Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider,
00:00:05.50\00:00:07.34
before the break with
guest Elijah Mvundura.
00:00:07.37\00:00:10.77
We were really getting
into the weeds of philosophy
00:00:10.81\00:00:15.84
and what philosophers
have to say about reality even.
00:00:15.88\00:00:18.98
Because the game is
for high stakes, isn't it?
00:00:19.01\00:00:21.98
Yes, it is.
00:00:22.02\00:00:23.35
I think we've agreed
even in between the program,
00:00:23.39\00:00:26.35
this is a game that
Satan plays pretty well
00:00:26.39\00:00:30.36
and he's
manipulating people's ideas
00:00:30.39\00:00:33.26
through philosophy often.
00:00:33.29\00:00:34.66
Yes, I was trying to say
00:00:34.70\00:00:36.03
that Descartes is a
modern philosopher...
00:00:36.06\00:00:39.40
When you speak
about modern philosophy,
00:00:39.43\00:00:41.60
it starts with Descartes.
00:00:41.64\00:00:43.30
And I know people may think
that this does not concern us
00:00:43.34\00:00:45.61
but the world that we live in,
00:00:45.64\00:00:46.98
the way we think
about the modern world,
00:00:47.01\00:00:48.94
the way we look at reality,
00:00:48.98\00:00:50.55
the way we experience ourselves,
00:00:50.58\00:00:52.45
these are the guys
who have shaped it.
00:00:52.48\00:00:54.65
The importance of
mathematics in our life,
00:00:54.68\00:00:57.05
you know, mathematics,
00:00:57.09\00:00:58.42
people they think
that, they speak of science,
00:00:58.45\00:00:59.99
they think of mathematics.
00:01:00.02\00:01:01.36
Everything has
become mathematical.
00:01:01.39\00:01:03.16
Even the...
00:01:03.19\00:01:04.53
In our economics,
economics about human relations.
00:01:04.56\00:01:07.40
Yeah.
00:01:07.43\00:01:08.76
But the whole field of
mathematics and physics...
00:01:08.80\00:01:11.60
But then human
beings are not objects,
00:01:11.63\00:01:14.54
they are subjects.
00:01:14.57\00:01:15.90
And so the
whole mathematization,
00:01:15.94\00:01:17.81
what I can call mathematization
of reality is problematic
00:01:17.84\00:01:22.24
because the more
you mathematize reality,
00:01:22.28\00:01:25.31
you look at reality just
as something that is object.
00:01:25.35\00:01:29.05
You are really...
00:01:29.08\00:01:31.32
You get to a point
00:01:31.35\00:01:32.69
where you become blind
to spiritual realities.
00:01:32.72\00:01:35.42
And for me as an Adventist,
00:01:35.46\00:01:36.79
it's very, very
important for people
00:01:36.83\00:01:38.16
to know that the
devil is a real being,
00:01:38.19\00:01:41.33
and that God is real,
00:01:41.36\00:01:42.83
and these are
spiritual realities.
00:01:42.86\00:01:44.73
And so math...
00:01:44.77\00:01:46.10
When we think
that like Descartes,
00:01:46.13\00:01:48.60
Descartes thought
00:01:48.64\00:01:49.97
that mathematics is
the key to everything.
00:01:50.01\00:01:51.87
Yeah.
00:01:51.91\00:01:53.24
It then opens you
to demonic deception
00:01:53.27\00:01:54.61
because you're not
aware of that reality.
00:01:54.64\00:01:57.15
And so I think we...
00:01:57.18\00:01:59.18
Well, certainly, you
wouldn't be aware of someone
00:01:59.21\00:02:00.65
tweak the equation
on you a little bit.
00:02:00.68\00:02:02.98
Yes, so it is very
important for us to protest
00:02:03.02\00:02:05.79
that mathematics and science
00:02:05.82\00:02:08.22
does not exhaust the
structure of reality.
00:02:08.26\00:02:11.89
There is something
that is beyond science,
00:02:11.93\00:02:13.63
there is something that
is beyond material things,
00:02:13.66\00:02:16.20
and the Bible
tries to make us aware,
00:02:16.23\00:02:19.73
and I think this is actually
00:02:19.77\00:02:21.10
the importance of
the Book of Revelation
00:02:21.14\00:02:23.17
is to make us aware
00:02:23.20\00:02:24.54
that our lives are
shaped by spiritual forces
00:02:24.57\00:02:27.84
that are in conflict.
