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Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000399A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is your religious liberty program 00:31 bringing up-to-date news, views, and analyses 00:34 of religious liberty events in the US and around the world. 00:38 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine, 00:41 and my guest on this program is author Elijah Mvundura. 00:45 Yes. Welcome back to this program. 00:47 This is not your first time. 00:50 I know you've read Liberty magazine 00:52 for many, many years even when you were a young man. 00:54 Yes. 00:56 Not too long ago, on the back cover of Liberty, 00:59 we had one of our nice post presentations 01:02 with a power quote, 01:04 and I had the artist draw a picture of John Locke 01:07 up in the sky, like the sun, like the Sun King if you like, 01:10 with the rays of sun 01:12 shining down on the American Republic. 01:14 What do you think of that? 01:15 Is that... 01:17 I mean, figuratively, that was a picture, 01:18 but is that figuratively wrong? 01:20 It does capture the origins of America. 01:23 I mean, America is... 01:25 Anybody who reads American history, 01:27 even in high school, 01:29 they were based on the ideas of John Locke. 01:31 But a very few people remember that nowadays, don't they? 01:33 Yes. 01:34 It's very important for people to know that 01:36 when they were drafting the constitutions, 01:37 when they were debating the Federalist Papers 01:40 and the like, their ideas were informed by John Locke. 01:44 Now who was he? 01:46 John Locke was an English philosopher 01:47 who lived in the 17th century. 01:51 And he was actually a friend of John Newton. 01:54 The Isaac Newton, I'm sorry. 01:56 Yes. 01:57 That was John Newton. 01:59 I mean, the... 02:00 Isaac Newton was the him. 02:02 Yeah, Isaac Newton was the him. 02:03 I mean, the scientist who discovered, you know... 02:06 Well, he described gravity. 02:08 He described gravity. They were actually friends. 02:11 And why it is important to understand 02:13 people like John Locke and the like is that 02:15 those people when they were designing their theories, 02:18 for example, the principle of religious liberty 02:21 is taken from the Locke's book, Toleration. 02:29 But those ideas... 02:30 When you actually read the book itself, 02:33 he bases the principle of toleration on the Bible. 02:38 He actually used the Bible 02:40 to build the principle of religious toleration, 02:43 of religiously liberty, 02:45 and people are not aware of that. 02:46 Today, we speak about liberty, 02:48 but we cannot understand liberty 02:50 unless we understand that it is taken from John Locke, 02:52 and from John Locke, 02:53 he based it on Scriptural foundation 02:56 that you cannot coerce someone. 02:58 Christ did not force anyone. He did not use the sword. 03:02 So it's important for us to go to those 03:03 because liberalism today, or liberty, 03:06 has been reduced to license. 03:08 Yeah. You're right. 03:10 But that was not his initial... 03:11 To underscore what you say, 03:12 both Locke and Newton were deeply spiritual 03:15 and both of them, as I remember, 03:17 indulge themselves in prophetic analysis 03:20 at different times. 03:22 And Newton, when he developed the law of gravity, 03:25 he was really trying to explain God's ways. 03:28 He believed that it was God's power 03:30 exercised momentarily. 03:32 He was a bit disappointed to find 03:33 what appeared to be a self-perpetuating law. 03:38 Yes. 03:39 Actually, people need to know that Newton spend more time 03:43 studying the books of Daniel and Revelation 03:45 than actually working on his scientific studies. 03:49 And there is the link, 03:50 you cannot actually separate his theology from his science 03:55 because just as God had dominion over nature, 03:59 He had also dominion over human history. 04:02 So these were interlinked in Newton's studies. 04:06 And another thing that is very important 04:08 when you look at Newton, 04:10 because of the Aristotle, 04:12 Aristotelian complex that we're talking about, 04:15 the Greeks had all, 04:17 everything that they needed to have modern science, 04:19 but they cannot conceive the idea of change, 04:22 qualitative change 04:23 because tradition weighed so heavily in the Middle Ages. 04:28 The only way 04:29 that the early moderns could conceive change, 04:32 that you can actually change and build a better future, 04:35 it was through their reading of Daniel and Revelation. 04:38 Francis Bacon who is actually called 04:41 the father of the modern scientific method, 04:44 the jacket cover, on his jacket cover 04:45 is Daniel 12, knowledge shall what? 04:48 Shall increase. 04:50 Many shall run to and fro and knowledge shall increase. 04:52 I agree with your point. 04:53 Let me throw something into that. 04:54 You probably thought of that but very few people do. 04:57 Yeah, you got Newton, Locke, and... 05:01 Francis Bacon and Robert Boyle. 05:04 Robert Boyle is father of modern chemistry. 