Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000400A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is your program bringing you 00:30 up-to-date news, views, 00:32 information, and analysis on religious liberty events 00:36 and history in the US and around the world. 00:39 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:43 And my guest on this program is Elijah Mvundura. 00:46 Yes. 00:47 A repeat guest and... 00:50 I think, long time you worked for Liberty Magazine. 00:53 How long since 00:54 your first article was in, it's a few years I think. 00:55 It was since 2006. 00:58 Whoa! 01:00 Further back than I thought. 01:01 Time is moving by. 01:03 But I hope there is many more articles to come. 01:05 Here, I'm constantly impressed by your understanding 01:11 of whole range of historic and philosophical issues 01:15 that are back dropped to religious liberty and say, 01:18 let's start with some say 01:19 that's wonderful hobbyhorse of mine. 01:23 An event or a development in English history 01:26 that I think explains an incredible amount 01:29 of present day religious liberty in the United States, 01:32 the English Civil War. 01:34 Yes. 01:36 Or at least, the most recent one, 01:37 they were actually a couple. 01:38 Yes, the English Civil War is important. 01:40 People are not even aware sometime 01:41 that there was a Civil War in England. 01:43 But it was a... In mid 1600s. 01:44 Yes, in the mid 1600s, 01:46 then the 17th century, 1640. 01:49 And it all revolved around the issues of religion whether, 01:54 it could really have a Protestant... 01:58 England could become a Protestant nation 02:00 or could it align themselves with the Catholic powers. 02:03 In fact, the English Revolution 02:04 is the first of revolution in the world. 02:07 Today, we use the word revolution a lot, 02:09 but people are not aware that the first... 02:11 Well, certainly in the modern era. 02:12 Yes. Yes. 02:14 In the modern era, the first modern revolution 02:16 of changing completely society, 02:18 it was the French Revolution, it was the English Revolution. 02:21 Before the French Revolution, 100 years ago. 02:23 Before the French Revolution. 02:24 They actually, also, cut the head of their king. 02:27 For the first time. Yes. 02:28 And they established a republic of some sort under Cromwell. 02:32 And remember, let's really jump back. 02:35 Remember in the Bible, 02:37 King Saul was told to destroy heathen nation 02:40 and to utterly exterminate them 02:42 and he turns up with Agag. 02:44 Yes. 02:46 You know, "How could I kill a fellow king?" 02:48 Remember that? 02:49 That from the earliest days, that was the rule. 02:52 You might bring him in chains. 02:53 But to formally do as they did in England, 02:57 that was unthinkable. 02:58 It was unthinkable. 03:00 That's why Zedekiah who was also taken to Babylon. 03:05 Even Nebuchadnezzar did not cut his head, 03:07 he simply took out his eyes and took him to Babylon, 03:10 but he did not cut his head. 03:13 So cutting of the king's head was... 03:16 Was initially was an incredible thing. 03:17 I mean in battle it happened all the time. 03:19 Yes, there is actually a theory that the king does not die. 03:23 That's why even today people and they say, 03:25 "Long live the Queen. Long live the King." 03:27 People are not aware that it is actually referring 03:30 that the king does not die 03:32 because the death of a king means the death of the nation. 03:35 Right. 03:36 And as well as that what in the English Revolution, 03:38 what they were dealing with was an idea 03:41 that had developed, 03:43 I think, very strongly 03:44 under the whole Christian development 03:46 of the papacy and so on 03:48 is that the king had a divine right 03:50 that he was in essence God's representative, 03:53 of course, behind him sat 03:54 the Vicar of Christ who anointed him. 03:57 But still, the king embodied 03:59 the sovereign will of God for the people. 04:03 So to kill him was to strike against heaven. 04:06 Yes, it was a strike against heaven. 04:08 What is interesting, however, 04:10 is that the people who cut his head, 04:12 they actually used the Bible to justify their actions. 04:16 And again you see a difference between the English Revolution 04:21 and the French Revolution 04:25 because with English Revolution, 04:26 when they cut off the head's king, 04:28 they're trying to establish a godly kingdom. 04:30 You may not agree with what they're doing, 04:32 and I don't think that you're supposed to establish 04:34 the kingdom of God on earth, 04:36 but you'd say that their blueprint 04:38 was from the Bible. 04:39 And I believe that because their blueprint 04:41 was from the Bible, 04:43 in a way the English Revolution was not as bloody 04:46 and it had limited, it was limited in its, 04:50 can I say, in its dreams and its aspirations, 04:53 whereas with the French Revolution, 04:56 it literally wanted to cover the whole world. 