Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000398A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is a program that brings you news, 00:30 views, up-to-date information, 00:32 and the analysis on religious liberty events 00:35 in the US and around the world. 00:38 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty magazine, 00:41 and my guest on this program is Elijah Mvundura. 00:45 You got the pronunciation right. 00:47 Yeah. Names are very important. 00:50 And as an editor, I know, you get them wrong 00:52 and you're on the wrong side of things from the start. 00:55 And you've written 00:56 for Liberty Magazine a number of times, 00:58 and I very much appreciated your articles. 01:00 And I've never told you this, 01:02 but I get regular letters from people, 01:04 also appreciating your articles. 01:06 Thank you very much. 01:07 So you've become a strong part of what we're doing. 01:10 I'm glad you're on this program. 01:11 And as a way of introducing you to the viewers, 01:14 let's start with where you're from. 01:16 I'm from Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe. 01:18 I know it's very famous for hyperinflation... 01:21 Yes. In the past five years or so. 01:24 I am originally from Zimbabwe, studied in the US 01:27 and lived in the United States here for about 11 years, 01:31 and then I moved to Canada in 2005, 01:33 and I am now in Western Alberta in Calgary. 01:36 Good. Very cold city. 01:38 You're a true Internationalist, but none of us can get away 01:40 from where we originally came from. 01:42 Yes. 01:43 And, you know, I'd like to give the invisible title 01:47 to this program as Dreams of My Father. 01:49 I like that. 01:50 'Cause I've spoken to you, and I know that, 01:52 as with many people, 01:53 your father was deeply influential in your life. 01:55 Yes. 01:57 Tell me a little bit about how he introduced you 01:58 to the whole Adventist scenario. 02:00 You're a second generation Adventist. 02:02 Yes, I am a second generation Adventist. 02:04 I would actually say I was brought up 02:05 on The Great Controversy from a very early age. 02:08 Actually, controversy is one of the big English words, 02:11 the first big English word that I ever learned. 02:14 And my father used to read those things, 02:16 The Great Controversy, from a very early age. 02:20 And it had such a big impact on me 02:22 because Zimbabwe in the '70s 02:24 was going through a liberation struggle, 02:26 so the issue of politics 02:27 and religion was not just theoretical. 02:30 Yeah. 02:31 People used to be coerced to go to political rallies. 02:33 And my father never wanted to go to those political rallies 02:37 because of the violent language that was used in those things. 02:40 So the issue of religious liberty is one 02:43 that I had become intimately involved 02:45 in at a very, very early age, and that's what I appreciated. 02:49 And did... 02:50 From reading Great Controversy, 02:52 which Adventists know very well, 02:55 but some of our viewers might not know. 02:56 This is a seminal book for Adventism 02:59 written by Ellen G. White, 03:01 who was not only a pioneer of the church 03:04 but someone who had visionary experiences, 03:07 and it was felt that she was showing divinely 03:11 some of these future events. 03:13 And Great Controversy is sort of the cavalcade 03:15 of the human story through the Reformation, 03:19 through the modern era, and... 03:22 It's actually... 03:23 And right through the coming of Christ. 03:24 Yes, it actually begins with, as you know, 03:27 it starts with the fall of Jerusalem. 03:28 Yes. 03:30 And ends, of course, 03:31 with the second coming of Christ. 03:32 And it tells there's a great controversy 03:34 between good and evil. 03:35 Yes, it actually provides a framework of history. 03:38 And I think this is one of the things 03:39 that I appreciated with my father. 03:41 The Great Controversy was not just a doctrine, 03:43 it was a world view. 03:44 He actually looked everything within the perspectives 03:46 of The Great Controversy between good and evil. 03:50 And so to him, it was an existential reality, 03:53 and I think this is what I appreciate it. 03:55 So to me, it's not just a doctrine, 03:58 it's about God and the devil, 04:00 and trying to apply it in your daily life, 04:02 where does that put me, 04:04 and so I had that early experience. 04:06 And actually, I have a little story about my dad 04:09 because I went one time 04:10 to a political rally in the evening. 04:13 I ran away 04:15 and went to a political rally in the evening, 04:16 came very late because... 04:18 Around 11 o'clock and so he was worried where was I. 04:21 And then I actually saw him standing at the gate, 04:24 and said, "Where were you?" 04:26 And I said, "Well, I had gone witnessing," 04:28 because my father really liked witnessing. 04:30 But then he said, "Okay, let's go to the person 04:32 that you were witnessing to." 04:33 So that... 04:35 So he was suspicious. Yes, he was suspicious. 