05:07 The English philosophers basically were very 05:10 deeply grounded, personally in theology, 05:14 but their whole worldview was derivative 05:17 from Christianity is no question. 05:21 What about the French philosophers? 05:24 They were not just secular, 05:26 they were antagonistic to religion. 05:28 I think that's another branch, and people imagine 05:31 that to this day that the US is based on the principles 05:35 that ended up with the French Revolution. 05:37 And I say no. And I think you would agree. 05:41 It's this English line which is far more religious 05:44 and basic to our 05:47 Judeo-Christian traditions, 05:50 where the French Revolution is a blind alley. 05:53 If it's connected to anything, 05:54 it's Marxism and some of these other things. 05:56 Yes, I would... 05:57 That point is very important 05:59 if you want to understand our current crisis. 06:02 In fact, people that use this word enlightenment 06:06 and they use it as one term. 06:07 But there was not one enlightenment, 06:10 there were several. 06:11 There was the moderate enlightenment 06:13 of Newton and Locke. 06:16 And they are actually the guys who inspired French, 06:19 the French philosophers, and why did the one... 06:23 As you rightly say, 06:24 the French enlightenment was radical, 06:26 anti-religious, and anti-Christian. 06:28 Voltaire, the anti-Christian, 06:30 but why were they anti-Christian? 06:31 Steeply cynical. 06:32 Yes, but why were they that? People never asked themselves. 06:35 It was because of the dominance of the Catholic Church 06:37 in France. 06:39 Which was the undercurrent of the French revolution. 06:41 That was an overreaction 06:44 to the abuses of the church there. 06:46 Yes, because in England, 06:48 because of the Glorious Revolution, 06:49 I think you're aware of it, 06:51 the Glorious Revolution in 1688, 06:53 with that, they enshrined the rule of law, 06:56 the supremacy of parliament in accordance with the king. 06:59 And because of that, 07:01 you have all these religiously liberty. 07:03 If I can go back a little, 07:05 because of the English Civil War... 07:07 Now you're getting out to buy my hobby horse. 07:08 Yes, it's very, very important for people to know that 07:12 because there were many protests and sects in England, 07:16 that's why they ended up having religious liberty anyway. 07:18 That's how... 07:20 That was the context that made Locke 07:22 to be able to separate religion and politics 07:24 because there were just many churches. 07:26 But in the French side, 07:28 it was hard for them to conceive religious liberty 07:30 because there was only one church, 07:32 which was the Catholic Church. 07:35 And so for them, when they were attacking... 07:36 Which had not, in the far distant future, 07:39 acted murderously against Protestant opposition 07:42 and expelled them. 07:44 Yes, so these are two different things. 07:45 And I think there is one French thinker, a famous... 07:48 I always have a problem pronouncing his name, 07:51 Alexis Tocqueville... 07:53 Alexis de Tocqueville, that's how I say it. 07:55 Yes, he actually cited the reason 07:58 why people are anti-religious in France. 08:00 It's not because they had Christianity 08:02 but because they're attacking 08:04 the church's involvement in politics. 08:07 This is what made the French enlightenment radical. 08:10 And this is why the French Revolution was also radical. 08:14 They were not only attempting 08:15 to change the political institutions, 08:17 they were also trying to change the religious institution. 08:21 But it was at a very theoretical level. 08:24 And so the... 08:25 In America, even more than Britain, 08:27 Britain was not really able 08:28 to completely separate religion and politics 08:31 because the Anglican Church was the established church. 08:34 But in America... 08:36 It is. 08:37 Yes, it's still the established church, 08:39 but in America, it was different 08:40 as we know, many, many different sects, 08:42 Protestant sects, the Presbyterians, the Quakers, 08:45 the Methodists, they came to America. 08:47 And because of that reality, 08:49 this is why ultimately they de-established the church. 08:53 And now... 08:55 Everybody feared everybody else. 08:56 Feared everybody else. Yes. 08:58 You know, the idea of American history is that 09:00 there was this pure idea from the beginning 09:03 to keep religion out, I don't think so. 09:06 Even some of the main figures in the Revolutionary Party, 09:10 and I'm trying to think of a guy, 09:12 "Give me liberty or give me death." 09:14 Patrick Henry! Patrick Henry, yes. 09:15 And he wanted church and state joined together like this, 09:18 but it couldn't stand 09:20 because there were so many factions who each feared 09:22 that if the other got some political power 09:25 that they would persecute it. 09:26 But James Madison, the father of American Constitution, 09:28 must also remember that he actually observed 09:31 the radicalism that religion was bringing in. 09:34 And actually, he... 09:36 When you actually read most of his writings, 09:38 you can actually see 09:39 that's what influenced him ultimately to say that, 09:42 "If we're going to have peace 09:43 and maintain the purity of the gospel, 09:45 we need to separate these things." 