Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
bringing you news,
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views, insights, discussion,
and up-to-date information
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on religious liberty in
the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine,
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and my guest on the
program, Elijah Mvundura.
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From Zimbabwe. From Zimbabwe.
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But Canada, at the moment.
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Yes, yes, I'm half Canadian now.
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Yeah, and lived in
the US for some time
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and I think like me,
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when I'm
originally from Australia,
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we become world citizens, right?
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Yes, yes, yes.
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So let's go far afield
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and start our discussion
on this program with...
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In England and link some
views that we might hold today
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with what happened
during the English Civil War
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and the English
Republic that followed.
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Yes, one of the
issues with the Reformation
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that would like me
to come back to is that
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with the Reformation,
before the Reformation,
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Catholic was the institution...
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It was the main
game in town, wasn't it?
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It was the main game in
town and it was the authority,
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you know, if you wanted
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to know about
life and everything,
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it determined everything.
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Now let me interject something
because it's important I think
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as we talk about
not just this program,
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what we've spoken about.
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I believe that
the Reformation...
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While it had some
theological aspects
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and one very important,
the righteousness by faith
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that Luther picked on,
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at root, it was a challenge
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to the wrongly used authority
of the dominant church,
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the Roman Catholic Church.
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But even saying that,
it's worth remembering
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that the Catholic Church
had an incredible ability
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to absorb or to...
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Not even absorb, to
cover disparate views
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before...
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It was a cult.
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Even now, it...
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Some of the orders
within the Catholic Church
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are at odds with
what the others hold.
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As long as they accept
the authority of the pope,
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they will be
countenanced and only really...
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Remember there was
a time that the church
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even moved against the Jesuits?
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Yes. They were
too far out of line.
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But generally speaking,
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if they accept
the central authority,
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it can allow
radical differences.
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So the only
game in town was not,
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even though I
said it facetiously,
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it wasn't always really
true, wasn't it the Franciscans
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that were seen as evil by
the population at one time?
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Yes, yes, the
Dominicans and they're like...
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Yes.
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In fact, you are very
right, there were many orders
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within the Catholic
Church during the Middle Ages.
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Not only orders,
the universities too.
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The invest of Paris and...
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Right, there was some divergence
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but that could
only be countenanced
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if they accepted the
central authority of Rome.
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And the difference
with Luther is he challenged
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not just Rome's authority,
the source of their authority,
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the claim of
authority that they made.
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Yes, even the same
thing with Copernicus.
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The reason why he
ran afoul with the church
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is because
ultimately his physics
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challenged the
authority of the church.
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But to going back that,
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so with the collapse
of the whole Middle Ages,
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the Christian
authority became...
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People became very skeptical,
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they didn't know what to follow,
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how can they guide their lives.
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So that was a crisis,
really a crisis in Europe.
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And so you find that if
you read the discussions
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around that time,
people were trying to say if...
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Because Luther had
challenged all these things,
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this church is
false, then they're saying,
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"Okay, if this
whole thing is false,
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what we base our beliefs on?"
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And remember his challenge
overshot the mark a bit
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because it
eventually came to include
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legitimate civil authority,
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the peasants rebellion
was in throughout Europe.
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Yes, yes, yes
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because it
challenged everything.
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Because once you
destroyed that authority,
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because church and state
were together, were united,
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so you are having the
very social foundations
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were challenged.
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And there is historians,
they speak about the skepticism
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in that, and
actually, modern philosophy,
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modern philosophy
begins with Descartes.
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Descartes whole attempt
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was to try and establish
authority on mathematics,
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that if you study
science and have everything.
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So actually with Descartes,
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you have this whole
trend today where people
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have such a high
respect for mathematics,
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it starts with Descartes.
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Descartes actually
wanted to establish
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a universal science
that would settle all doubts.
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But he begins all that
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before he formulated his theory,
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he's all founded on I
think, therefore I am,
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he believed I
can doubt everything
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but I cannot doubt myself.
