Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000401B
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00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider,
00:07 before the break with guest Elijah Mvundura. 00:10 We were really getting into the weeds of philosophy 00:15 and what philosophers have to say about reality even. 00:19 Because the game is for high stakes, isn't it? 00:22 Yes, it is. 00:23 I think we've agreed even in between the program, 00:26 this is a game that Satan plays pretty well 00:30 and he's manipulating people's ideas 00:33 through philosophy often. 00:34 Yes, I was trying to say 00:36 that Descartes is a modern philosopher... 00:39 When you speak about modern philosophy, 00:41 it starts with Descartes. 00:43 And I know people may think that this does not concern us 00:45 but the world that we live in, 00:47 the way we think about the modern world, 00:48 the way we look at reality, 00:50 the way we experience ourselves, 00:52 these are the guys who have shaped it. 00:54 The importance of mathematics in our life, 00:57 you know, mathematics, 00:58 people they think that, they speak of science, 01:00 they think of mathematics. 01:01 Everything has become mathematical. 01:03 Even the... 01:04 In our economics, economics about human relations. 01:07 Yeah. 01:08 But the whole field of mathematics and physics... 01:11 But then human beings are not objects, 01:14 they are subjects. 01:15 And so the whole mathematization, 01:17 what I can call mathematization of reality is problematic 01:22 because the more you mathematize reality, 01:25 you look at reality just as something that is object. 01:29 You are really... 01:31 You get to a point 01:32 where you become blind to spiritual realities. 01:35 And for me as an Adventist, 01:36 it's very, very important for people 01:38 to know that the devil is a real being, 01:41 and that God is real, 01:42 and these are spiritual realities. 01:44 And so math... 01:46 When we think that like Descartes, 01:48 Descartes thought 01:50 that mathematics is the key to everything. 01:51 Yeah. 01:53 It then opens you to demonic deception 01:54 because you're not aware of that reality. 01:57 And so I think we... 01:59 Well, certainly, you wouldn't be aware of someone 02:00 tweak the equation on you a little bit. 02:03 Yes, so it is very important for us to protest 02:05 that mathematics and science 02:08 does not exhaust the structure of reality. 02:11 There is something that is beyond science, 02:13 there is something that is beyond material things, 02:16 and the Bible tries to make us aware, 02:19 and I think this is actually 02:21 the importance of the Book of Revelation 02:23 is to make us aware 02:24 that our lives are shaped by spiritual forces 02:27 that are in conflict. 02:29 And... 02:30 That's what Paul said that we war not against... 02:32 Flesh and blood. 02:34 Flesh and blood but against wickedness in high places. 02:37 Yes. 02:38 And Revelation is not a micro story, 02:43 it's the whole universe is stirred with great events 02:46 that are taking place. 02:47 Yes, yes, yes, yes. 02:48 It's a great story, 02:50 shame that people don't read Revelation. 02:51 Yes. They think it's confusing. 02:53 The only level that I think there is a serious, 02:55 not confusion, but a difficulty in Revelation, 02:58 do you read it in a linear fashion 03:00 or a sort of little snapshots 03:02 that may be shuffled a bit time wise. 03:05 Yes. 03:06 But beyond that, I don't think 03:07 it's such an obscure book at all. 03:09 It's a great book. 03:10 It's not, it's not, it's actually... 03:12 It was at the beginning again, 03:13 we're talking about the English revolution, 03:14 it was at the beginning of the modern era. 03:16 This is what had helped the English philosophers 03:20 to envision the future, that the future can be better. 03:24 People they do actually not know the whole idea 03:26 of the idea of progress, that tomorrow can be better. 03:29 Yeah. 03:31 That we look at the future, it is the Book of Revelation 03:33 that turned the Western world from looking at the past... 03:37 to the future. 03:38 The Greeks and everyone else, the golden age is in the what? 03:42 Is in the past. 03:44 The Christian realism is that 03:47 the future is the one that is better 03:49 and that God can create a whole new thing, 03:51 "Behold, I create all things," what? 03:53 "New." Yeah. 03:54 So we cannot... 