Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000402A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is your program 00:30 to discuss religious liberty events and principles 00:35 in the United States and around the world. 00:37 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine, 00:41 and my guest on this program is Elijah Mvundura, 00:45 Liberty author, and I'm discovering, 00:48 a very perceptive philosopher of sorts. 00:52 I've never met anybody 00:54 other than my predecessor Clifford Goldstein 00:56 who's as comfortable discussing philosophy, 00:58 particularly in relation to religion 01:00 and biblical truths. 01:02 But let's talk about truth, 01:05 you know, or as Pilate said, "What is truth?" 01:08 Right? Yeah. 01:09 Or as the president said, "That's fake news." 01:12 Yes, it's fake news. 01:13 You know, we're in a context now 01:14 where, you know, we point to President Trump, 01:17 but he's not the first one to say it, 01:18 but it's now hit the mainstream, 01:20 the idea that a lot of the information 01:22 we get is false, not to be relied on. 01:24 You know what, actually, it's very interesting. 01:26 It's nice actually mentioning President Trump 01:28 because, to many liberals, the people in the liberal side, 01:33 Trump is the... 01:36 Personification. 01:37 Yes, of fake news. Yes, that's the irony. 01:39 They believe that he is the liar and all that. 01:42 But actually, the people who studied all this 01:44 is post-modernism, 01:46 the whole thing I've been referring 01:47 to Nietzsche and the like, 01:49 and the whole thing about Nietzsche 01:50 is that you can create your own truth, 01:53 Critical Theory that dominated American universities 01:55 since World War II is the one that said, 01:58 "We can create our own reality." 02:00 And so they are blaming Trump for this thing. 02:03 I would put that on the door of radical liberalism. 02:06 Yeah. 02:07 They literally destroyed the Christian foundation, 02:11 the Christian aspect of American culture, 02:14 and put, literally, 02:16 that's what Critical Theory is all about, 02:17 it's about suspicion. 02:19 Actually, there is one French philosopher 02:21 who calls Freud, Marx, and Nietzsche 02:23 the masters of suspicion, 02:25 they are suspicious of everything. 02:27 And so they have been literally pulling down all absolutes. 02:31 There are no moral absolutes. There is no transcendent truth. 02:35 And they talk about Trump, I'm not defending Trump, 02:38 I'm from Zimbabwe, and I'm from Canada, 02:41 but we need to know 02:42 that this thing has got a philosophical lineage. 02:45 Yeah, I agree with you. 02:47 They created the context in which we are there today. 02:49 Yeah. 02:51 Trump would never have been there 02:53 if some of these foundations of American culture 02:56 had not been undermined by radical individualism. 03:00 And I think this is where I'm coming 03:01 that we need to understand this, 03:03 before feminism. 03:04 I'm not against equal rights for women, 03:08 God created us all equal, but the whole agenda of gender, 03:13 where gender can be deconstructed, 03:17 and it's not enough to... gender equality, 03:20 humanity itself has got to be deconstructed, 03:24 our gender, the markers of gender... 03:26 We've been in a long process. 03:28 And you're correctly identifying, 03:30 I think, the philosophical shifts that took place. 03:34 In my view, short-term, 03:36 what we're seeing is the immediate payoff 03:39 of the computerization of ideas. 03:41 Yes. 03:42 And, you know, at least 20-30 years ago, 03:45 journalism, which was always subject to bias. 03:48 I mean, if you doubt that, 03:49 go and read the story of the American Aurora, 03:52 a newspaper in early American history. 03:56 It was banned and accused of being seditious 03:59 and all the rest because newspapers back then 04:01 would, as some of them do now, would sort of buy into a party 04:04 and twist everything to their own agenda. 04:07 But journalism used to be 04:09 subject to certain checks and balances. 04:11 You would send out investigative reporters, 04:12 the editors, 04:14 as the Washington Post even did this recently as the... 04:19 the Nixon affair, Watergate papers. 04:22 You know, they would then double check, 04:24 they wouldn't just take something 04:25 because the reporter brought it in, 04:27 but with the computer and the online opinions, 04:30 and online news, 04:32 and the cutting budgets for mainline newspapers. 04:35 I know, I go to meetings 04:37 where there's a government handout at the door, 04:39 and I see the reporters taking it, 04:40 and that's what I read in the news the next day. 04:42 They haven't checked anything. 04:44 So this whole instant use and the superficial way news 04:49 is being gathered and disseminated 04:50 is played into, exactly what you're saying, 04:53 a process of cutting loose from truth. 04:55 Yes. 04:57 And the checks and balances have gone 04:59 and relatively suddenly. 05:01 You can't rely on anything. Yes. 05:03 But the climate of opinion that is created, 05:05 even social media... 