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It's kind of esoteric
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but what is very
important in there is that
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the English
philosophers unlike Descartes,
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Descartes wanted to establish
wisdom and methodical science,
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of course, he was
influenced by firmest theology,
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Thomas Aquinas.
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Thomas Aquinas
believed that the human mind
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can be able to reach
the truth, you only...
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You're jumping back
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in time a long way,
doesn't it, with Aquinas?
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Yes, yes.
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Yes, but he was educated
with in firmest theology.
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Yeah.
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So the difference between
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Descartes and the
English philosophers
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is that the English philosophers
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still referred to God
as the ultimate authority.
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In fact...
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They didn't make a
full break with the biblical
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or transcendent truth.
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They didn't.
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In fact, you know,
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I think that we had
that conversation before,
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Newton and John Locke
believed that you can find
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certainty in biblical
prophecy, that Bible prophecy
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approves the
authenticity of the Bible.
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So you now have
actually two competing strands
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in Western thought.
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You have Descartes who is
based in truth on mathematics,
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and then you have Newton
and Locke, this is important,
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I've been repeating this,
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they actually
based their certainty
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on biblical prophecy.
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In fact, I think I...
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We were talking privately...
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Yeah, you're like
me, you start to confuse
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our public discussions
and our private discussions.
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Yes, I'm sorry about
that, I'm sorry about that.
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But Descartes had
actually an encounter.
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Descartes is the
founder of modern philosophy.
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He had an encounter with
some of the English Puritans
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who actually told him,
"If you want to find eternity,
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built it on prophecy,"
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just as Peter said,
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we have the sure weight of what?
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Of prophecy. Prophecy.
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That's why Newton
spent most of his time
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studying biblical prophecy
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and they actually told Descartes
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that the train of
thought that you're beginning
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is going to lead to atheism.
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And incidentally, so
something just come to me,
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Descartes actually,
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before he
started this philosophy,
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he had a dream.
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And I don't know for me...
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You think it was a divine dream?
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No, I don't think
it was a divine dream.
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I don't think it
was a divine dream.
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I don't know the dream, so...
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Yeah, he actually had a
dream, today it's suppressed,
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actually, he had
a dream one night
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and everything
became very clear to me.
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But the type of
dream that he had,
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I don't have time to go on it,
I think it was a demonic dream.
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Actually, I wrote an
article that I tried to submit
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to the Journal of Ideas,
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the demonic origins
of Descartes' philosophy.
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And there is
actually an American, Gilsby,
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who writes actually
nihilism before Nietzsche
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and he traces the whole
problem that we have today,
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a straight line from
Descartes to Nietzsche,
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who finally said
that God is dead.
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Yeah.
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And this is the philosophy
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that is prominent in
American Universities.
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So you can trace that...
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That to be, at
least the way I see it
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to be accurate about he
was saying when God is dead,
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I don't think they
meant that God has now died,
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they mean the idea of God
has died out in man, right?
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Yes, yes, yes...
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We no longer need such a crutch.
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Yes, but in his
book Gay Science,
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Gay Science, of course
is the madman who speaks,
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Nietzsche literally
says that we have killed God
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and we is the philosophers.
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In a way, of course,
God cannot be killed.
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Yeah. But philosophically.
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Yeah, well,
that's what I'm saying,
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philosophically they
meant the idea is dying out
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in human thinking.
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Yes, it's the human thinking.
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Although, it's interesting,
you know, in the recent years,
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they've been articles
in Time and Newsweek about
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what they've described
as almost the God shaped
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either void or thinking in
because of the brain structure.
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It's like, it's sort of
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a fail-safe built
into human beings.
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So it's hard philosophically
to get past it when every...
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yearning of the soul
is for God, isn't it?
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I mean, that's why the
pagans and the animist...
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You know, you
have to find God. Yes.
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But for me as an Adventist,
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one of the things
that really fascinates me
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is that the time when
the Western philosophers
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say that God is dead.
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It's in the 19th century.
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Actually, though
Nietzsche is the one
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who says we have killed God,
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it's Hegel, Marx's
godfather who first says
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that God is dead
in the 19th century,
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at the very time
when the Adventists
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were preaching the
Three Angels' Message.
