Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI180405A
|
00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is your program 00:29 featuring religious liberty news, views, 00:32 and evaluation on things that are happening in the US 00:35 and around the world. 00:37 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine, 00:41 and my guest on this program is Carmela Monk Crawford, 00:45 the editress. 00:48 I feminized it on another program. 00:50 The Editress, that's funny. 00:51 Editress of Message Magazine 00:55 which is... 00:57 Well, it's hard to describe. 00:59 We had a whole program on it recently. 01:00 But it does have a minority emphasis, doesn't it? 01:03 There's no question. That's right. 01:04 It began that way. 01:07 I'm an Australian, and I came to this country as a teenager, 01:10 and studied history, and literature, and so on. 01:13 And I've always been interested in the US. 01:15 And one aspect of it that many people in other countries 01:20 sort of speaks a lot to the beginnings of the US 01:22 of what used to be called 01:24 the Negro Spirituals, beautiful music. 01:28 And yet you only have to listen to one or two of them 01:30 to know that there's a lot of pain hidden there. 01:35 What's your take on the black experience 01:40 as played out through music? 01:42 And I'll give you a cue of where I'm coming from. 01:44 It's very heartwarming. 01:47 In our age, we doesn't play the spirituals much, 01:50 but when they were played, heartwarming, you know, 01:52 that's nice Christian expression, but to me, 01:55 there's a hidden story of repression of religion, 01:59 and an imposition of a religion of the oppressor. 02:04 How did that dynamic work? 02:05 Well, Lincoln... 02:07 How can we redeem it in our age? 02:10 If I had said it like that, 02:12 I don't know if I could get away 02:13 with saying it like that. 02:15 But you are very right 02:17 in that the wealth of the spiritual, 02:20 I think many years or at least early on, 02:23 people were not making 02:25 that astute observation that you are. 02:28 People always thought that the music of the Negroes 02:32 was so happy, and it took us to such a wonderful place, 02:36 and it was so lovely to hear them sing joyously. 02:39 But hidden into the meaning of the Negro Spiritual 02:44 where everything from directions 02:46 about how to escape, 02:48 and how to subvert, what was being done to them 02:52 and done under them. 02:53 But more than that, the theology was correct, 02:57 the theology was correct. 03:00 And it is amazing to be able to look back and to see 03:03 how the Holy Spirit was able to teach people 03:07 who were subjected 03:08 to the most cruel inhumane treatment, 03:12 and under the guise of Christian practice and faith, 03:16 and see the true Jesus, 03:18 and what He had in mind for them. 03:19 One thing, you know, I talk about this sometimes, 03:21 I believe it's beautiful. 03:24 So many of our beautiful songs that we've all coming with, 03:28 in our hymnals. 03:30 They come in that minor key, "I want Jesus to walk with me," 03:34 "Sometimes I feel like a motherless child." 03:38 There's one that's not a Negro Spiritual 03:39 but American spiritual, 03:42 "Sometimes I feel like a Wayfaring Stranger." 03:44 And that beautiful minor key wit 03:47 to someone else or to the casual observer 03:51 seems like such a bluesy or a jazzy feel to it. 03:56 That is a deeply restorative sound. 04:01 You'll notice at the end of most of those songs 04:04 that we have reversed back to that major key, 04:07 but there's something in that beautiful music 04:10 that is handed down. 04:11 I don't know why you asked me this, 04:13 but this is a very big thing for me. 04:15 Something that has been handed down 04:17 from generation to generation, 04:19 and I believe it is spiritual 04:20 because I believe as we got to know 04:24 and as we get to know Jesus, the man of sorrows, 04:27 acquainted with our grieves, 04:28 it is in those times of deep need 04:31 and serious drive in crisis 04:34 where you come to walk with Jesus, 04:36 and know Him, and that is why it is sweet 04:39 and it can resolve on the sweet tone. 04:41 You didn't ask me about that, but... 04:43 There's a very good spiritual lesson from it 04:45 which of course is where we end up. 04:48 And anybody that comes to Christ, no matter how, 04:51 they find great stuff. 