05:07 It's bigger than the mechanics of the situation, of course. 05:08 Yes, we're operating in a certain climate of opinion 05:11 where we believe 05:12 that the human being is a creator of his own truth. 05:15 And if we are... 05:17 Incidentally, there is a way 05:18 even philosophy has gone off track 05:21 because when you go back to Plato. 05:23 Plato, today, we just read Plato's philosophy, 05:25 but Plato wrote his philosophy in opposition to the Sophists. 05:29 The Sophists, they said, 05:31 "Man is the measure of all things." 05:33 And when Plato spoke of that ideal world, 05:36 Plato was saying, "No, no, no, no, 05:37 there is a standard of good, 05:39 man is not the measure of all things." 05:41 Of course, yes, God is an abstract concept 05:44 but still the principle is the same, 05:46 man is not the measure of all things. 05:48 So what has happened with post-modernism is not new. 05:51 We're almost back at the foundations. 05:54 We must know that Western civilization 05:57 is built on two foundations, 05:59 the Judeo-Christian and the Greco-Roman. 06:02 And both the... 06:04 Indeed they were pagans, but they believed 06:06 that human beings do not create their own reality. 06:09 There are the gods that are above human beings. 06:11 And so... 06:13 Well, until the emperors started calling themselves God. 06:15 Yes, but still he was somebody was who... 06:17 he got his authority from the gods. 06:19 Yeah, yeah. 06:20 So what we're hearing in the modern era 06:22 that is so radical and very, very different 06:24 is that man is the measure of all things. 06:27 And if everyone is creating their own values, 06:30 then allow Trump to create his own values, 06:33 the philosophers, they have said that. 06:35 But they wanted that privilege to themselves. 06:37 So what we have here, 06:38 what they have a problem with Trump 06:40 is that Trump has democratized the production of fake news 06:46 because they're already doing it, 06:48 and because now it has been democratized, 06:50 we're now in a case. 06:51 Well, he has legitimized it. Yes, yes. 06:53 It is now... 06:55 everybody's creating their own facts, 06:56 and that's why we have this moral chaos. 06:58 And so, for me, we need to recover 07:02 the basis of our civilization, and what is that, 07:05 there is a reality that we do not make. 07:07 I think it's so basic. But have we recovered? 07:10 That's why I believe 07:11 that we need a religious reformation. 07:13 And I think that this is the uniqueness 07:14 of the Christian revelation, 07:16 it has changed the way people perceive reality. 07:19 And that's why we have been going back and forth 07:21 to English Reformation. 07:23 The English Civil War 07:24 was the first revolution in the world. 07:26 The same thing with Newton, 07:28 they were operating within atheistic contexts, 07:32 and that divine ground has been taken off and based... 07:36 And that's what Descartes did. 07:37 Descartes moved this from God to the self. 07:40 He says, "I think, therefore I am." 07:42 Yeah. 07:44 Right? Yes. 07:45 And this is basically what we are seeing today. 07:47 It is read out Descartes, 07:48 what Trump thinks is the truth is the truth, 07:52 but that's the trend in modern philosophy. 07:54 But short term 07:56 and apart from the spiritual renewal, 07:58 which I think is central, I mean, within our church, 08:01 I've been saying that religious liberty argues 08:04 as it did at the beginnings of our church 08:06 that we need a broad-based revival. 08:08 No question on that. 08:09 But when we're talking about fake news 08:12 for a moral person of integrity, and perception, 08:15 and even education, 08:17 how do you know what's drawn up? 08:19 Because it's all put out as equal. 08:22 Other than comparing it to your own facts, and figures, 08:24 and knowledge, which you would do anyway, 08:27 and bounce it off that, 08:29 there's very little distinction 08:30 between something totally fabricated. 08:33 During the election, there were entire narratives, 08:35 complete with video, 08:37 of different candidates' activities 08:38 and so on that we found out later 08:41 they were fictional movie productions. 08:44 I think that I don't know whether people buy to this, 08:47 I know that people... 08:48 But truth in the Christian context 08:51 with the Greeks, truth is a proposition. 08:53 Yes. 08:54 Does it align, 08:56 you know, the principle of non-contradiction? 08:57 But in the Bible, truth is not abstract, 08:59 truth is a person. 09:01 That's why you cited Pilate before, "What is true?" 09:04 Yes, "What is truth?" 09:05 And Christ said, "I am the truth, 09:07 the way, and the life." 09:08 The reason why we have got fake news 09:09 is because we have got fake people. 09:11 But he didn't mean truth in the factual sense. 09:15 It was from a Latin... It was veritatas or verity. 09:20 But that's more integrity, 09:23 what has integrity, what is validity? 