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And to me, I believe
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that the Three
Angels' Message...
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They just countered the truth.
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Yes, the Three
Angels' Message responds,
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it's a direct response
to some of the ideologies
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in the 19th century
because it points us again
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back to the worship
of the one and true God.
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And when you look
at the philosophies,
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because the Three Angels'
Message is very, very specific,
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"Worship the Creator
of the earth, the sea,
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and the heavens."
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And they treated
nature is one thing.
00:10:01.43\00:10:04.30
So the very thing that
they are trying to put together,
00:10:04.33\00:10:07.34
the Three Angels'
Message is trying to emphasize
00:10:07.37\00:10:09.50
that God is the Creator.
00:10:09.54\00:10:11.51
So the whole
problem that we have today,
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this is a harvest
of the 19th century.
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There's no question, yeah.
00:10:16.48\00:10:17.81
So the Three Angels' Message
is indeed a present truth.
00:10:17.85\00:10:24.25
Even talk about the
issue of identity...
00:10:24.29\00:10:26.02
That's a terms that Ellen White,
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the co-founder of
Adventism constantly uses,
00:10:27.79\00:10:31.49
and I try to resurrect that
all the time, present truth.
00:10:31.53\00:10:34.93
What she meant
was something relevant
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for these times.
00:10:36.40\00:10:37.73
Yes, it's the modern message.
00:10:37.77\00:10:39.10
And for me...
00:10:39.13\00:10:40.47
Or applied to these times.
00:10:40.50\00:10:41.84
Yes, one of the issues
that is the problem today,
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brings us again to
the American situation,
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the issues of
identity, who am I,
00:10:46.68\00:10:48.81
we have now identity politics.
00:10:48.84\00:10:51.68
Every group wants to be
included and multiculturalism
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and all that.
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I find again that
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the Three Angels'
Message addresses that
00:10:58.49\00:11:01.72
because it
speaks for every nation,
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kindred, tongue, and people.
00:11:04.19\00:11:06.06
It recognizes those
identities, it doesn't...
00:11:06.09\00:11:08.83
It affirms the identity.
00:11:08.86\00:11:10.97
But thus we can be
able to affirm our identity
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in the worship
of the one true God.
00:11:14.10\00:11:17.47
It may take us far
00:11:17.51\00:11:18.84
but I believe that
the Three Angels' Message
00:11:18.87\00:11:20.51
is so relevant, so
present, so present.
00:11:20.54\00:11:24.25
We need to put it this
way, you've been talking
00:11:24.28\00:11:27.42
about the history of philosophy
00:11:27.45\00:11:29.02
and how it's worked
out in the modern world,
00:11:29.05\00:11:31.75
you know, that
process hasn't finished
00:11:31.79\00:11:34.52
and I don't know
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if you're aware of a fairly
recent movie called The Matrix.
00:11:36.89\00:11:41.10
Yes.
00:11:41.13\00:11:43.10
At first, when
I saw bits of that
00:11:43.13\00:11:45.57
and then I finally
watched it, I figure what...
00:11:45.60\00:11:47.24
I need to see what
they're talking about.
00:11:47.27\00:11:49.04
I thought well, this is
just a fantastic extrapolation
00:11:49.07\00:11:51.77
of things and
it's a good mind game
00:11:51.81\00:11:53.88
but it's not a
serious proposition.
00:11:53.91\00:11:56.44
But I'm finding that
the scientists are now
00:11:56.48\00:11:58.71
saying the same thing.
00:11:58.75\00:12:00.15
Like there was
an article recently
00:12:00.18\00:12:01.52
in a major national paper,
00:12:01.55\00:12:03.12
it says, "Are we really
just in a giant video game?"
00:12:03.15\00:12:07.72
Yes.
00:12:07.76\00:12:09.12
And the
scientists that deal with,
00:12:09.16\00:12:13.36
like, Hawking and so on
00:12:13.40\00:12:14.73
that really try to
imagine the universe,
00:12:14.76\00:12:17.23
they're questioning
whether there's a physicality
00:12:17.27\00:12:20.17
to what we're living through.