04:57 It was unstoppable. 04:59 Those who started it ended up 05:00 being eaten up by its bloodiness. 05:03 De Tocqueville actually compares the French Revolution, 05:07 what the French Revolutionary is with Islam, 05:10 with what Muhammad did, that they actually wanted 05:12 to spread their religion all over the world. 05:14 But anyway, going back to the English Civil War, 05:18 it's actually laid most of the sects 05:22 that were participating in the English Civil War. 05:26 They anticipated most of our modern freedoms. 05:29 Right. 05:30 People are not aware of that today 05:32 and many people, they think, 05:33 in fact, conventional history 05:35 locates multiple freedoms in the French Revolution. 05:39 People like Voltaire and Rousseau, 05:41 and they're not aware that... 05:43 people like the Diggers, the Levellers, the Monarchists. 05:47 These were the groups in England, yeah. 05:48 Yes, these are all the groups participated. 05:50 And one of my favorites, the Fifth Monarchy Men. 05:52 Yes. 05:53 And they read from the Book of Daniel, 05:56 that prophecy of Daniel. 05:58 But what is important for us to know is that these people, 06:01 by reading the Bible, they're actually 06:03 trying to set up a godly kingdom. 06:06 And instead of it 06:10 transforming into a monster, 06:12 they're actually able to build many freedoms 06:18 that are valued in the Anglo-Saxon tradition. 06:20 So it is very important to make a distinction 06:22 between the so-called. 06:24 And I think it is made between the Anglo-Saxon tradition 06:28 and the continental tradition. 06:29 They are different. 06:31 Now another thing that I think is interesting, 06:33 that's just not known today. 06:36 You know, in America, 06:37 we have a republican form of government. 06:39 Yeah. 06:41 And Ellen White writing to early Adventists pointed out, 06:44 I think very correctly that the two distinguishing 06:47 characteristics of the United States 06:49 are Republicanism or were, and Protestantism. 06:53 Yes. And what's Republicanism? 06:55 It's the power vested in the people, 06:57 or the people's power authorize the government. 06:59 And the rule of Oliver Cromwell after the Civil War 07:04 was a republican government, 07:06 very self-consciously republican. 07:09 Yes, it was self-consciously... It was a republic. 07:11 And I'm trying to think... 07:13 Can I interject you a little bit? 07:15 You talked about Ellen White and that true founding. 07:17 Yeah. 07:18 The French philosopher, again, who wrote Democracy in America, 07:20 he makes the same observation... 07:22 Yes, he makes the same observation 07:24 that Ellen White makes. 07:25 That's interesting. 07:26 And that was about the same time. 07:28 Actually, yes. 07:29 That's his all thesis, The Democracy in America 07:31 is the classic on American democracy. 07:33 Yeah. 07:34 And he makes exactly the same observation. 07:35 It's interesting. 07:37 I read a lot of de Tocqueville but I don't remember 07:39 him saying the same thing. 07:41 The whole basis of democracy in America is on that. 07:43 So it's very important to know 07:45 that the insights that Ellen White has, 07:48 they are there also. 07:49 Yeah. 07:51 Well, you know, to me, that's very important. 07:52 They didn't exercise it absolutely correctly 07:55 but they self-consciously set it up 07:58 as a government deriving from the people, 08:01 not from a papal power that has existed before then, 08:05 nor from the power of the sword directly, 08:07 even though, as in the United States, 08:10 the victorious general became the ruler, 08:12 same thing with... 08:13 And in both cases, very interesting, 08:15 Oliver Cromwell and George Washington 08:17 were both offered the crown and turned it down. 08:19 They turned it down. 08:21 And one of the theorists, a political theorist 08:23 who puts it all together is Thomas Hobbes. 08:25 Thomas Hobbes is called the father of modern liberalism 08:28 or modern liberty of them, 08:29 liberal status founded on the contract. 08:32 He actually spoke that it's based 08:34 on the contract of the people. 08:35 People have to... 08:39 That the basis of government is derived from the people 08:41 and it's Thomas Hobbes who wrote about that. 08:43 And what is very interesting about Thomas Hobbes 08:46 is actually two books. 08:48 First, that he speaks about physics and the light. 08:50 But his last books, last two books... 08:52 One that I remember is the Leviathan. 08:54 Yes, that's the one that I'm referring. 08:55 It is several books. 08:57 But the second half of Leviathan 08:59 is actually based on the Christian common wealth. 09:01 It's apocalyptic through and through. 