04:36 That's when I admitted I had gone to a political rally. 04:38 But from there... 04:40 You know, so the whole issue of religious liberty was one 04:42 that I have grown up with. 04:44 And of course, my father also, 04:47 he used to be a building contract, 04:49 and most of the churches, he was... 04:51 In Zimbabwe, Adventist churches, 04:53 he's the one who built them. 04:54 And one of the missionaries, 04:56 Elder Doss used to give him old copies 04:59 of the Ministry Magazine, 05:00 Adventist Review, and Liberty Magazine. 05:03 So I started actually reading the Liberty Magazine 05:07 when I was about 14 05:09 because they were old copies, but... 05:13 And back then, a lot of it would have been 05:14 about the questions of faith 05:17 and the communism, right, I'm sure. 05:19 Yes. 05:20 I know Roland Hegstad would have been the editor. 05:21 Yeah, he was the editor then. 05:23 There was a lot about communism. 05:24 And I really appreciated those magazines 05:27 because when I went to the University of Zimbabwe, 05:30 it was of course in 1985, 05:32 after Zimbabwe had become independent, 05:34 and as many people are quite aware, 05:36 Zimbabwe had adopted a Marxist ideology and Marxism. 05:40 And almost all my teachers were, 05:43 except of the holdouts from the old Rhodesia, 05:47 there were all out same, 05:49 great majority of them are Marxists. 05:51 And that is the first time 05:52 that I really appreciated The Great Controversy, 05:55 not so much as a doctrine but as a world view 05:57 because Karl Marx, Marxism... 05:59 Many people are not aware. 06:01 Karl Marx also has got this broad view of history... 06:04 Yes, absolutely. 06:06 From primitive society to a communist Utopia, 06:10 it actually mimics The Great Controversy. 06:14 Yes. 06:15 Although there's one... 06:16 I think there's a clear difference. 06:18 The Great Controversy shows the decline of men, 06:20 and Marxism argues for the ascent of men, doesn't it? 06:23 Yes, you are very, very true. 06:25 But it is very important, 06:26 a lot of people are not aware that Marxism... 06:29 I would actually say it's a defamation 06:31 of the Biblical apocalyptic message 06:36 because a lot of people are not aware that Hegel... 06:40 Marx's teacher Hegel was actually a theologian. 06:45 Feuerbach, whom also... 06:48 I knew he was a theologian. 06:49 I hadn't really thought that he was Marx's teacher. 06:52 No, he was not Marx's teacher... 06:54 You mean, he was influenced by him? 06:56 He was influenced by him, of course. 06:57 You know, he was a young Hegelian 06:59 and he was also influenced by Feuerbach. 07:01 But all those world ideologies, Marxism and the like, 07:06 they were literally fabricated 07:08 within Protestant theological departments in Germany, 07:11 and so when we look at them, 07:13 many people they think they are just scientific, 07:16 he called it "scientific" Marxism, 07:18 but it's actually been drawn from the Bible, 07:22 a defamation actually of the Biblical message. 07:24 Yeah. 07:25 And very few people thought, in my view, 07:28 as we grew up during the Cold War, 07:29 they thought... 07:31 didn't think deeply in the West, 07:32 about the philosophy of Marxism and socialism, 07:35 socialism in the communist sense, 07:37 but it had a deeply thought out rationale, 07:40 and I always believed 07:41 that it was essentially a religion of man. 07:44 Yes, it is. 07:46 You know, it's become trendy to talk about secularism 07:48 as a religion, but it's not. 07:51 But Marxism and communism is, was. 07:54 I think it is very important for people to understand 07:57 when we look at Marxism, psychoanalysis, 07:59 Sigmund Freud... 08:00 Those are not just a scientific or social sciences. 08:06 They actually arrogated to the self-prerogatives 08:08 and attributes that used to be divine attributes. 08:12 They were transferred those attributes to men, 08:15 they transferred them to science. 08:17 So there is a difference. 08:18 For example, people, they speak about science, 08:20 but there is science and scientism 08:22 where scientism has become a religion. 08:25 Even with liberalism, in its original sense, 08:30 it was an economic theory or a political theory, 08:33 but it has become a religion. 08:34 So when we look at these ideologies, 08:37 they are indeed actually secular religions 08:40 and there are many main thinkers 08:42 who actually designate them as secular religions. 08:45 And when we understand 08:46 that they are actually a religion, 08:48 then you push them 08:50 within the ambit of the Great Controversy 08:51 because the devil is always trying to mimic 08:53 God, that he must go as an angel of... 08:57 Of course, there is also one thing 08:58 that troubles a few people. 