00:12:20.20\00:12:22.97
And no, I don't
believe so, the Bible says,
00:12:23.00\00:12:25.14
"God made heaven and earth."
00:12:25.17\00:12:26.51
He made a reality but
we're drifting again to...
00:12:26.54\00:12:29.68
I think disassociating ourselves
00:12:29.71\00:12:31.41
from God's creation, it's
man sort of free-floating.
00:12:31.45\00:12:35.02
Yes, but...
00:12:35.05\00:12:36.52
And there's a
little substance to it.
00:12:36.55\00:12:38.52
We've been talking privately
00:12:38.55\00:12:39.89
about my
predecessor Clifford Goldstein.
00:12:39.92\00:12:41.96
Yes.
00:12:41.99\00:12:43.32
Like, until
recently, when I moved office,
00:12:43.36\00:12:45.59
you know, he'd
come and we'd discuss
00:12:45.63\00:12:46.96
these philosophical things.
00:12:47.00\00:12:48.33
I remember one of
our biggest discussions
00:12:48.36\00:12:50.37
is that "Are we real?"
00:12:50.40\00:12:51.80
Yes.
00:12:51.83\00:12:53.17
You know, the philosophers,
it's a very interesting thing,
00:12:53.20\00:12:54.80
I can only deduce
that you think like me.
00:12:54.84\00:12:57.34
Yes.
00:12:57.37\00:12:58.71
Because it's all
happening in here.
00:12:58.74\00:13:00.08
Yeah, but people, they think
that philosophy is up there,
00:13:00.11\00:13:02.34
maybe some of a discussion
that we've been having here
00:13:02.38\00:13:04.88
seems so high.
00:13:04.91\00:13:06.25
But the things that people
are digesting in the movies
00:13:06.28\00:13:08.65
that they're actually
getting in the movies,
00:13:08.68\00:13:10.22
in the popular
culture, they first begin...
00:13:10.25\00:13:12.89
These guys are
educated in the universities.
00:13:12.92\00:13:14.42
Absolutely.
00:13:14.46\00:13:15.79
So if we want to have
a Christian worldview,
00:13:15.82\00:13:18.23
we must know where these things
00:13:18.26\00:13:19.79
are coming from.
00:13:19.83\00:13:21.73
And it's really
revival of paganism.
00:13:21.76\00:13:26.03
What we're hearing here
is a revival of paganism,
00:13:26.07\00:13:28.40
and Nietzsche himself.
00:13:28.44\00:13:29.77
We talk about Nietzsche,
00:13:29.80\00:13:31.14
why am I referring to Nietzsche?
00:13:31.17\00:13:32.51
Nietzsche is the
godfather of post-modernism.
00:13:32.54\00:13:35.31
Because God is not there,
00:13:35.34\00:13:36.91
we can create
our own identities,
00:13:36.95\00:13:38.98
we can create our own morals,
00:13:39.01\00:13:40.98
we can be gods,
we can be supermen.
00:13:41.02\00:13:43.05
And that's what
I was about to say,
00:13:43.08\00:13:44.42
in many ways, he was
the godfather of Nazism.
00:13:44.45\00:13:46.76
Yes, he was the
godfather of Nazism,
00:13:46.79\00:13:48.72
but Nazism too is human
beings taking upon themselves
00:13:48.76\00:13:53.46
to try and shape the world.
00:13:53.50\00:13:55.86
And we know that
00:13:55.90\00:13:57.23
if any human beings
try to shape the world,
00:13:57.27\00:14:00.30
we make a mess of it.
00:14:00.34\00:14:01.70
That's true.
00:14:01.74\00:14:03.07
We'd better take a break now.
00:14:03.10\00:14:04.44
So stay with us
on this discussion.
00:14:04.47\00:14:05.91
We'll be back to
continue this philosophy 101,
00:14:05.94\00:14:09.54
religious liberty 101.
00:14:09.58\00:14:11.25
Yes.
00:14:11.28\00:14:12.61