00:02:27.88\00:02:29.58
And...
00:02:29.61\00:02:30.95
That's what Paul said
that we war not against...
00:02:30.98\00:02:32.91
Flesh and blood.
00:02:32.95\00:02:34.28
Flesh and blood but against
wickedness in high places.
00:02:34.32\00:02:37.25
Yes.
00:02:37.29\00:02:38.69
And Revelation is
not a micro story,
00:02:38.72\00:02:43.63
it's the whole universe
is stirred with great events
00:02:43.66\00:02:46.19
that are taking place.
00:02:46.23\00:02:47.56
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
00:02:47.60\00:02:48.93
It's a great story,
00:02:48.96\00:02:50.30
shame that people
don't read Revelation.
00:02:50.33\00:02:51.67
Yes. They think it's confusing.
00:02:51.70\00:02:53.03
The only level that I
think there is a serious,
00:02:53.07\00:02:55.94
not confusion, but a
difficulty in Revelation,
00:02:55.97\00:02:58.61
do you read it
in a linear fashion
00:02:58.64\00:03:00.78
or a sort of little snapshots
00:03:00.81\00:03:02.54
that may be
shuffled a bit time wise.
00:03:02.58\00:03:05.18
Yes.
00:03:05.21\00:03:06.55
But beyond that, I don't think
00:03:06.58\00:03:07.92
it's such an
obscure book at all.
00:03:07.95\00:03:09.28
It's a great book.
00:03:09.32\00:03:10.65
It's not, it's
not, it's actually...
00:03:10.69\00:03:12.02
It was at the beginning again,
00:03:12.05\00:03:13.39
we're talking about
the English revolution,
00:03:13.42\00:03:14.76
it was at the
beginning of the modern era.
00:03:14.79\00:03:16.12
This is what had helped
the English philosophers
00:03:16.16\00:03:20.86
to envision the future,
that the future can be better.
00:03:20.90\00:03:24.03
People they do
actually not know the whole idea
00:03:24.07\00:03:26.80
of the idea of progress,
that tomorrow can be better.
00:03:26.84\00:03:29.94
Yeah.
00:03:29.97\00:03:31.31
That we look at the future,
it is the Book of Revelation
00:03:31.34\00:03:33.51
that turned the Western world
from looking at the past...
00:03:33.54\00:03:37.45
to the future.
00:03:37.48\00:03:38.81
The Greeks and everyone else,
the golden age is in the what?
00:03:38.85\00:03:42.05
Is in the past.
00:03:42.08\00:03:44.75
The Christian realism is that
00:03:44.79\00:03:47.06
the future is the
one that is better
00:03:47.09\00:03:49.09
and that God can
create a whole new thing,
00:03:49.12\00:03:51.23
"Behold, I create
all things," what?
00:03:51.26\00:03:53.43
"New." Yeah.
00:03:53.46\00:03:54.80
So we cannot...
00:03:54.83\00:03:56.20
You cannot reverse history.
00:03:56.23\00:03:58.70
It's not about
nostalgia about the past.
00:03:58.73\00:04:02.07
The Christian
vision is forward-looking.
00:04:02.10\00:04:04.04
Yeah.
00:04:04.07\00:04:05.41
And we...
00:04:05.44\00:04:06.78
It's very important for us
00:04:06.81\00:04:08.14
to know that God
controls history,
00:04:08.18\00:04:09.54
He's in control of
history, and I think
00:04:09.58\00:04:11.18
this is the best message
of the Book of Revelation.
00:04:11.21\00:04:13.55
And that's where our certainty
is supposed to be built...
00:04:13.58\00:04:16.89
on the God who is in
control of historically events.
00:04:16.92\00:04:20.12
Let me really
throw a ranch into this,
00:04:20.16\00:04:22.16
not to disrupt your
thought but to challenge it,
00:04:22.19\00:04:25.19
you know, the U.S.
00:04:25.23\00:04:26.56
has been
stirred lately by a call
00:04:26.59\00:04:28.36
to make America great again.
00:04:28.40\00:04:30.43
Is that the future,
00:04:30.47\00:04:32.63
forward looking
comment or is it retrograde?
00:04:32.67\00:04:35.94
I need to step very carefully.
