Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI180406A
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00:27 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:29 This is your program 00:31 featuring up-to-date news, views, and discussion 00:33 on religious liberty events. 00:36 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:39 And my guest on this program is Carmela Monk Crawford, 00:43 Editor of Message Magazine. 00:45 And I've got to be careful, 00:46 I don't mispronounce your Magazine 00:48 just as I used to at Listen Magazine, 00:51 and Listen and Lincoln and Liberty 00:53 can all get soup together. 00:55 Right. 00:56 But thank you for coming again on this program. 00:58 It's an honor to be here. 00:59 In the previous program, we were... 01:02 I was casting about and sucking you in 01:04 from all directions on our topic. 01:06 But you said something 01:07 that related to where we are today 01:10 in weather dislocation 01:12 and natural disasters and so on. 01:15 And by the way, I have an email 01:18 from a well intentioned Adventist 01:21 sent me a few weeks ago that... 01:23 I think it was two days ago. 01:24 According to him, 01:26 a prophetic moment was going to take place 01:27 where the whole West Coast 01:29 basically was going to fall into the ocean and so on. 01:33 People worry about these things, 01:35 natural calamities. 01:39 Our present administration, I think, are in denial, 01:42 like, "There's no such thing as global warming." 01:44 And I think many of the ruling parties say it, 01:47 but most people know as they travel around, 01:50 and as they live through life in the US, 01:52 things are not quite right. 01:54 That's right. 01:55 How does this relate to spiritual vision 01:59 and how might it relate to continued 02:01 or lack of continued civil and religious liberties? 02:03 You got thoughts on this? 02:06 I have some thoughts. 02:08 I do believe that continued civil liberties 02:13 are implicated by what we're seeing here. 02:16 I was reading just recently that the United States, 02:21 the Department of Defense, 02:23 70% or 76% 02:27 of the green house gases created by the United States 02:32 is done by the Department of Defense 02:34 outside of the United States, 02:37 very interesting that our Department of Defense 02:39 is creating this issue 02:42 and outside of the borders of the United States. 02:45 True, what activity, what sort of activity is that? 02:47 Through its maneuvers, through the testing 02:50 wherever it is around the world. 02:52 And it's not as readily regulated 02:56 as if it was onshore. 02:58 What am I trying to say by this? 02:59 I think that, for one thing, 03:02 many people in the Christian community 03:05 do not look at that as, 03:07 you know, an issue that we need to think about. 03:09 You know, of course, the Lord wouldn't let us 03:11 blow up this planet 03:12 or the Lord is not going to allow that to happen. 03:14 Yet, we have a stewardship responsibility 03:17 to make sure that we are taking care of things. 03:19 But the implications for people, 03:23 the famine just like back in the biblical times, 03:26 you have people who don't have access to water, 03:30 or people who don't have access to food. 03:33 You still have those same movements happening now, 03:36 and we just don't call it 03:37 or don't look at it the same way, 03:39 but the migration... 03:40 But the military have figured it out. 03:41 Yes. 03:43 And the droughts and natural calamities 03:46 are part of a security matrix 03:48 that they are more and more looking at. 03:50 And in reality, I mean, let's get back to the Bible. 03:54 Most of the battles were fought over wells 03:56 and access to fields of plenty grain 03:59 which is livelihood, 04:00 so the world hasn't changed much in that regard. 04:02 Basic resources, basic resources. 04:04 Yeah. 04:05 And a lot of what's going on in the Middle East, 04:08 you know, we heard about the Israel 04:13 taking the Golan Heights from Syria. 04:15 But what's at play there? 04:17 It was not just a strategic place 04:18 to fire down on the settlements, 04:21 it was a water source issue. 04:23 And Israel and Syria have huge dispute over water, 04:29 which originates from those men there on the Golan Heights. 04:34 So Syria now is short of the water 04:36 but they were denying it to Israel before. 04:39 Yeah, think about the day zero 04:42 without water in Cape Town, South Africa. 04:45 It was Cape Town. 04:46 And just think about it. 04:48 Then we think about the storms and the implications for people 04:51 such as in Puerto Rico, and then last year storms 04:54 that affected people in Houston and other places 04:58 where it's not just, 05:00 you know, what happens in the climate 05:03 but what happens socially and structurally. 