04:53 Yes. 04:54 And also, and I need to put a qualifier in. 04:57 A lot of hymns in general, since it root the poetry, 05:02 and a lot of poetry comes from hard anguish, 05:05 and disappointment, and so on. 05:06 Yes. 05:08 There's not a lot of hymns if you really think 05:09 that are super triumphant and sunny optimism 05:13 regardless of whatever. 05:16 There's an element of solemnity and the blessed hope 05:19 of something beyond this vial of tears in old hymns. 05:23 But it really is hardly ever spoken 05:27 about how peoples brought from another country 05:31 with other religious, you know, 05:33 animisms, I know but it's still religion, 05:35 other views of the universe, and here, 05:40 it transmogrified into a Christian expression. 05:44 And it's sort of obvious to me that even today, 05:49 there are elements of other theological view points adrift 05:54 in the American experience that came from Africa. 05:59 But you know, how did 06:01 in such a repressive atmosphere, 06:04 they adopt, many of them, 06:07 the majority perhaps, ultimately, 06:09 a religion that was in its worst 06:12 form connected with the very situation. 06:15 And we don't, in America, 06:17 sort of look south and draw parallels 06:21 to what the Catholic Spanish adventurers down there, 06:26 you know, they forced religion on the people there, 06:29 repressed the native expression, 06:33 and it turned out a little differently. 06:35 But the dynamic is not different. 06:37 So how would you relate that 06:39 on the level of religious self-determination 06:44 of not forcing religion on other people? 06:48 It's a question hardly ever is asked. 06:50 Yeah. 06:51 And I'm having a hard time trying to focus in and zone in 06:57 on just one particular aspect of this. 07:00 I do believe that the experience 07:02 of the African-American in this country 07:05 had a uniquely emasculating, 07:09 dehumanizing nature to it. 07:13 And the beauty, as I said, 07:16 I believe that in that space, 07:20 the Holy Spirit worked in a way to speak to 07:25 and nurture and hold up many people, 07:29 African-American people. 07:30 Last year, I had the opportunity 07:32 of being at the Hampton Ministers' Conference, 07:35 and they had a great seminar. 07:38 And during the seminar, 07:39 they had representatives from the new Smithsonian 07:43 for African-American History and Culture, 07:45 and several other scholars. 07:49 And one of the things that was brought up 07:51 during that seminar was the report. 07:55 You know, for many decades, 07:57 they've reported and recorded information 08:01 from formerly enslaved people, 08:03 recorded whatever they could to piece together 08:05 genealogies and histories and things like this. 08:08 One interesting strain that people would report 08:12 was that they were taught to read, 08:15 and they believe by angels. 08:17 What am I trying to say? 08:18 I'm trying to say... 08:20 A divine element in all of this, yeah. 08:21 The divine element has to transcend 08:24 what is going on here and now. 08:27 And I believe that is our focus. 08:30 When we look at human rights, civil rights, 08:33 religious liberty rights, 08:35 is that it has to transcend the dialogue and the debate 08:39 that is happening on the ground. 08:41 We have to act for what we know we are called to 08:45 rather than what's just here now. 08:46 You're right. 08:47 I think, anyone with a spiritual affinity 08:50 can discern God's Spirit moving through history. 08:54 But, of course, unfortunately, in the fallen world, 08:57 it's not the dominant force there 08:58 or the counter forces. 09:01 But let me throw the question at you in other way. 09:04 Come again. Come again. 09:06 Since we'll stick to the Bible. 09:11 The Exodus, 400 years in slavery. 09:16 And I'm trying to think of the American experience 09:18 wasn't quite that long, was it? 09:20 But 400 years, that's long enough. 09:22 It's almost prehistory for those 400 years later. 