00:04:35.97\00:04:38.77
That's why I think it's...
00:04:38.81\00:04:40.94
To make America great again,
00:04:40.98\00:04:44.25
maybe we should realize
00:04:44.28\00:04:46.38
that the people
who made America great
00:04:46.41\00:04:49.08
were forward-looking.
00:04:49.12\00:04:50.45
They were optimistic.
00:04:50.49\00:04:51.82
But you recognize
that statement itself
00:04:51.85\00:04:53.19
is contradictory in
some ways if you really...
00:04:53.22\00:04:54.89
It does.
00:04:54.92\00:04:56.26
It is contradictory
but America has been...
00:04:56.29\00:04:57.63
Like you could say,
when did it cease being great
00:04:57.66\00:04:59.49
or are we looking
back to recreate greatness
00:04:59.53\00:05:01.83
which is a
backward look, not forward.
00:05:01.86\00:05:03.63
Yes, but for me...
00:05:03.67\00:05:05.00
Is it an optimistic
statement or is that saying
00:05:05.03\00:05:06.50
that we're not going to make it
00:05:06.53\00:05:07.87
unless we change,
the future is not good?
00:05:07.90\00:05:10.24
Yes.
00:05:10.27\00:05:11.61
It's a very... I've thought
about it a few times, it's...
00:05:11.64\00:05:13.68
Maybe that's why it
worked well because it was meant
00:05:13.71\00:05:16.41
different things
to different people.
00:05:16.44\00:05:17.78
Admitted, yes, but for
me, I think it's the loss.
00:05:17.81\00:05:20.98
People have always
spoken about Reagan.
00:05:21.02\00:05:22.88
I...
00:05:22.92\00:05:25.35
Reagan was a
forward, he had this optimism
00:05:25.39\00:05:27.66
but when you actually
look at those optimism,
00:05:27.69\00:05:29.62
it's actually grounded in
the biblical millennial vision
00:05:29.66\00:05:32.96
that the future can be better.
00:05:32.99\00:05:35.13
And you may
criticize his politics
00:05:35.16\00:05:37.57
but his optimism out
made when you trace it.
00:05:37.60\00:05:40.07
As a human being,
as a public figure,
00:05:40.10\00:05:42.80
Reagan was very
sunny, sunny disposition,
00:05:42.84\00:05:46.27
and he made you
feel good about things.
00:05:46.31\00:05:48.31
But where did it come from?
00:05:48.34\00:05:49.68
But his policies were
arguably not so great.
00:05:49.71\00:05:51.68
Yes, we may agree and disagree
but it was grounded, for me,
00:05:51.71\00:05:54.68
I'm really concerned
00:05:54.72\00:05:56.05
with this
biblical vision that was...
00:05:56.08\00:05:57.85
That underlie that optimism.
00:05:57.89\00:05:59.55
Yeah.
00:05:59.59\00:06:00.92
And that when we cease to
be optimistic about the future
00:06:00.96\00:06:03.19
and we...
00:06:03.22\00:06:04.56
In other words, we're saying
that God is not in control.
00:06:04.59\00:06:07.10
God, when God is in control,
00:06:07.13\00:06:08.53
we can always be
optimistic about the future.
00:06:08.56\00:06:10.80
Even the Book of Revelation,
00:06:10.83\00:06:13.13
it speaks about the
collapse of civilization
00:06:13.17\00:06:15.30
but still there is optimism
because God is in control.
00:06:15.34\00:06:19.74
Yeah.
00:06:19.77\00:06:21.11
So no matter how
deep the problem is,
00:06:21.14\00:06:23.21
it's God who
can make things new.
00:06:23.24\00:06:24.71
So we can always be optimistic
even in the deepest problems.
00:06:24.75\00:06:29.05
And if there is any message
that I may want to put out
00:06:29.08\00:06:32.15
is that we must
always be optimistic
00:06:32.19\00:06:34.16
because God is in
control of history.
00:06:34.19\00:06:36.02
It reminded of an
interesting conversation
00:06:36.06\00:06:37.39
I had quite a few
years ago with, now deceased,
00:06:37.43\00:06:41.43
D. James Kennedy,
television evangelist.
00:06:41.46\00:06:43.83
I met in his office and we spoke
00:06:43.87\00:06:45.20
about all these sort of things,
00:06:45.23\00:06:46.57
Adventism, end of
the world and so on.