03:56 You cannot reverse history. 03:58 It's not about nostalgia about the past. 04:02 The Christian vision is forward-looking. 04:04 Yeah. 04:05 And we... 04:06 It's very important for us 04:08 to know that God controls history, 04:09 He's in control of history, and I think 04:11 this is the best message of the Book of Revelation. 04:13 And that's where our certainty is supposed to be built... 04:16 on the God who is in control of historically events. 04:20 Let me really throw a ranch into this, 04:22 not to disrupt your thought but to challenge it, 04:25 you know, the U.S. 04:26 has been stirred lately by a call 04:28 to make America great again. 04:30 Is that the future, 04:32 forward looking comment or is it retrograde? 04:35 I need to step very carefully. 04:38 That's why I think it's... 04:40 To make America great again, 04:44 maybe we should realize 04:46 that the people who made America great 04:49 were forward-looking. 04:50 They were optimistic. 04:51 But you recognize that statement itself 04:53 is contradictory in some ways if you really... 04:54 It does. 04:56 It is contradictory but America has been... 04:57 Like you could say, when did it cease being great 04:59 or are we looking back to recreate greatness 05:01 which is a backward look, not forward. 05:03 Yes, but for me... 05:05 Is it an optimistic statement or is that saying 05:06 that we're not going to make it 05:07 unless we change, the future is not good? 05:10 Yes. 05:11 It's a very... I've thought about it a few times, it's... 05:13 Maybe that's why it worked well because it was meant 05:16 different things to different people. 05:17 Admitted, yes, but for me, I think it's the loss. 05:21 People have always spoken about Reagan. 05:22 I... 05:25 Reagan was a forward, he had this optimism 05:27 but when you actually look at those optimism, 05:29 it's actually grounded in the biblical millennial vision 05:32 that the future can be better. 05:35 And you may criticize his politics 05:37 but his optimism out made when you trace it. 05:40 As a human being, as a public figure, 05:42 Reagan was very sunny, sunny disposition, 05:46 and he made you feel good about things. 05:48 But where did it come from? 05:49 But his policies were arguably not so great. 05:51 Yes, we may agree and disagree but it was grounded, for me, 05:54 I'm really concerned 05:56 with this biblical vision that was... 05:57 That underlie that optimism. 05:59 Yeah. 06:00 And that when we cease to be optimistic about the future 06:03 and we... 06:04 In other words, we're saying that God is not in control. 06:07 God, when God is in control, 06:08 we can always be optimistic about the future. 06:10 Even the Book of Revelation, 06:13 it speaks about the collapse of civilization 06:15 but still there is optimism because God is in control. 06:19 Yeah. 06:21 So no matter how deep the problem is, 06:23 it's God who can make things new. 06:24 So we can always be optimistic even in the deepest problems. 06:29 And if there is any message that I may want to put out 06:32 is that we must always be optimistic 06:34 because God is in control of history. 06:36 It reminded of an interesting conversation 06:37 I had quite a few years ago with, now deceased, 06:41 D. James Kennedy, television evangelist. 06:43 I met in his office and we spoke 06:45 about all these sort of things, 06:46 Adventism, end of the world and so on. 06:48 And I asked him about dispensationalism 06:52 and it's quirky, well, not quirky 06:55 but it's original way of looking 06:58 at the future and so on. 06:59 And he says, "I used to be a dispensationalist." 07:01 I said, "I have no time for anymore." 07:04 He says, "Because it strikes me that under dispensationalism, 07:07 God doesn't clearly win." 07:09 And in the Book of Revelation, God clearly wins, 07:12 it ends on that beautiful endnote. 07:14 He clearly wins, yes. 07:16 Again, coming back to the English Civil War, 07:19 it was because of their reading of the Book of Daniel and... 07:23 That's why they were optimistic. 07:25 The same thing, the great awakening, 07:26 they said great awakening, 07:28 you have put this millennial influence, 07:30 people are reading. 