09:25 Yes, it was... 09:26 I think in the English translation, 09:28 it's sort of, you know, like what is right or wrong, 09:30 whatever, it's not as deep as what is... 09:34 Or in Italian, verismo, what is... 09:36 I think that's the word they use, 09:37 absolute bedrock reality, what is it? 09:40 Yes, then maybe it brings up the thing 09:41 that I was trying raise up here. 09:43 I think it's very philosophical. 09:44 Yes. Truth is in a person. We need to... 09:47 And it's very important to underline this point. 09:50 Jesus said, "I am the truth, the way, and the life." 09:54 Ultimately, the truth is in a person. 09:57 What makes genuine news, or if we want genuine news 10:02 and the truth and not fake news, 10:05 we must first have genuine people. 10:07 Fake people will produce fake news. 10:10 And I think that's where the importance 10:12 of a Christian revival comes. 10:14 Christ reforms us. 10:16 He gives us integrity. And what is integrity? 10:18 Yes. Join with Christ, you have... 10:22 Integrity, yes, and I think that that's, again, 10:25 why it's very, very important 10:27 that we do not seek political solutions 10:30 to the problems that are confronting us. 10:34 In the Book of Ezekiel and in Jeremiah, 10:36 he speaks about whitewashing. 10:38 Says, "You're putting up your whitewashing." 10:40 Jeremiah actually is very strong on that, 10:42 they've healed the wound of my people, lightly, 10:45 as if it was not serious. 10:48 It's like giving a Tylenol to somebody who's got cancer. 10:52 I think the problems in our society 10:54 are very, very deep. 10:56 If we want to be able to get the truth 10:58 in our public discourse, 11:00 it's important that we build truth for people. 11:03 And we can never build truthful people 11:06 without a grounding in God. 11:08 There must be a transcendent source of truth. 11:11 And when I speak of the importance 11:13 of a transcendent source of truth 11:15 or of a divine source of truth, 11:18 on that point, Greek philosophy in the classical sense 11:21 is in total agreement with the Bible 11:24 because Plato's insistence was that 11:26 man is not the measure of all things, 11:28 there is a transcendent source of truth, the God, 11:31 and that all the things that we see down here, 11:33 it's a mirror of that transcendent ground. 11:37 And so we have got to condemn the radical individualism, 11:42 the kind of radical identity 11:44 that we have in the world today. 11:45 We can never have truth 11:48 unless we ground it in a certain source. 11:51 As far as I believe exactly as you say, 11:56 in the immediate sense, 11:58 how could the Christian or any person of integrity 12:02 relate to the multiplicity of misleading "news items"? 12:08 Yes, we did mention 12:09 at the beginning of the Reformation 12:11 that there were many, many Christian sects. 12:13 This debate is not new. 12:15 In the early modern period, there was all competing truth, 12:20 and I can only go back to the revival, 12:22 the more there is a genuine revival of real godliness, 12:26 when people can see the truth walking, 12:29 when they can see the truth embodied in real people, 12:34 that's the only thing that can reform our society 12:36 because it's not just fake news. 12:39 One of the main themes today is... 12:40 It's the fake society. 12:42 Fake society, yes, 12:43 the fraying of the social fabric 12:45 where people are alienated from one another. 12:48 And if we're going to build a community 12:50 where we can live with one another, 12:51 there is only one thing that can do it, 12:53 it's the power of the gospel. 12:55 And the gospel already did announce 12:57 that it breaks barriers between people. 13:00 And to me, I've always found... 13:03 Before I came for this recording, 13:04 I went to my old church. 13:07 Most of the members in that church 13:09 were predominantly white. 13:11 But the way they treated me was like a brother, why? 13:15 It is the power of the gospel. Yeah. 13:18 It is the one that makes friends out of strangers. 13:24 Indeed, even friends out of enemies, and I think... 13:26 Well, if God can reconcile man to... himself, 13:30 that's a huge gap, pretty easy, 13:32 relevantly speaking 13:33 to reconcile other humans to each other. 13:35 Yes. Yes, yes. 13:36 And again, I see that reconciliation 13:38 in the three angels' message 13:39 because the three angels' message 13:41 calls all people to worship the Creator God. 13:44 And I think it speaks of the internal gospel anyway, 13:47 it speaks of the internal gospel. 13:48 And as we preach that internal gospel, 13:51 I believe it's the only thing 13:52 that is going to bring people together, 13:54 we can either do it by ourselves, 13:56 if we try to unite, 13:58 and that's what multiculturalism 13:59 and this gender identity are trying to do. 14:01 Yes, it's a false way of unity. 14:02 But if you try to bring unity by human means, 14:05 what you have is a Babylon. 14:07 Yeah, absolutely. We'll take a break now. 14:10 Stay with us, and we'll be back to finish our discussion 14:13 of fake news with real news. 14:15 We're not spreading fake news here, stay with us. |
Revised 2018-09-24