09:47 And a big part 09:49 of his developing personal position 09:51 was he had seen Baptist preachers imprisoned 09:54 for illegal preaching. 09:55 He knew in pre-revolutionary America 09:59 how bad the thing religious intolerance was. 10:01 Yes. 10:02 And I think it's important to emphasize that 10:04 because unlike the French, 10:06 it was all at a philosophical level 10:08 without actually a practical application. 10:11 In the case of the American founding fathers, 10:13 they were actually reacting to concrete historical events. 10:18 And hence, they were not dreamers as it were. 10:20 They were not trying to build utopias. 10:22 They actually analyzed human nature. 10:24 And I think it's very, very important. 10:25 Many people today, they speak of the separation of powers. 10:29 But what actually informed the separation of powers 10:32 was their fear of ambition and passions. 10:35 They actually knew 10:37 that human beings are sinful by nature, 10:39 and they were informed by the theological anthropology 10:43 of Martin Luther and Calvin. 10:45 Within the Protestant tradition, 10:47 the idea is human beings are sinful. 10:50 Where did they get that? 10:51 They get that from the story of the fall. 10:54 And it is from that base... 10:55 And most particularly, they got it from Calvin. 10:57 Yes, they got it from Calvin. 10:58 So basically, when they're... 11:00 You and I have been talking about that. 11:01 The thread that most informs American 11:04 political and religious development is Calvinism, 11:06 not Lutheranism. 11:08 Yes, it's not... 11:09 Yes, it is from John Calvin. Yes. 11:11 But the whole idea 11:12 that a human being is sinful is very important actually 11:16 to the founding of the American Constitution. 11:18 So this whole separation is to prevent 11:20 this convergence of interest 11:22 of creating an all powerful state 11:25 that actually snuffs out human liberty. 11:28 So it's important for us to know that 11:30 because what is happened, 11:32 I think, in America, is that 11:34 while the American Founding Fathers 11:38 were influenced by the moderate enlightenment 11:40 of Newton and Locke, 11:42 that was grounded in religious 11:44 and Calvinist motives and beliefs. 11:48 The American intelligentsia academics, 11:51 since the World War II have actually been influenced 11:55 by the French thinkers and the German thinkers. 12:00 And so the anti-religiosity, 12:05 the anti-Christian stance of the American academics 12:10 does not represent the American... 12:14 The founding... 12:16 So there's been a shift. 12:17 There has been a shift... 12:18 Part of the shift been in a private discussion, 12:20 you are quoting German theologians, 12:25 hasn't that been an additional shift 12:28 to turn religious thought where early American religious 12:32 thought wasn't overly influenced 12:34 by German theological development? 12:35 It was not. Yes. 12:37 Not from the point of Luther until, 12:38 I think, post World War II. 12:40 Yes, maybe to do that, 12:41 maybe we need to remind ourselves 12:43 of the great awakening in the 19th century 12:46 because in the 19th century, America had a great awakening. 12:50 Not only in America, Britain too. 12:52 Wesley's revival. Of course. 12:54 At the time, when they were experiencing 12:55 this religious revival, 12:58 that was the very same time in Germany 13:00 where you had all those things about Hegel and Marx, 13:03 all these theologies. 13:04 So you can almost put them side by side. 13:06 Well, and of course, maybe let me go back 13:08 and gave a context a little bit. 13:10 The context is the French Revolution. 13:12 The French Revolution people, 13:13 they expected it to bring liberty, 13:15 but it ended up in terror. 13:17 Well, you know, famously, 13:19 and I like music as well as history, 13:21 you know, Beethoven was writing a symphony to honor Napoleon 13:25 who was the hero of the... 13:26 Yes. Yes. 13:28 And he saw, eventually, the whole world did, 13:30 eventually, by the Battle of Waterloo, 13:32 he saw that this was subverting these somewhat, 13:37 you know, idealistic aspirations 13:39 of the French Revolution. 13:41 And so he changed it to the heroic symphony 13:43 and screwed up his dedication to Napoleon. 13:46 Yes, but it's important for us to go back there 13:49 because at the very time 13:50 when America was having a religious revival, 13:53 you're having a revival of secular religions 13:56 on this other side. 13:57 And those secular religions are the ones 13:59 that started influencing America 14:03 since the1960s. 14:04 The radical liberalism, 14:06 the radical individualism that we experienced... 14:08 True. There's a direct tract on that. 14:10 Yes. We'll take a break now. 14:12 Stay with us and get your thinking caps on. 14:15 Here we philosophizing and history recounting 14:20 and theology, but we need to be aware of this as we unravel 14:24 today's very complicated Church-State issues. |
Revised 2018-08-29