Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is your program
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featuring up-to-date
news, views, and discussion
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on religious liberty events.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on this program
is Carmela Monk Crawford,
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Editor of Message Magazine.
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And I've got to be careful,
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I don't
mispronounce your Magazine
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just as I used to
at Listen Magazine,
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and Listen and
Lincoln and Liberty
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can all get soup together.
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Right.
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But thank you for
coming again on this program.
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It's an honor to be here.
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In the previous
program, we were...
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I was casting
about and sucking you in
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from all
directions on our topic.
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But you said something
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that related to
where we are today
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in weather dislocation
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and natural disasters and so on.
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And by the way, I have an email
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from a well
intentioned Adventist
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sent me a few weeks ago that...
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I think it was two days ago.
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According to him,
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a prophetic moment
was going to take place
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where the whole West Coast
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basically was going to
fall into the ocean and so on.
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People worry about these things,
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natural calamities.
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Our present administration,
I think, are in denial,
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like, "There's no such
thing as global warming."
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And I think many of
the ruling parties say it,
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but most people know
as they travel around,
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and as they live
through life in the US,
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things are not quite right.
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That's right.
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How does this
relate to spiritual vision
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and how might it
relate to continued
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or lack of continued
civil and religious liberties?
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You got thoughts on this?
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I have some thoughts.
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I do believe that
continued civil liberties
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are implicated by
what we're seeing here.
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I was reading just
recently that the United States,
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the Department of Defense,
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70% or 76%
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of the green house gases
created by the United States
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is done by the
Department of Defense
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outside of the United States,
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very interesting that
our Department of Defense
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is creating this issue
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and outside of the
borders of the United States.
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True, what activity,
what sort of activity is that?
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Through its
maneuvers, through the testing
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wherever it is around the world.
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And it's not as
readily regulated
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as if it was onshore.
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What am I trying to say by this?
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I think that, for one thing,
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many people in the
Christian community
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do not look at that as,
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you know, an issue
that we need to think about.
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You know, of course,
the Lord wouldn't let us
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blow up this planet
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or the Lord is not
going to allow that to happen.
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Yet, we have a
stewardship responsibility
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to make sure that we
are taking care of things.
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But the implications for people,
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the famine just like
back in the biblical times,
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you have people who
don't have access to water,
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or people who don't
have access to food.
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You still have those
same movements happening now,
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and we just don't call it
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or don't look
at it the same way,
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but the migration...
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But the military
have figured it out.
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Yes.
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And the droughts
and natural calamities
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are part of a security matrix
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that they are more
and more looking at.
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And in reality, I mean,
let's get back to the Bible.
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Most of the battles
were fought over wells
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and access to
fields of plenty grain
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which is livelihood,
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so the world hasn't
changed much in that regard.
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Basic
resources, basic resources.
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Yeah.
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And a lot of what's
going on in the Middle East,
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you know, we
heard about the Israel
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taking the Golan
Heights from Syria.
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But what's at play there?
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It was not just
a strategic place
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to fire down on the settlements,
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it was a water source issue.
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And Israel and Syria
have huge dispute over water,
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which originates from those
men there on the Golan Heights.
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So Syria now is
short of the water
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but they were
denying it to Israel before.
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Yeah, think about the day zero
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without water in
Cape Town, South Africa.
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It was Cape Town.
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And just think about it.
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Then we think about the storms
and the implications for people
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such as in Puerto Rico,
and then last year storms
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that affected people in
Houston and other places
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where it's not just,
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you know, what
happens in the climate
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but what happens
socially and structurally.
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How do we move
people out of harm's way,
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and how do we put them back
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where they can
have a prosperous life
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or even just a stable life?
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And what do we do
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when we're tired of
supplying aid or FEMA support,
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if FEMA support
got to them at all?
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This is a very big issue,
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especially for people
who do not have the resources
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to get out of harm's way.
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Well, I don't know
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that this is proven
or fully acknowledged
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but I think anybody watching,
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had to wonder where
the FEMA was less committed
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to general help
or making decisions
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about where they
warranted assistance,
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and I've quoted on
this program before
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but it really affected me once.
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I was watching news
report from the United Nations
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on population issues
and starvation and so on.
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And the woman at the time,
in charge of this whole area,
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came out and gave
a press conference,
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and she said,
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"We have become like God,
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we will decide who
will live and who will die."
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So if you choose to
help this area but not this,
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you're making a choice.
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Those people are expendable.
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And I think clearly,
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it's just logical
with limited resources,
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governments and the world
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is probably going to
have to make these choices
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as to what's important.
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And part of the choice,
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I think they've already signaled
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as that certain
liberties may be a luxury
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we can't allow
in a time of stress.
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Don't you believe though
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that more than a
question of resource limit
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is a question of
priority setting?
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Well, that's what I was saying.
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That's what
you're saying, is it?
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Certain group may not...
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Like in Myanmar,
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they have decided the
Rohingya are not on their list.