05:06 How do we move people out of harm's way, 05:09 and how do we put them back 05:12 where they can have a prosperous life 05:14 or even just a stable life? 05:17 And what do we do 05:18 when we're tired of supplying aid or FEMA support, 05:23 if FEMA support got to them at all? 05:26 This is a very big issue, 05:28 especially for people who do not have the resources 05:31 to get out of harm's way. 05:32 Well, I don't know 05:34 that this is proven or fully acknowledged 05:36 but I think anybody watching, 05:39 had to wonder where the FEMA was less committed 05:43 to general help or making decisions 05:46 about where they warranted assistance, 05:50 and I've quoted on this program before 05:52 but it really affected me once. 05:55 I was watching news report from the United Nations 06:00 on population issues and starvation and so on. 06:04 And the woman at the time, in charge of this whole area, 06:08 came out and gave a press conference, 06:10 and she said, 06:11 "We have become like God, 06:13 we will decide who will live and who will die." 06:16 So if you choose to help this area but not this, 06:19 you're making a choice. 06:21 Those people are expendable. 06:23 And I think clearly, 06:25 it's just logical with limited resources, 06:28 governments and the world 06:31 is probably going to have to make these choices 06:33 as to what's important. 06:35 And part of the choice, 06:36 I think they've already signaled 06:38 as that certain liberties may be a luxury 06:42 we can't allow in a time of stress. 06:44 Don't you believe though 06:46 that more than a question of resource limit 06:51 is a question of priority setting? 06:54 Well, that's what I was saying. 06:55 That's what you're saying, is it? 06:57 Certain group may not... 06:58 Like in Myanmar, 07:02 they have decided the Rohingya are not on their list. 07:06 They don't want to give them education 07:09 or any social support. 07:12 You know, the Revelation talks about a group 07:16 that can neither buy nor sell 07:19 because they hold out against the global system. 07:22 And if you read, that's superficially well, 07:25 it's just lashing out and persecuting this group. 07:28 But maybe someone objects to the priorities 07:31 that are set in the modern world, 07:34 and they increase their marginalization, 07:36 and they're just put off to the side. 07:39 There's a document that I know, you and I have discussed. 07:43 I don't know how well you read it. 07:45 The pope's document 07:48 on the environment, 07:52 I'm trying to think of the Latin name. 07:55 They all have Latin names 07:56 but it's the environmental document. 07:58 And quite unique for a spiritual leader, 08:02 he's tackling a civil problem 08:04 and addressing it to all people not just religious people. 08:07 And he says there, 08:09 "If we don't solve this problem of the environment, 08:12 we're all going to die." 08:14 And his solution, which I like, from the Bible, 08:18 is that we need to honor the rhythms 08:21 inscribed in nature. 08:23 That was interesting. 08:24 The rhythm in Genesis is a day of rest. 08:26 Yes. 08:27 But then quickly devolves 08:29 into how do you celebrate that day, 08:31 and well, his theology is okay, 08:34 his application is horribly flawed, 08:35 because he recognizes the Seventh-day Sabbath 08:39 but then Sunday is fine enough for him. 08:41 But I'd be very uncomfortable 08:43 if someone says it's the seventh-day Sabbath, 08:45 therefore, globally, we will all obey the Sabbath, 08:48 it would still be antireligious liberty. 08:50 Right, right. 08:51 But we're clearly heading to a point, 08:54 you know, the ancients claim it a pretty easy, 08:56 you know, the storm came in last night, 08:58 the gods are angry with us. 08:59 Right. 09:01 We know that's not functionally quite correct, 09:04 but when the calamities increase, 09:06 and we become spiritual 09:08 hoping that God will show us favor somehow. 09:10 You don't want a group that worship differently 09:12 that seem to be swatting your revival. 09:16 Correct. 09:17 I can see the lay of the land very, very clearly now. 09:20 Yes. 09:22 So we're not just talking about a military issue, 09:24 we're not just talking about a FEMA relief. 09:27 We're talking about the continuation 09:30 of the righter people to think and worship differently. 09:32 I'm positive, it's around the corner. 09:34 Yeah, the connection is there, the connection is there. 09:37 And I think what is, say, 09:39 you know, where I think, I go a different viewpoint 09:42 because when you're talking about 09:44 how there are certain people 09:45 set up and marginalized and left vulnerable, 09:49 I think of the families who live around big business, 09:53 big farms, big chicken plants, and things like that. 09:57 That's a whole another situation. 09:59 Well, I give you, 10:00 people have about forgotten them now 10:01 but one word, Bhopal. 10:03 You remember the Bhopal? Yes, I remember that. 10:04 I mean, in India, forget the factory 10:07 but there was a factory. 