07:31 And I think that the problem today is that 07:33 Christians are no longer reading their Bibles at all. 07:36 No. 07:38 Most... List of all the Book of Revelation 07:40 and when they speak about the culture wars, 07:42 the reason why they have lost the culture wars 07:44 is that the Christians are no longer Christian. 07:47 That reminds me of Kierkegaard actually. 07:50 Soren Kierkegaard, he was a Danish philosopher 07:54 and I like his statement, 07:55 he says that the challenge in the Roman Empire 07:58 during the time of Christ, during the time of Paul 08:01 was to introduce Christ to the world. 08:05 But he says, "In the 19th century, 08:07 the challenge is now to introduce Christ 08:10 to the church." 08:11 Yeah. 08:12 So today, people... 08:14 Yes, we have got these mega churches 08:15 but the question is, is Christ there? 08:19 And I think that's why... 08:21 And he's mentioned a lot but it's probably not a Christ 08:24 that early Christians would much recognize. 08:28 He's a talisman rather than a reality. 08:30 Yes, because in fact 08:31 when you look at contemporary Christianity, 08:35 I think in one of my articles, I actually spoke 08:38 of how the gospel has been deformed to psychotherapy. 08:42 Everything isn't about the self, self-improvement... 08:44 Self-help. 08:46 Yes... 08:47 Counseling type approach. 08:48 Type of sermons, 08:50 how you can succeed in the like, 08:51 the cross has literally disappeared from the gospel. 08:55 And so much that you can actually speak 08:58 that there has been a convergence 08:59 between the church and the world, 09:01 and that's why Christians in order to recover 09:04 that Christian culture, 09:05 they've got to rely on government instruments, 09:07 and government legislation, 09:09 and appointing Supreme Court justices. 09:11 That will never... You can have Christians, 09:14 nine Christians on the Supreme Court, 09:17 I don't believe that it will make any change 09:19 on the morals of society. 09:20 I think that the pathologies 09:22 that are affecting not only America 09:24 but the world over, they are much deeper. 09:26 You're absolutely right, 09:28 and I think the way I would put it 09:30 is there is a great need for spirituality, 09:33 not just religious identity. 09:34 We're great on identity politics now 09:36 and the religious right in the United States 09:38 are filling their votes, 09:39 they've got some political power. 09:41 But it's not going to go anywhere 09:42 without true deeply felt spirituality. 09:45 Yes, it must be grounded in a deep reading of the Bible. 09:50 And I think that what maybe different 09:52 with some of this revivals that they're not grounded 09:55 in the books of Daniel and Revelation. 09:57 Right, present truth. Yes, present truth, yes. 10:01 The great awakening was grounded in prophecy. 10:04 Prophecy gives a whole angle to a revival, 10:10 the expectation of Jesus Christ coming, gives a whole motive, 10:14 the motor to the religious movement, 10:16 and I believe that this is what America needs, 10:20 a true Bible grounded revival. 10:23 As Zechariah says, "It's not by power, 10:26 not by might, but by My Spirit, thou says the Lord." 10:29 That's what we need, that's the only thing 10:32 that is going to revive America. 10:35 Not just America, the world, the Spirit of the Lord. 10:42 Writing to Seventh-day Adventist, 10:43 but I think with a message applied to all of us, 10:46 Ellen White once warned that the Sunday law, 10:49 which she and her fellows saw as a precursor 10:53 to a final religious conflict, 10:55 "The Sunday law," she said, is making its way in secret 11:00 and many of those involved in this 11:02 even don't see where it's tending." 11:05 I believe in this very real war 11:08 between forces of good and evil, 11:10 between liberal and illiberal, 11:11 if you want to put it that way, as we come to a final conflict, 11:16 we need to recognize much is hidden from us. 11:19 But the war is indeed real. 11:23 The philosophers have often enunciated 11:26 the principles behind it. 11:28 But for those of us 11:29 who are more inclined just to read God's Word 11:32 and to try to find the direct spiritual reality, 11:35 we need to know 11:36 that this is a cosmic battle between good and evil 11:39 worked out through every aspect of human endeavor. 11:44 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2018-09-17