09:29 And if you read carefully in the Old Testament, 09:33 you can see that the overlay 09:38 of the religion of Egypt 09:43 was hard to remove, it took many hundreds of years. 09:46 And in fact, in some ways, 09:48 still lingering even in the New Testament. 09:52 So what do you see in the American experience 09:57 that is a forced marriage 10:00 between other religious traditions and Christianity? 10:04 Did it just... 10:06 God's Spirit moved a whole people away 10:09 from something else to discovering Jesus? 10:12 And then, of course, 10:14 it moved beautifully into the civil rights movement, 10:16 Martin Luther King, 10:18 and Baptist leadership in particular, 10:21 they applied those biblical principles. 10:24 But has it gone? 10:28 How can one religious tradition 10:31 totally replace another? 10:34 That's a loaded question and a leading question 10:37 I'm hearing you say. 10:38 And you want to give an answer for this. 10:40 But it's worth thinking about. Yeah. 10:41 And I believe, in subtle ways, it shaped America. 10:46 You tell me what is it that you've seen it shaped. 10:49 No, I don't want to say. You don't want to say. 10:50 You don't want to say. I believe... 10:52 But it's a thought experiment. 10:54 It's a thought experiment. 10:56 I do believe that there would be... 11:00 I guess, I look at it from a different way. 11:03 You know, if you make the parallel to Egypt 11:06 and we make the parallel 11:08 to the African-American experience 11:10 in which, you know, I'm very interested and keen on 11:13 continuing to explore, 11:17 I see the biggest detriment 11:21 or the biggest carryover is a mindset 11:26 and is a dearth of understanding 11:30 of where you are. 11:32 Now some people say that could be very spiritual. 11:35 But I also believe that, you know, 11:37 that has other implications 11:39 that go to both your profession, 11:43 your family life, everything like this. 11:45 I believe that the destruction 11:48 that has happened to people's inside, 11:50 in their mind is a carryover. 11:52 Even now, we talk on just a simple basis 11:56 of trying to elevate our diet and our health. 12:01 There is no reason to eat 12:03 the way it has been passed down to you. 12:06 Now God has given you a ticket out and freedom. 12:09 And so we've been talking, 12:11 I left Brooklyn a couple weeks ago 12:13 where I was in there 12:14 and talking to an African-American couple, 12:17 vegan couple, said, "You know, 12:18 we've got to get away from this sort of thing." 12:21 This is a new phase of the resistance where that, 12:25 "I'm not part of a killing." 12:27 On an Adventist level, you are correct. 12:29 Yes. Yes. 12:30 And Adventism adopted the health reform 12:34 as a direct connection to spirituality 12:36 and to clear thinking, 12:39 and to move back to God's basic ideal. 12:41 But when you're talking US history, as you well know, 12:45 you can see the... 12:49 If you look at diet, 12:53 it's an overlay of the history 12:56 that goes back to antebellum days. 13:00 What people eat today is a product 13:02 of what was going on then. 13:05 Not much longer though. 13:07 That's very... 13:08 That's changing a lot. 13:10 And even back... 13:11 Well, I'll go back to Genesis, not Genesis, Exodus. 13:14 Remember, in the desert, they were saying, 13:16 "We wish we had the leeks and the onions and all those," 13:21 the great food of Egypt. 13:23 Right. The food of slavery. 13:24 The slave diet. Right. 13:27 So yeah, all of life is interconnected, 13:29 what that tells us... 13:31 So it isn't just what church we go to 13:33 or what holy book we read, it's a package. 13:36 And the ancients knew it. 13:38 And we're in a dangerous path, 13:41 I think in our country that we may be moving back 13:44 to a uniform sort of a religious, 13:47 national religious viewpoint. 13:49 There's a logic to it, 13:51 but there's a horrible danger from history. 13:53 I can see we're near our break point. 13:55 So we'll take a short break and be back to continue 13:58 what I think is an interesting discussion, 14:01 reaching back into history of plucking things, 14:04 maybe even at random. 14:05 Yeah. Stay with us. |
Revised 2018-11-12