Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI180406B
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00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break with Carmela Monk Crawford. 00:12 And I always say it with hesitation 00:14 because I first knew you before you were married. 00:16 That's right. It's Carmela Monk. 00:18 Carmela Monk. So I have to think carefully. 00:21 But before the break, we were wandering 00:24 through the interesting fields 00:27 of how we respond to emergencies 00:30 and disasters in the military 00:31 and the civil liberty applications. 00:34 The US has been through some of that territory I think, 00:38 and Christians show that 00:42 it was important for them to respond 00:44 and to be in the leadership of dealing 00:45 with huge social ills that had structural components. 00:49 Even the Civil Rights Movement, I think was coming of age, 00:53 if you like, of Christian activism. 00:56 Well, not really coming of age, 00:57 because the evolutionist movement 00:59 to me had a huge Christian involvement. 01:02 But in the modern era, Civil Rights Movement 01:04 did give an opportunity for people of faith 01:07 to step up and speak out. 01:09 It did give an opportunity for some, 01:11 sadly not everybody to that opportunity. 01:12 I didn't say they all did. Right. 01:14 Well, and even now, you know, I was listening to 01:16 what you said before the break, 01:18 and I agree we cannot create heaven on earth. 01:22 The sad thing about it is that for people 01:25 who are not affected by the social ills, 01:29 it is just too easy to be complacent on earth. 01:33 And not only not fight for equal access 01:37 and equal justice, 01:39 but to demean and criminalize the people 01:43 and marginalize your word, marginalize the people who do. 01:47 And I think that, you know, this is one of those things 01:49 where you really have to get involved 01:52 and be vocal about 01:54 what is happening on a social basis, 01:56 especially for people who may not happen to 02:00 or things don't happen. 02:01 I may be different from you, we both have sons. 02:05 As a black mother of two black sons, 02:09 it is important to me when I think about it, 02:12 and we live in the same community. 02:14 My children, when they ride their bicycles 02:17 and if they go around the neighborhood 02:19 or if they go to school, 02:21 it's a different feel 02:23 than what I would expect could happen. 02:25 Although, you know, 02:26 it could happen to your son as well but... 02:28 Our son's been stopped a lot of times, 02:29 but I know exactly what you're talking about. 02:31 But the fear is there. 02:32 And I don't know, and I guess we're talking... 02:33 He's told me that he, in Hagerstown where we live, 02:38 he's been out wandering on his bicycle 02:40 and the police have stopped him, "Why are you here? 02:41 What are you doing?" 02:44 That's not good. 02:45 My very first introduction to the United States, 02:48 very first, the day we arrived, we stayed in Takoma Park 02:52 in apartments our church provided, 02:55 and I was 16, and I went out running, 02:58 and the police stopped me. 02:59 Yeah. 03:01 And very prejudicially, and they said, 03:04 "What are you doing?" 03:05 'Cause I didn't speak the Patwah. 03:07 I said, "Well, I'm staying in the flats over there, 03:10 apartments." 03:11 They looked at me, "What sort of language?" 03:13 And they said, 03:15 "We're looking for someone who committed a robbery, 03:16 you match the description." 03:18 And right away, I realized, "I'm a suspect." 03:20 That was a very day. 03:21 So I know young people generally, but, yes, 03:24 there's no question, young black men, 03:26 the police will... 03:28 You are fortunate to have those, 03:29 you know, from my point of view, 03:31 it helps that these things have happened to you. 03:34 It helps that you could see 03:36 that someone would make a distinction 03:38 based on your accent 03:40 or you are new, coming to a place, 03:43 or that your children, 03:44 but these are the kinds of things, 03:46 and I guess I'm going back to... 03:48 Well, there was a case recently. 03:50 Yes. 03:51 An elderly gentleman from India went out walking, 03:55 and the police stopped 03:56 and he didn't speak English properly, 03:58 and they ended up, I think they shot him. 04:00 They shot... 04:03 Is that the case where they shot? 04:04 Was that in Alabama? 04:06 No, but this was about a year... 04:08 within the last year. No, it wasn't that. 04:10 And sadly, I mean, I kind of talk about that... 04:11 That means misunderstandings on the face of it, 04:14 but there's an underlying attitude 04:16 that kicks in more here than some western countries. 04:20 And I know what you're talking about 04:21 with your sons, absolutely. 04:22 Right. 04:24 So as we see these things, 04:25 and you're talking about things lining up. 04:27 And we can't make this a heaven on earth 04:29 but we do see that the path is laid out 04:35 for people to be stopped unnecessarily, 04:37 for people to excuse it for their own security 04:41 or for their own bias or whatever reason is. 04:44 And so we see those things coming to pass 04:47 very easily right now. 04:48 But I still a Christian should speak out on that. 04:50 When injustice is done to other people, 04:53 we shouldn't say, 04:55 "Well, it's not us, it's not me." 04:56 You know... 04:58 Or that, you know, when Jesus comes back, 05:00 this will all be taken care of, and you can't fix it. 05:02 Now that's what I hear more often. 05:05 I was going to jump at something I might get, 05:07 I don't know the reaction I'll get from you. 05:09 It's before my time 05:11 but I love music and it impressed me, 05:13 Paul Robeson, an icon of American music 05:19 had his passport taken away from him. 05:21 He was not allowed to travel 05:22 because He spoke out for freedom. 