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They don't want to
give them education
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or any social support.
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You know, the
Revelation talks about a group
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that can neither buy nor sell
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because they hold out
against the global system.
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And if you read,
that's superficially well,
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it's just lashing out
and persecuting this group.
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But maybe someone
objects to the priorities
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that are set in
the modern world,
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and they increase
their marginalization,
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and they're just
put off to the side.
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There's a document that I
know, you and I have discussed.
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I don't know how
well you read it.
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The pope's document
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on the environment,
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I'm trying to
think of the Latin name.
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They all have Latin names
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but it's the
environmental document.
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And quite unique
for a spiritual leader,
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he's tackling a civil problem
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and addressing it to all people
not just religious people.
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And he says there,
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"If we don't solve this
problem of the environment,
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we're all going to die."
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And his solution,
which I like, from the Bible,
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is that we need
to honor the rhythms
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inscribed in nature.
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That was interesting.
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The rhythm in
Genesis is a day of rest.
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Yes.
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But then quickly devolves
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into how do you
celebrate that day,
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and well, his theology is okay,
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his application
is horribly flawed,
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because he recognizes
the Seventh-day Sabbath
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but then Sunday is
fine enough for him.
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But I'd be very uncomfortable
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if someone says it's
the seventh-day Sabbath,
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therefore, globally, we
will all obey the Sabbath,
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it would still be
antireligious liberty.
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Right, right.
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But we're clearly
heading to a point,
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you know, the ancients
claim it a pretty easy,
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you know, the
storm came in last night,
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the gods are angry with us.
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Right.
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We know that's not
functionally quite correct,
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but when the
calamities increase,
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and we become spiritual
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hoping that God will
show us favor somehow.
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You don't want a group
that worship differently
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that seem to be
swatting your revival.
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Correct.
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I can see the lay of the
land very, very clearly now.
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Yes.
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So we're not just
talking about a military issue,
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we're not just
talking about a FEMA relief.
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We're talking
about the continuation
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of the righter people to
think and worship differently.
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I'm positive,
it's around the corner.
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Yeah, the connection is
there, the connection is there.
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And I think what is, say,
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you know, where I think,
I go a different viewpoint
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because when
you're talking about
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how there are certain people
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set up and marginalized
and left vulnerable,
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I think of the families
who live around big business,
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big farms, big chicken
plants, and things like that.
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That's a whole
another situation.
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Well, I give you,
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people have about
forgotten them now
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but one word, Bhopal.
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You remember the
Bhopal? Yes, I remember that.
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I mean, in India,
forget the factory
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but there was a factory.
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And thousands of
people around it were...
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Many died but
their very existence
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was threatened by this
machine or this factory.
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And in reality, I think...
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You know, the dark satanic mills
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of William Blake in England.
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The whole industrial revolution
is premised on that idea
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that some people are
going to be sacrificed
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for our progress.
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Right, right.
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And we see that
today, like we say,
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these large farms
that are creating,
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and they're
spraying maneuver around
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and it affects the health
of the people who live there,
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they're just expended
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for the
purposes of this progress
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of this business
in this industry.
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I don't know, and I can't
say what the end point is,
00:11:00.89\00:11:06.13
and what it will lead
and how it will stack up.
00:11:06.16\00:11:08.96
But we can say as we watch this,
00:11:09.00\00:11:11.80
and I think you made that
point in our earlier program,
00:11:11.83\00:11:14.24
that we can say the
things are stacking up
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and it does not require
your hold or your degree
00:11:17.54\00:11:22.38
and prophecy to be able to
see the things are stacking up
00:11:22.41\00:11:27.15
and the vulnerability of
so many people right now.
00:11:27.18\00:11:30.79
But it does require
little mental attention
00:11:30.82\00:11:35.42
for someone to understand this.
00:11:35.46\00:11:36.79
It should.
00:11:36.83\00:11:38.16
The vast majority of people
don't connect the dots on this,
00:11:38.19\00:11:40.26
so they're just sort
of responding to events.
00:11:40.30\00:11:43.77
And they're
going to be easily led.
00:11:43.80\00:11:46.60
And you know, you
mentioned prophecy,
00:11:46.63\00:11:48.20
and that's a
sub text to a lot of
00:11:48.24\00:11:49.57
what we say on
religious liberty.
00:11:49.60\00:11:51.81
You're not saved by prophecy.
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No.
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No Christian
preacher legitimately
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ever made such a claim
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but you can be lost
by a wrong view on it
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or not knowing prophecy,
00:12:00.45\00:12:02.08
because it will lead
you in a wrong direction.
00:12:02.12\00:12:04.92
So I think people
need to be informed
00:12:04.95\00:12:07.36
about the world around them
00:12:07.39\00:12:08.72
and to see how
that does logically link
00:12:08.76\00:12:11.53
to prophetic outline,
00:12:11.56\00:12:12.89
and when the false
calls for conformity comes,
00:12:12.93\00:12:15.93
they'll resist it.
