Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000405A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is your program 00:29 featuring religious liberty, news, views, and evaluation 00:34 on things that are happening in the US and around the world. 00:36 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty magazine, 00:41 and my guest on this program is Carmela Monk Crawford, 00:45 the editress, I feminized it on another program. 00:50 Editress. 00:52 Editress of Message magazine which is... 00:57 Well, it's hard to describe. 00:59 We had a whole program on it recently. 01:00 But it does have a minority emphasis, doesn't it? 01:03 There's no question. That's right. 01:04 It began that way. 01:07 I'm an Australian and I came to this country as a teenager, 01:10 and studied history, and literature, and so on. 01:13 And I've always been interested in the US. 01:15 And one aspect of it that 01:17 for many people in other countries 01:20 sort of speaks a lot to the beginnings of the US, 01:23 what used to be called the Negro Spirituals. 01:26 Beautiful music. 01:28 And yet you only have to listen to one or two of them to know 01:31 that there's a lot of pain hidden in there. 01:35 What's your take on the black experience 01:40 as played out through music? 01:42 And I'll give you a cue where I'm coming from. 01:44 It's very heartwarming, 01:47 in an era which doesn't play the spirituals much, 01:50 but when they were played, 01:51 heartwarming and nice Christian expression. 01:55 But to me, there's a hidden story 01:57 of repression of religion 01:59 and an imposition of a religion of the oppressor. 02:04 How did that dynamic work? Well, Lincoln... 02:06 How can we redeem it in our age? 02:10 If I had said it like that, 02:12 I don't know if I could get away saying it like that. 02:14 But you... 02:16 you are very right in that the wealth of the spiritual, 02:20 I think many years or at least early on, 02:24 people were not making 02:25 that astute observation that you are, 02:28 people always thought that 02:30 the music of the Negroes was so happy 02:34 and it took us to such a wonderful place, 02:36 and it was so lovely to hear them sing joyously. 02:40 But hidden into the meaning of the Negro Spiritual 02:44 were everything from directions about how to escape, 02:48 and how to subvert, 02:50 what was being done to them and done under them. 02:53 But more than that, the theology was correct. 02:57 The theology was correct. 03:00 And it is amazing to be able to look back and to see 03:03 how the Holy Spirit was able to teach people 03:07 who were subjected to the most cruel 03:10 inhumane treatment, 03:12 and under the guise 03:14 of Christian practice and faith, 03:16 and see the true Jesus, 03:18 and what he had in mind for them. 03:20 One thing, you know, I talk about this sometimes, 03:22 I believe it's beautiful. 03:24 So many of our beautiful songs that we've all come with, 03:28 you know, in our hymnals. 03:30 They come in that minor key. 03:32 "I want Jesus to walk with me." 03:34 "Sometimes, I feel like a motherless child." 03:38 There's one that's not a Negro Spiritual 03:39 but American Spiritual. 03:42 "Sometimes, I feel like a Wayfaring Stranger." 03:44 And that beautiful minor key to someone else 03:48 or to the casual observer seems like 03:52 such a bluesy or a jazzy feel to it. 03:56 That is a deeply restorative sound. 04:02 You'll notice at the end of most of those songs 04:04 that we have reversed back to that major key. 04:07 But there's something in that beautiful music 04:10 that is handed down. 04:11 I don't know why you asked me this. 04:13 But this is a very big thing for me. 04:15 Something that has been handed down 04:17 from generation to generation, 04:19 and I believe it is spiritual 04:20 because I believe as we got to know 04:24 and as we get to know Jesus, the Man of Sorrows, 04:27 acquainted with our grieves, 04:28 it is in those times of deep need 04:31 and serious drive of crisis 04:34 where you come to walk with Jesus, and know him, 04:37 and that is why it is sweet 04:39 and it can resolve on a sweet tone. 04:41 You didn't ask me for all that but... 04:42 It's a very good spiritual lesson from it, 04:45 which of course, is where we end up. 04:49 And anybody that comes to Christ, 04:50 no matter how, they find great stuff. 