05:25 You know that, right? 05:28 That doesn't fit the pattern of American thinking 05:32 that somewhere else 05:33 that someone's restricted, not here. 05:35 And I connect funny dots sometimes. 05:38 It troubles me that 05:40 even in our own Christian community, 05:42 many people are in a great rush to go to Russia 05:46 or Latin America, someone go for mission service. 05:50 It may not be too good in their own town. 05:52 No. 05:54 There's great injustices, great spiritual darkness, 05:57 but they're not willing to recognize it 05:59 because it doesn't touch them, they're willfully ignorant. 06:02 So they just think, you know, "I'll go, help them there." 06:06 They may not want your help there 06:07 but they sure needed 06:10 in not always the nicest part of town 06:13 and the town we live in here. 06:15 I better be careful, 06:17 I don't want to give a bad name to Hagerstown. 06:18 But you know, 06:19 there's huge watches of Hagerstown 06:21 that in my view are beyond the pale 06:25 and could use great help. 06:26 Yeah. Right, right. 06:28 Well, you know, that reminds me of, 06:29 we've done some stories for Message Magazine 06:34 around the idea of police mistreatment, 06:38 and the police abuse. 06:39 And for me... 06:42 I've shared this story with people of church folks. 06:45 And you get two reactions, you know, some people are very, 06:49 "Yes, we need to talk about this 06:50 'cause this has happened to me, 06:52 this has happened to my family." 06:53 But the other reaction is, "These are good people, 06:56 we shouldn't even be talking about it 06:58 because you give them a bad name." 07:00 And I think there has to be a medium 07:03 in which we tell the truth, 07:04 and that is very important right now 07:06 to tell the truth, 07:07 recognize the issue, and confront it, 07:10 and then fix it, fix it as far as you can. 07:12 Well, I'll throw in something that may get me into trouble. 07:14 I don't think so. 07:15 Well, as long as you get you and not me in trouble. 07:16 Go ahead. 07:18 But go back to... 07:19 In another program, 07:21 I mentioned the democratic national convention in 1968, 07:24 the police there behaved in ways 07:26 that we certainly wouldn't accept it now 07:29 in a wholesale manner. 07:30 I mean, when you see the video, it's unreal, 07:32 just wailing away with blood and broken bones 07:36 right, left, and center, 07:37 and abusing hundreds of young people 07:41 who were probably bothering their sense of law and order 07:44 but they weren't any eminent threat to the police, 07:47 but they... 07:48 It's incredible police brutality. 07:50 Where there was policeman today, 07:53 I don't think so. 07:54 They had been given a signal, 07:56 in fact, direct instructions from a leadership, 08:00 "This is what you are to do." 08:02 And the police today 08:05 are generally well meaning people, 08:07 they're professionals, most of them. 08:09 But they will take their cues from what they expect 08:13 that they think the government expects them to do 08:16 and society expects them to do. 08:19 No more no less, generally speaking. 08:21 And if they think this society is comfortable 08:23 with the roughing up our people in the neighborhood, 08:26 the society wishes wasn't there, 08:28 they'll do it. 08:30 Yeah, isn't that sadly the case? 08:32 That is sadly the case. So we can throw a signal. 08:33 If the Christian community make it very plain 08:37 that this is not morally acceptable, 08:39 it will start to fade away. 08:41 I love how you say that. 08:43 A few years ago, I talk to Michelle Alexander, 08:48 the author of the book The New Jim Crow, 08:51 when she explores the idea of mass incarceration. 08:55 And I asked her, I said, you know, 08:56 along your same lines. 08:58 I said, "You know, 08:59 I think part of the reason why the Christian community 09:02 has not weighed in on mass incarceration 09:06 is because there's something in us that says, 09:09 "Well, these people who are in the system 09:11 kind of deserve it, don't they? 09:13 Or these people who are jailed are there 09:15 because they did something that wanted that." 09:19 And then how do we, 09:21 you know, mobilize everybody to come to their defense? 09:25 And she said, "Well, you have to, 09:28 because you know that the system is broken. 09:30 And unless you say something, you cannot correct it." 09:34 Well, how can you correct a massive system like this? 09:37 Well, how did they connect 09:41 the issue during slavery time? 09:43 How did they connect the issue at slavery time? 09:45 If they could get an idea of how they could run away, 09:49 escape, or fight for justice and freedom, 09:52 we have to do the same thing. 09:57 As late as the mid '60s, the Reverend Martin Luther King 10:02 in his advancement of the Civil Rights agenda, 10:05 famously gave a speech 10:06 where he said that the moral arm of the universe 10:09 may be long, 10:11 but it bends toward justice. 10:14 Of course Message Magazine 10:16 has inherited that call to justice 10:19 for a subset of the American population, 10:23 but really all religious liberty endeavors, 10:26 all civil rights endeavors should be arguing for justice. 10:31 And all true religion, 10:33 as the Bible says, is to do justly. 10:37 But of course, the question is what is justice, what is right. 10:41 And unless it has a divine origin, 10:45 it's very subjective and very variable. 10:49 Do right, do justly, 10:51 and walk before the Lord and acknowledge Him. 10:54 That is the root of true freedom. 10:58 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2018-10-29