09:03 Oh, yes. I remember that. 09:04 Yes, you know it. 09:06 There is actually a statement there where he actually 09:07 described the Catholic Church 09:09 as the ghost of the Roman Empire 09:11 sitting on the grave thereof. 09:12 And for him, what is so crucial about Hobbes 09:15 that we need to apply to our time. 09:17 Hobbes, in that second part, he was not only writing against 09:21 the pretensions of the Catholic Church 09:23 to establish a theocracy, he was also writing 09:25 against the Puritan sects 09:27 who wanted to establish the kingdom of God on earth. 09:30 And to him, he insists over and over again 09:33 that the kingdom of God is in the future. 09:36 The reason why we have to have a government by the people 09:39 is because God's kingdom is in the future, 09:42 and Hobbes insists in his last book 09:45 on the literal return of Christ, 09:47 in the literal resurrection of the saints, 09:49 and that God is the one 09:50 who is going to establish His kingdom. 09:52 So before the second coming, 09:55 we cannot create a kingdom that solves all problems. 09:58 Right. 09:59 Only God is going to solve their problem. 10:01 That was the Achilles' heel of the commonwealth 10:03 or the rule of Oliver Cromwell that followed the Civil War. 10:09 They sort of believed that they'd establish 10:10 the kingdom of God on earth. 10:12 And that in my view is that that element was exported 10:17 after the restoration to the United States. 10:19 And I think that same thinking informs a lot of what, 10:23 I usually say, the so called Christian right 10:25 or the politically active Christian right. 10:27 They have that, that illusion. 10:29 But they are forgetting also. You are very right. 10:31 The whole idea of the English Civil War, 10:36 it was at the back of the minds 10:37 of the American Founding Fathers 10:38 when they were designing. 10:40 ...before. 10:41 Yes, they read Locke, they read all those guys. 10:44 The way they tried to solve the problem 10:46 that came out from the English Civil War. 10:48 And I'm so surprised with the curious blindness 10:53 to that history that... 10:57 We're fellow travelers of that. 10:58 Since I've started at my job, I've been hammering away 11:02 at the story trying to inform people. 11:04 It's hardly even in the American history books. 11:07 Yes. 11:08 I came from Australia. 11:09 But I came in high school, so I studied history 11:12 and the high school's history books 11:14 don't deal with it. 11:15 Yes. And for me, it has amazed me. 11:17 And people are not aware that 11:18 that distinction is very, very important 11:20 because when you don't mix church and state, 11:23 you'll actually allow the people 11:25 to have a direct relationship with God. 11:27 And that's why religion has flourished in America. 11:30 It has flourished because it's not under men. 11:32 Yeah. 11:34 It is supposed to be driven by God, by spiritual consents. 11:37 And I think that the greatest deformation 11:39 that you can ever have 11:41 is to try to apply political remedies 11:43 to spiritual maladies. 11:44 Absolutely. These are two distinct. 11:46 Spiritual problems must be dealt spiritually. 11:49 Political problems must be dealt politically. 11:52 Yeah. I agree with you, absolutely. 11:54 And the most recent example in the US, 11:57 not too many years ago now is 11:58 when the issue of gay marriage was being noised around. 12:03 And in response, many Christian groups tried to pass 12:07 a marriage amendment to the actual US Constitution. 12:10 And the effort was... I believe... 12:12 Yeah, it's a spiritual problem brought in the country. 12:16 And they wanted to get this super law 12:18 in that sort of lock the door before people's inclinations 12:21 would lead them to do something wrong. 12:22 Yes. 12:24 But then, I think, that's why it is very, very important 12:25 to go back to the English Civil War 12:27 because these things are trying to use religion 12:30 as it were to control people's morals and the like. 12:34 It has been tried before and it always fails. 12:37 It always fails because this is God's work. 12:40 And, I think, we have important lessons. 12:42 That's why it's important for us 12:43 to go back to that history 12:44 and realize that it has been tried. 12:46 Not only by some of the people in the English Civil War, 12:49 that was the whole basis of medieval civilization. 12:52 The Catholic Church tried to control people's morals. 12:56 But we know that it'd turned out very corrupt. 13:00 The papacy itself was stinking with corruption. 13:03 Yeah. Why? 13:04 Because when people think that they're in control of God, 13:08 they become gods. 13:10 Maybe this is a good time to take a break. 13:11 It's a little bit earlier than the normal 13:13 but we'll take a break. 13:14 When we're back, and I want to discuss 13:16 more about the implications of the English Civil War. 13:19 Stay with us. |
Revised 2018-09-10