09:01 This was a very perceptive 09:02 spiritually inspired outline of history, 09:04 The Great Controversy, 09:06 but it doesn't mention communism by name, does it? 09:09 It doesn't. 09:10 But it essentially describes this sort of dynamic. 09:13 Yes, it describes... 09:14 The thing... 09:15 Though The Great Controversy does not mention communism, 09:19 it mentions how human beings 09:21 are always trying to take the place of God. 09:24 This is a crucial thing. 09:26 Human beings, in fact, from Eden, 09:28 they've always wanted to take the place of God. 09:31 With these ideologies, it's just more sophisticated 09:34 but is still the same trend. 09:38 Human beings trying to displace their maker. 09:40 Yeah. 09:42 By the way, 09:44 while you were talking about Marxism, 09:47 it reminded me of, 09:49 when I was a young person going to Bulgaria, 09:54 actually as a guest of the communist government, 09:56 I mean, my father was, but I was with him. 09:58 Your father was a missionary by the way? 10:00 He was head of the Temperance Department 10:02 for the Adventist church, but he was dealing a lot 10:05 with governments and government entities. 10:08 So they knew he was an Adventist, 10:09 but it was interesting thing. 10:13 Many of these countries, 10:14 he was seen as a temperance organizer 10:18 rather than a church leader and he could coordinate 10:21 with government leaders and government departments. 10:23 So we went in as guests of government 10:25 and I remember driving down the street 10:28 with the head of state, 10:30 and here we see all of the banners on the side, 10:34 the typical communist thing, 10:35 the flags of the marching crowds and his picture. 10:38 And I remember my father saying, "Oh, your picture." 10:40 He says, "Oh, yes, we have an election at the moment." 10:43 My father, "Wish you well," he says." 10:45 Don't worry. No one is running against me." 10:48 But the explanation... 10:49 What I am building to the explanation 10:51 that I got then firsthand and... 10:55 As a form of religion. 10:56 Yes, but what they always would talk about, 11:00 the banners always said, "Toward Communism." 11:03 They were not there. 11:05 I mean, it was almost like 11:07 the Jews in the 40 years of wandering, 11:09 you are going to the Promised Land. 11:12 The Great Controversy tells us the story about voyage, 11:15 you know, I believe in a literary sense, 11:18 there's always a journey 11:20 and we are on our way to the Promised Land, 11:22 to the future life with Christ. 11:25 And communism, because of this certain element of the journey 11:29 and of a religious entity, it could carry people 11:33 through the dictatorship of the masses, 11:35 carried them through the depravation of Stalin 11:38 and all the rest because you had this secular hope, 11:41 you were going to this Promised Land. 11:43 Yes, it was a secular hope. 11:44 Yes, but I want to even go back on that 11:45 because there is a German philosopher Karl Lowith, 11:50 he actually dwells on that. 11:51 How Hegel, Karl Marx, 11:54 they actually transferred all the eschatological motifs 11:59 from the Bible to the communist utopia 12:03 so that people must know 12:05 that Western culture is Christian in origin 12:10 but unchristian in its evolution. 12:13 That's very, very, very important. 12:15 If we actually understand 12:17 the crisis of Western civilization, 12:19 a lot of people are talking today 12:20 about the crisis of liberalism, 12:22 the crisis of these Western ideologies 12:24 of what we are... 12:26 The crisis of democracy. 12:27 But we cannot understand that unless we understand 12:30 how the foundation is biblical. 12:34 Yeah. 12:35 But the super structure has become 12:36 what they have built on top is secular. 12:40 It's man's Tower of Babel. 12:42 Yes, the man's Tower of Babel. 12:44 Yeah, no, you are right. And it is to be expected. 12:46 I mean, apart from fulfilling, 12:49 you know, God's explanation 12:51 of how he has worked through history and so on, 12:53 when you have people that had gone through 12:57 a period of deep religiosity 12:58 and religious control in the medieval era, 13:01 even though the philosophy changes, 13:03 their thought patterns are all structured 13:05 and all their cultural analogies are religious. 13:09 So it makes perfect sense. 13:11 So of course, you would use that as a vehicle 13:14 for this new ideology. 13:15 Yes, maybe I want to go back actually to the Reformation. 13:18 Today, I mean, last year was celebrated 13:20 the 500 year anniversary of the Protestant Reformation. 13:23 Well, at least Luther's part of it. 13:25 Yes, the Luther's part of it. 13:28 But I think I would want to say that... 13:29 You know, I am a very anglophile. 13:30 Remember the morning star of the Reformation, 13:32 John Wycliffe, long time before? 13:34 Yes, but I think still I... 13:36 Let me pull rank and pull time. 13:40 Please stay with us. 13:42 But after a short break, we will be back to continue 13:44 very invigorating discussion with Elijah Mvundura. |
Revised 2018-08-27