04:53 Yeah. 04:54 And also, and I need to put a qualifier in. 04:57 A lot of hymns in general, 05:00 since it reaped the poetry, 05:02 and a lot of poetry comes from heart anguish 05:05 and disappointment, so on. 05:07 Yes. 05:08 There's not a lot of hymns 05:09 if you really think of it as a super triumphant 05:11 and sunny optimism regardless of whatever. 05:15 There's an element of solemnity and the blessed hope 05:19 of something beyond this vial of tears in all hymns. 05:21 Correct. Correct. 05:23 But it really is hardly ever spoken about 05:27 how people brought from another country 05:31 with other religious, you know, animism, 05:34 it has been still religion, other views of the universe. 05:38 And here, it transmogrified into a Christian expression 05:44 and sort of obvious to me that even today 05:49 there are elements of other theological viewpoints 05:53 adrift in the American experience 05:56 that came from Africa. 06:00 But you know, how did in such a repressive atmosphere, 06:04 they adopt many of them, 06:07 the majority perhaps, ultimately, 06:09 a religion that was in its worst form 06:13 connected with the very situation, 06:16 and we don't, in America, 06:17 sort of look south and draw parallels 06:21 to what the Catholic Spanish adventurers down there. 06:26 You know, they forced religion on the people there, 06:29 repressed the native expression, 06:33 and turned out a little differently. 06:35 But the dynamic is not different. 06:38 So how would you relate that 06:39 on the level of religious self-determination 06:44 of not forcing religion on other people? 06:48 It's a question that hardly ever is asked. 06:50 Yeah. 06:51 And I'm having a hard time trying to focus in and zone in 06:57 on just one particular aspect of this. 07:00 I do believe that the experience 07:02 of the African-American in this country 07:05 had a uniquely emasculating, 07:09 dehumanizing nature to it. 07:13 And the beauty, as I said, 07:16 I believe that in that space, 07:20 the Holy Spirit worked in a way to speak to and nurture 07:26 and hold up many people, African-American people. 07:30 Last year, I had the opportunity 07:32 of being at the Hampton Ministers' Conference. 07:35 And they had a great seminar. 07:38 And during the seminar, 07:39 they had representatives from the new Smithsonian 07:43 for African-American History and Culture, 07:45 and several other scholars. 07:49 And one of the things that was brought up 07:51 during that seminar was the report. 07:55 You know, for many decades, they've reported and recorded 08:00 information from formerly enslaved people, 08:03 recorded whatever they could to piece together genealogies 08:06 and histories, and things like this. 08:08 One interesting strain 08:10 that people would report was that 08:13 they were taught to read, and they believe by angels. 08:17 What am I trying to say? 08:18 I'm trying to say... 08:20 A divine element in all of this... 08:21 The divine element has to transcend 08:24 what is going on here, 08:27 and now, and I believe that is our focus. 08:30 When we look at human rights, 08:32 civil rights, religious liberty rights, 08:35 is that it has to transcend the dialogue and the debate 08:39 that is happening on the ground. 08:41 We have to act 08:43 for what we know we are called to 08:45 rather than what's to save now. 08:46 You're right. 08:47 I think anyone with a spiritual affinity 08:50 can discern God's Spirit moving through history. 08:54 But of course, unfortunately, in a fallen world, 08:57 it's not the dominant force. 08:58 No. 09:00 There are other kinds of forces. 09:02 But let me throw the question at you another way. 09:04 Come again. Come again. 09:07 Since we... 09:08 We'll stick to the Bible. 09:11 The Exodus. 09:13 Four hundred years in slavery. 09:16 And I'm trying to think of the American experience 09:18 that wasn't quite that long, was it? 09:20 But 400 years, that's long enough. 09:22 It's almost prehistory for those 400 years later. 