00:06:46.60\00:06:48.67
And I asked him
about dispensationalism
00:06:48.70\00:06:52.94
and it's
quirky, well, not quirky
00:06:52.97\00:06:55.84
but it's original way of looking
00:06:55.88\00:06:58.48
at the future and so on.
00:06:58.51\00:06:59.85
And he says, "I used to
be a dispensationalist."
00:06:59.88\00:07:01.88
I said, "I have
no time for anymore."
00:07:01.92\00:07:04.05
He says, "Because it strikes
me that under dispensationalism,
00:07:04.09\00:07:07.26
God doesn't clearly win."
00:07:07.29\00:07:09.86
And in the Book of
Revelation, God clearly wins,
00:07:09.89\00:07:12.63
it ends on that
beautiful endnote.
00:07:12.66\00:07:14.33
He clearly wins, yes.
00:07:14.36\00:07:16.73
Again, coming back to
the English Civil War,
00:07:16.77\00:07:19.83
it was because of their reading
of the Book of Daniel and...
00:07:19.87\00:07:23.57
That's why they were optimistic.
00:07:23.61\00:07:25.31
The same thing,
the great awakening,
00:07:25.34\00:07:26.74
they said great awakening,
00:07:26.78\00:07:28.11
you have put this
millennial influence,
00:07:28.14\00:07:30.01
people are reading.
00:07:30.05\00:07:31.38
And I think that the
problem today is that
00:07:31.41\00:07:33.88
Christians are no longer
reading their Bibles at all.
00:07:33.92\00:07:36.79
No.
00:07:36.82\00:07:38.15
Most... List of all
the Book of Revelation
00:07:38.19\00:07:40.29
and when they speak
about the culture wars,
00:07:40.32\00:07:42.02
the reason why they
have lost the culture wars
00:07:42.06\00:07:44.56
is that the Christians
are no longer Christian.
00:07:44.59\00:07:47.66
That reminds me of
Kierkegaard actually.
00:07:47.70\00:07:50.50
Soren Kierkegaard, he
was a Danish philosopher
00:07:50.53\00:07:54.14
and I like his statement,
00:07:54.17\00:07:55.50
he says that the
challenge in the Roman Empire
00:07:55.54\00:07:58.84
during the time of
Christ, during the time of Paul
00:07:58.87\00:08:01.54
was to introduce
Christ to the world.
00:08:01.58\00:08:05.51
But he says, "In
the 19th century,
00:08:05.55\00:08:07.35
the challenge is
now to introduce Christ
00:08:07.38\00:08:10.09
to the church."
00:08:10.12\00:08:11.45
Yeah.
00:08:11.49\00:08:12.82
So today, people...
00:08:12.85\00:08:14.19
Yes, we have got
these mega churches
00:08:14.22\00:08:15.66
but the question
is, is Christ there?
00:08:15.69\00:08:19.59
And I think that's why...
00:08:19.63\00:08:21.13
And he's mentioned a lot
but it's probably not a Christ
00:08:21.16\00:08:24.57
that early
Christians would much recognize.
00:08:24.60\00:08:28.10
He's a talisman
rather than a reality.
00:08:28.14\00:08:30.51
Yes, because in fact
00:08:30.54\00:08:31.87
when you look at
contemporary Christianity,
00:08:31.91\00:08:35.44
I think in one of my
articles, I actually spoke
00:08:35.48\00:08:38.45
of how the gospel has
been deformed to psychotherapy.
00:08:38.48\00:08:42.02
Everything isn't about
the self, self-improvement...
00:08:42.05\00:08:44.65
Self-help.
00:08:44.69\00:08:46.02
Yes...
00:08:46.05\00:08:47.39
Counseling type approach.
00:08:47.42\00:08:48.82
Type of sermons,
00:08:48.86\00:08:50.19
how you can succeed in the like,
00:08:50.23\00:08:51.56
the cross has literally
disappeared from the gospel.
00:08:51.59\00:08:55.93
And so much that
you can actually speak
00:08:55.96\00:08:58.07
that there has
been a convergence
00:08:58.10\00:08:59.43
between the
church and the world,
00:08:59.47\00:09:01.10
and that's why
Christians in order to recover
00:09:01.14\00:09:03.97
that Christian culture,
00:09:04.01\00:09:05.34
they've got to rely on
government instruments,
00:09:05.37\00:09:07.54
and government legislation,
00:09:07.58\00:09:09.18
and appointing
Supreme Court justices.
