this, with a broad brush, say, 10:44 everyone from there is dangerous there, 10:46 they might bomb you or whatever, 10:47 that turns them into sort of terrorist ciphers 10:51 rather than human beings. 10:52 Right. 10:54 And not taking the time 10:55 to create either a structural or an inquiry 10:58 that would allow you to separate on actual threat 11:03 from someone who is not a threat, 11:06 and you know, avoiding the broad brush, 11:09 but I think it's interesting, 11:10 I was reading an article not too long ago, 11:13 and I think it's some of the same sources 11:18 and information that you covered. 11:20 The article it's talking about, and this is a quote 11:22 from a man from a place called Genocide Watch. 11:26 I'm saying this with a smile, 11:28 I don't know why I'm saying with a smile, 11:29 it's a very scary information about the patterns 11:32 and they go around the world and they discover, 11:35 you know, what leads to this horrific event where people... 11:38 Dehumanization. 11:40 Yeah, when they turn on each other, 11:41 and it's like you said dehumanizing somebody else 11:43 or distancing their wants, their basic human rights, 11:48 their basic human needs from my rights 11:50 and my human needs. 11:51 And then separating them and putting them aside, 11:55 I guess, in the discussion, in the dialogue, 11:59 and then as you saw I guess, with Hitler's Germany, 12:02 you saw in Rwanda, 12:03 it's a physical distance put aside. 12:07 And then you have the point where you actually get to, 12:10 where people are actually wholesale wiping others out. 12:14 But it starts with that dialogue 12:16 in the beginning in which we can distance ourselves 12:18 and make the other seem inhuman. 12:21 Yeah, absolutely. It's a correct dynamic. 12:24 But to have Christian leaders complicit, 12:28 and this is troubling to me to the extreme. 12:31 I lived in the US long enough, and you're right, 12:35 there's a tradition of welcoming a stranger. 12:37 I mean, it's written in poetry. 12:39 Emma Lazarus words are inscribed there 12:42 under the Statue of Liberty. 12:44 And you know, if you know US history, 12:45 it's been fits and starts, 12:48 but I've seen something clearly shifting relatively recently, 12:52 all during the cold war 12:54 which is most of my formative period, 12:56 your too also. 12:59 Some of it, yeah. 13:00 Yeah, not as much. 13:01 I don't know your age, you shouldn't know mine, 13:04 but still I'm a little old. 13:06 But you know, most of my life, all of my life 13:08 was in the cold war. 13:09 I mean, I was born after World War II 13:11 just to clarify that. 13:14 But the US consciously set a self up 13:20 to be a Christian nation versus godless communism. 13:23 So we had linked, sometimes improperly, 13:28 our Christian identity with our political stance 13:31 and we would welcome refugees from communism on that level. 13:35 With the collapse of the Berlin wall, 13:38 something changed. 13:40 I saw it, almost overnight. 13:42 We didn't need to keep up 13:44 what had become more of a fiction 13:46 because we had stresses economic and so on. 13:50 We didn't really so viscerally welcome people anymore 13:54 and now we didn't need to be a counterpoint 13:56 to godless communism, it was gone. 13:58 So the door started closing. 14:01 And I think we've come to an incredible pass 14:05 where I didn't actually see the footage yet. 14:08 But at the border, 14:10 they shot across the border at someone 14:11 trying to enter and kill them. 14:13 I mean, that is shades of the cold war. 14:16 We become the polar opposite. 14:19 And Christians need to look at ourselves, at our community, 14:24 and our nation how are we presenting. 14:27 Let's take a short break. 14:29 We will be back to continue this discussion, 14:31 and hopefully we'll get into more trenchant details 14:35 on why Christianity and Christian leaders 14:38 have thought to have political alliances at a time 14:41 when there's a moral complexity that they're buying into. |
Revised 2018-10-29