00:12:15.96\00:12:18.03
Because, yes, our
survival as a species,
00:12:18.07\00:12:21.70
I think is very soon to be
at the point of open threat.
00:12:21.74\00:12:26.37
Yes.
00:12:26.41\00:12:27.74
But the solution
is not to destroy
00:12:27.78\00:12:29.84
spiritual sensibility
00:12:29.88\00:12:31.21
because, you know,
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people have known
it through the ages.
00:12:32.71\00:12:34.78
You might live physically
00:12:34.82\00:12:36.28
but if you've
destroyed your soul,
00:12:36.32\00:12:37.65
you've gained nothing.
00:12:37.69\00:12:39.02
Right, right.
00:12:39.05\00:12:40.39
And, you know,
00:12:40.42\00:12:41.76
and God has promised
something beyond this.
00:12:41.79\00:12:43.16
But we're at the point
00:12:43.19\00:12:44.53
where people are going
to be off at that choice.
00:12:44.56\00:12:46.80
You think differently
and survive or a few worship
00:12:46.83\00:12:50.33
differently than we say.
00:12:50.37\00:12:51.70
You're a consumer,
you're a redundant person.
00:12:51.73\00:12:56.30
And the US has
been that route before.
00:12:56.34\00:12:58.91
It's seen whole peoples
as not worthy of the vote.
00:12:58.94\00:13:04.81
I mentioned to you this
morning before the program
00:13:04.85\00:13:07.45
that I just
watched something recently
00:13:07.48\00:13:09.22
on the Chinese experience.
00:13:09.25\00:13:11.12
They were seen as
sub-humans, not humans,
00:13:11.15\00:13:13.52
not welcome in
this country by law
00:13:13.56\00:13:16.46
from the 1880s right till 1943.
00:13:16.49\00:13:19.39
They were
forbidden to come here.
00:13:19.43\00:13:21.03
Yes.
00:13:21.06\00:13:22.40
So you don't have to imagine
some dystopian future where,
00:13:22.43\00:13:26.13
even in the
westernized democracy
00:13:26.17\00:13:28.40
like the US, we will
have these draconian laws,
00:13:28.44\00:13:30.94
we've had them already.
00:13:30.97\00:13:32.31
Yes.
00:13:32.34\00:13:33.68
And sadly, there
are plenty of people
00:13:33.71\00:13:35.04
who are still subject to
what we would see as unfair
00:13:35.08\00:13:39.51
and systematically
unjust structures.
00:13:39.55\00:13:44.15
And so we are
seeing those right now.
00:13:44.19\00:13:46.25
And I agree, this
is the kind of thing
00:13:46.29\00:13:48.72
that you have to wake up to
00:13:48.76\00:13:50.53
and start putting
some stalk into it.
00:13:50.56\00:13:53.29
Yeah, you're right on this.
00:13:53.33\00:13:54.66
And I appreciate your comment,
00:13:54.70\00:13:56.03
you know, what I'm reminded of
00:13:56.06\00:13:57.40
and the Bible says to do justly,
00:13:57.43\00:13:59.40
to seek justice,
00:13:59.43\00:14:00.84
that's a very
important part of seeking God.
00:14:00.87\00:14:03.81
We have to be concerned
about how other people live
00:14:03.84\00:14:07.74
and how laws and principles
00:14:07.78\00:14:13.01
of human freedom
are applied to them.
00:14:13.05\00:14:15.05
We can't think,
"Well, it's fine.
00:14:15.08\00:14:16.42
That all exists,
and take me, God."
00:14:16.45\00:14:18.95
Right. Take me.
00:14:18.99\00:14:20.72
I'm a little
concerned about any church,
00:14:20.76\00:14:25.29
particularly my own church
00:14:25.33\00:14:26.66
getting wholesale
involved in social justice
00:14:26.70\00:14:29.90
because that can
become an end in itself.
00:14:29.93\00:14:31.63
We can't create heaven on earth,
00:14:31.67\00:14:33.67
but we cannot
let injustice stand.
00:14:33.70\00:14:36.67
We need to speak to,
00:14:36.71\00:14:38.04
we need to draw
people out from that,
00:14:38.07\00:14:39.67
but pull them on
to the Promised Land,
00:14:39.71\00:14:41.44
back to Exodus,
we're moving somewhere.
00:14:41.48\00:14:43.65
Right.
00:14:43.68\00:14:45.01
We can never
sought this place out.
00:14:45.05\00:14:47.48
And I'm trying to sort of
draw on history to make comments
00:14:47.52\00:14:50.69
but I know you
can't unravel history,
00:14:50.72\00:14:53.49
it's baggage you take with you.
00:14:53.52\00:14:55.66
We'll be back after
a break. Stay with us.
00:14:55.69\00:14:57.76
And we'll
continue this discussion.
00:14:57.79\00:14:59.13
Thank you.
00:14:59.16\00:15:00.50