00:09:09.21\00:09:11.88
That will never...
You can have Christians,
00:09:11.91\00:09:14.88
nine Christians
on the Supreme Court,
00:09:14.92\00:09:17.35
I don't believe that
it will make any change
00:09:17.39\00:09:19.09
on the morals of society.
00:09:19.12\00:09:20.89
I think that the pathologies
00:09:20.92\00:09:22.32
that are
affecting not only America
00:09:22.36\00:09:24.33
but the world over,
they are much deeper.
00:09:24.36\00:09:26.70
You're absolutely right,
00:09:26.73\00:09:28.06
and I think the
way I would put it
00:09:28.10\00:09:30.27
is there is a great
need for spirituality,
00:09:30.30\00:09:33.03
not just religious identity.
00:09:33.07\00:09:34.60
We're great on
identity politics now
00:09:34.64\00:09:36.81
and the religious
right in the United States
00:09:36.84\00:09:38.37
are filling their votes,
00:09:38.41\00:09:39.74
they've got
some political power.
00:09:39.77\00:09:41.38
But it's not
going to go anywhere
00:09:41.41\00:09:42.74
without true
deeply felt spirituality.
00:09:42.78\00:09:45.78
Yes, it must be grounded in
a deep reading of the Bible.
00:09:45.81\00:09:50.72
And I think that
what maybe different
00:09:50.75\00:09:52.95
with some of this revivals
that they're not grounded
00:09:52.99\00:09:55.92
in the books of
Daniel and Revelation.
00:09:55.96\00:09:57.89
Right, present truth.
Yes, present truth, yes.
00:09:57.93\00:10:01.06
The great awakening
was grounded in prophecy.
00:10:01.10\00:10:04.40
Prophecy gives a
whole angle to a revival,
00:10:04.43\00:10:10.67
the expectation of Jesus Christ
coming, gives a whole motive,
00:10:10.71\00:10:14.84
the motor to the
religious movement,
00:10:14.88\00:10:16.85
and I believe that
this is what America needs,
00:10:16.88\00:10:20.42
a true Bible grounded revival.
00:10:20.45\00:10:23.49
As Zechariah says,
"It's not by power,
00:10:23.52\00:10:26.79
not by might, but by My
Spirit, thou says the Lord."
00:10:26.82\00:10:29.89
That's what we need,
that's the only thing
00:10:29.92\00:10:32.26
that is going to revive America.
00:10:32.29\00:10:35.00
Not just America, the
world, the Spirit of the Lord.
00:10:35.03\00:10:42.00
Writing to
Seventh-day Adventist,
00:10:42.04\00:10:43.61
but I think with a
message applied to all of us,
00:10:43.64\00:10:46.71
Ellen White once
warned that the Sunday law,
00:10:46.74\00:10:49.51
which she and her
fellows saw as a precursor
00:10:49.54\00:10:53.45
to a final religious conflict,
00:10:53.48\00:10:55.58
"The Sunday law," she said,
is making its way in secret
00:10:55.62\00:11:00.29
and many of
those involved in this
00:11:00.32\00:11:02.92
even don't see
where it's tending."
00:11:02.96\00:11:05.63
I believe in this very real war
00:11:05.66\00:11:08.20
between forces of good and evil,
00:11:08.23\00:11:10.50
between liberal and illiberal,
00:11:10.53\00:11:11.90
if you want to put it that way,
as we come to a final conflict,
00:11:11.93\00:11:16.00
we need to recognize
much is hidden from us.
00:11:16.04\00:11:19.74
But the war is indeed real.
00:11:19.77\00:11:23.78
The philosophers
have often enunciated
00:11:23.81\00:11:26.21
the principles behind it.
00:11:26.25\00:11:28.02
But for those of us
00:11:28.05\00:11:29.52
who are more inclined
just to read God's Word
00:11:29.55\00:11:32.35
and to try to find the
direct spiritual reality,
00:11:32.39\00:11:35.42
we need to know
00:11:35.46\00:11:36.79
that this is a cosmic
battle between good and evil
00:11:36.83\00:11:39.49
worked out through every
aspect of human endeavor.
00:11:39.53\00:11:42.86
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:11:44.17\00:11:47.24