09:28 And if you read carefully in the Old Testament, 09:34 you can see that the overlay 09:38 of the religion of Egypt was hard to remove. 09:44 It took many hundreds of years. 09:46 And in fact, in some ways, still lingering, 09:50 even in the New Testament. 09:52 So what do you see in the American experience 09:58 that is a forced marriage between 10:02 other religious traditions and Christianity? 10:05 Did it just God's Spirit moved whole people away 10:09 from something else to discovering Jesus? 10:13 And then of course, 10:14 it moved beautifully into the civil rights movement, 10:17 Martin Luther King, and Baptist leadership 10:20 in particular, they applied those biblical principles. 10:24 But has it gone? 10:28 How can one religious tradition totally replace another? 10:34 That's a loaded question 10:36 and a leading question I'm hearing you say. 10:38 And you want to give an answer to this. 10:39 But it's worth thinking of it. Yes. 10:41 And I believe, in subtle ways, it shaped America. 10:46 You tell me what is it that you've seen it shaped. 10:49 No, I don't want to say. You don't want to say. 10:50 You don't want to say. 10:52 I believe... But it's a thought experiment. 10:54 It's a thought experiment. 10:57 I do believe that there would be, 11:00 I guess, I look at it from a different way. 11:03 You know, if you make the parallel to Egypt 11:06 and we make the parallel 11:08 to the African-American experience in which, you know, 11:11 I'm very interested and keen on, 11:13 continuing to explore, 11:17 I see the biggest detriment 11:21 or the biggest carryover 11:24 is a mindset and is a dearth 11:29 of understanding of where you are. 11:32 Now some people say that could be very spiritual. 11:35 But I also believe that, 11:37 you know, that has other implications 11:39 that go to both your profession, 11:43 your family life, everything like this. 11:45 I believe that the destruction 11:48 that has happened to people's inside, 11:50 in their mind is a carryover. 11:52 Even now, we talk on just a simple basis of trying 11:57 to elevate our diet and our health. 12:01 There is no reason to eat the way 12:04 it has been passed down to you. 12:06 Now God has given you a ticket out and freedom. 12:09 And so we've been talking, I just... 12:11 I left Brooklyn a couple of weeks ago. 12:13 When I was there, and talking to an African-American couple, 12:17 vegan couple, said, "You know, 12:18 we've got to get away from this sort of thing." 12:22 This is a new phase of the resistance where that, 12:25 "I'm not part of a killing." 12:27 On an Adventist level, you're correct. 12:29 Yes. Yes. 12:30 And Adventism adopted the health reform 12:34 as a direct connection to spirituality, 12:36 and to clear thinking, 12:39 and to move back to God's basic ideal. 12:41 But when you're talking US history, 12:44 as you well know, 12:46 you can see the... 12:49 If you look at diet, 12:53 it's an overlay of the history 12:56 that goes back to antebellum days. 13:00 That what people eat today 13:01 is a product of what was going on then. 13:05 So... Not much longer though. 13:07 That's very... That is changing a lot. 13:10 And even back... 13:11 Well, I'll go back to the Genesis, 13:13 not Genesis, Exodus. 13:14 Remember, in the desert, they were saying, 13:16 "We wish we had the leeks, 13:19 and the onions, and olives." 13:20 The garlic, and all. Yeah. 13:22 The great food of Egypt. Right. 13:24 The food of slavery. The slave diet. 13:25 Right. 13:27 So yeah, all of life is interconnected. 13:31 So it isn't just what church we go to 13:33 or what holy book we read, it's a package. 13:37 And the ancients knew it. 13:38 And we're in a dangerous path 13:42 I think in our country 13:43 that we may be moving back to a uniform 13:46 sort of a religious, national religious viewpoint. 13:48 Yes. 13:50 There's a logic to it, 13:51 but there's a horrible danger from history. 13:53 I can see we're near our break point. 13:55 So we'll take a short break and be back to continue 13:58 what I think is an interesting discussion. 14:01 Reaching back into history of plucking things, 14:04 maybe even at random. 14:05 Yeah. Stay with us. |
Revised 2018-10-29