10:08 And thousands of people around it were... 10:12 Many died but their very existence 10:15 was threatened by this machine or this factory. 10:20 And in reality, I think... 10:24 You know, the dark satanic mills 10:27 of William Blake in England. 10:29 The whole industrial revolution is premised on that idea 10:32 that some people are going to be sacrificed 10:35 for our progress. 10:36 Right, right. 10:38 And we see that today, like we say, 10:40 these large farms that are creating, 10:45 and they're spraying maneuver around 10:49 and it affects the health of the people who live there, 10:53 they're just expended 10:54 for the purposes of this progress 10:58 of this business in this industry. 11:00 I don't know, and I can't say what the end point is, 11:06 and what it will lead and how it will stack up. 11:09 But we can say as we watch this, 11:11 and I think you made that point in our earlier program, 11:14 that we can say the things are stacking up 11:17 and it does not require your hold or your degree 11:22 and prophecy to be able to see the things are stacking up 11:27 and the vulnerability of so many people right now. 11:30 But it does require little mental attention 11:35 for someone to understand this. 11:36 It should. 11:38 The vast majority of people don't connect the dots on this, 11:40 so they're just sort of responding to events. 11:43 And they're going to be easily led. 11:46 And you know, you mentioned prophecy, 11:48 and that's a sub text to a lot of 11:49 what we say on religious liberty. 11:51 You're not saved by prophecy. 11:53 No. 11:54 No Christian preacher legitimately 11:56 ever made such a claim 11:58 but you can be lost by a wrong view on it 12:00 or not knowing prophecy, 12:02 because it will lead you in a wrong direction. 12:04 So I think people need to be informed 12:07 about the world around them 12:08 and to see how that does logically link 12:11 to prophetic outline, 12:12 and when the false calls for conformity comes, 12:15 they'll resist it. 12:18 Because, yes, our survival as a species, 12:21 I think is very soon to be at the point of open threat. 12:26 Yes. 12:27 But the solution is not to destroy 12:29 spiritual sensibility 12:31 because, you know, 12:32 people have known it through the ages. 12:34 You might live physically 12:36 but if you've destroyed your soul, 12:37 you've gained nothing. 12:39 Right, right. 12:40 And, you know, 12:41 and God has promised something beyond this. 12:43 But we're at the point 12:44 where people are going to be off at that choice. 12:46 You think differently and survive or a few worship 12:50 differently than we say. 12:51 You're a consumer, you're a redundant person. 12:56 And the US has been that route before. 12:58 It's seen whole peoples as not worthy of the vote. 13:04 I mentioned to you this morning before the program 13:07 that I just watched something recently 13:09 on the Chinese experience. 13:11 They were seen as sub-humans, not humans, 13:13 not welcome in this country by law 13:16 from the 1880s right till 1943. 13:19 They were forbidden to come here. 13:21 Yes. 13:22 So you don't have to imagine some dystopian future where, 13:26 even in the westernized democracy 13:28 like the US, we will have these draconian laws, 13:30 we've had them already. 13:32 Yes. 13:33 And sadly, there are plenty of people 13:35 who are still subject to what we would see as unfair 13:39 and systematically unjust structures. 13:44 And so we are seeing those right now. 13:46 And I agree, this is the kind of thing 13:48 that you have to wake up to 13:50 and start putting some stalk into it. 13:53 Yeah, you're right on this. 13:54 And I appreciate your comment, 13:56 you know, what I'm reminded of 13:57 and the Bible says to do justly, 13:59 to seek justice, 14:00 that's a very important part of seeking God. 14:03 We have to be concerned about how other people live 14:07 and how laws and principles 14:13 of human freedom are applied to them. 14:15 We can't think, "Well, it's fine. 14:16 That all exists, and take me, God." 14:18 Right. Take me. 14:20 I'm a little concerned about any church, 14:25 particularly my own church 14:26 getting wholesale involved in social justice 14:29 because that can become an end in itself. 14:31 We can't create heaven on earth, 14:33 but we cannot let injustice stand. 14:36 We need to speak to, 14:38 we need to draw people out from that, 14:39 but pull them on to the Promised Land, 14:41 back to Exodus, we're moving somewhere. 14:43 Right. 14:45 We can never sought this place out. 14:47 And I'm trying to sort of draw on history to make comments 14:50 but I know you can't unravel history, 14:53 it's baggage you take with you. 14:55 We'll be back after a break. Stay with us. 14:57 And we'll continue this discussion. 14:59 Thank you. |
Revised 2018-10-29