Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:00:26.49\00:00:28.22
This is a program
that brings you news,
00:00:28.26\00:00:30.49
views, up-to-date information,
00:00:30.53\00:00:32.66
and the analysis on
religious liberty events
00:00:32.69\00:00:35.73
in the US and around the world.
00:00:35.76\00:00:38.20
My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty magazine,
00:00:38.23\00:00:41.47
and my guest on this
program is Elijah Mvundura.
00:00:41.50\00:00:45.87
You got the pronunciation right.
00:00:45.91\00:00:47.31
Yeah. Names are very important.
00:00:47.34\00:00:50.48
And as an editor, I
know, you get them wrong
00:00:50.51\00:00:52.11
and you're on the wrong
side of things from the start.
00:00:52.15\00:00:55.35
And you've written
00:00:55.38\00:00:56.72
for Liberty
Magazine a number of times,
00:00:56.75\00:00:58.09
and I very much
appreciated your articles.
00:00:58.12\00:01:00.89
And I've never told you this,
00:01:00.92\00:01:02.29
but I get regular
letters from people,
00:01:02.32\00:01:04.49
also appreciating your articles.
00:01:04.53\00:01:06.26
Thank you very much.
00:01:06.29\00:01:07.63
So you've become a
strong part of what we're doing.
00:01:07.66\00:01:10.00
I'm glad you're on this program.
00:01:10.03\00:01:11.73
And as a way of
introducing you to the viewers,
00:01:11.77\00:01:14.77
let's start with
where you're from.
00:01:14.80\00:01:16.71
I'm from Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe.
00:01:16.74\00:01:18.94
I know it's very
famous for hyperinflation...
00:01:18.97\00:01:21.61
Yes. In the past
five years or so.
00:01:21.64\00:01:24.81
I am originally from
Zimbabwe, studied in the US
00:01:24.85\00:01:27.78
and lived in the United
States here for about 11 years,
00:01:27.82\00:01:31.45
and then I moved
to Canada in 2005,
00:01:31.49\00:01:33.92
and I am now in
Western Alberta in Calgary.
00:01:33.96\00:01:36.76
Good. Very cold city.
00:01:36.79\00:01:38.13
You're a true Internationalist,
but none of us can get away
00:01:38.16\00:01:40.70
from where we
originally came from.
00:01:40.73\00:01:42.33
Yes.
00:01:42.36\00:01:43.70
And, you know, I'd like
to give the invisible title
00:01:43.73\00:01:46.97
to this program as
Dreams of My Father.
00:01:47.00\00:01:49.47
I like that.
00:01:49.50\00:01:50.84
'Cause I've spoken
to you, and I know that,
00:01:50.87\00:01:52.21
as with many people,
00:01:52.24\00:01:53.58
your father was deeply
influential in your life.
00:01:53.61\00:01:55.71
Yes.
00:01:55.74\00:01:57.08
Tell me a little bit
about how he introduced you
00:01:57.11\00:01:58.45
to the whole Adventist scenario.
00:01:58.48\00:02:00.82
You're a second
generation Adventist.
00:02:00.85\00:02:02.32
Yes, I am a second
generation Adventist.
00:02:02.35\00:02:04.25
I would actually
say I was brought up
00:02:04.29\00:02:05.85
on The Great Controversy
from a very early age.
00:02:05.89\00:02:08.69
Actually, controversy is
one of the big English words,
00:02:08.72\00:02:11.76
the first big English
word that I ever learned.
00:02:11.79\00:02:14.46
And my father used
to read those things,
00:02:14.50\00:02:16.73
The Great Controversy,
from a very early age.
00:02:16.77\00:02:20.30
And it had such
a big impact on me
00:02:20.34\00:02:22.00
because Zimbabwe in the '70s
00:02:22.04\00:02:24.31
was going through a
liberation struggle,
00:02:24.34\00:02:26.14
so the issue of politics
00:02:26.17\00:02:27.51
and religion was
not just theoretical.
00:02:27.54\00:02:30.45
Yeah.
00:02:30.48\00:02:31.81
People used to be coerced
to go to political rallies.
00:02:31.85\00:02:33.85
And my father never wanted
to go to those political rallies
00:02:33.88\00:02:37.65
because of the violent language
that was used in those things.
00:02:37.69\00:02:40.46
So the issue of
religious liberty is one
00:02:40.49\00:02:43.02
that I had become
intimately involved
00:02:43.06\00:02:45.76
in at a very, very early age,
and that's what I appreciated.
00:02:45.79\00:02:49.46
And did...
00:02:49.50\00:02:50.83
From reading Great Controversy,
00:02:50.87\00:02:52.20
which Adventists know very well,
00:02:52.23\00:02:54.97
but some of our
viewers might not know.
00:02:55.00\00:02:56.44
This is a seminal
book for Adventism
00:02:56.47\00:02:59.57
written by Ellen G. White,
00:02:59.61\00:03:00.98
who was not only a
pioneer of the church
00:03:01.01\00:03:04.05
but someone who had
visionary experiences,
00:03:04.08\00:03:07.05
and it was felt that
she was showing divinely
00:03:07.08\00:03:11.65
some of these future events.
00:03:11.69\00:03:13.46
And Great Controversy
is sort of the cavalcade
00:03:13.49\00:03:15.92
of the human story
through the Reformation,
00:03:15.96\00:03:19.23
through the modern era, and...
00:03:19.26\00:03:22.16
It's actually...
00:03:22.20\00:03:23.53
And right through
the coming of Christ.
00:03:23.57\00:03:24.90
Yes, it actually
begins with, as you know,
00:03:24.93\00:03:26.97
it starts with
the fall of Jerusalem.
00:03:27.00\00:03:28.64
Yes.
00:03:28.67\00:03:30.01
And ends, of course,
00:03:30.04\00:03:31.37
with the second
coming of Christ.
00:03:31.41\00:03:32.74
And it tells
there's a great controversy
00:03:32.77\00:03:34.11
between good and evil.
00:03:34.14\00:03:35.48
Yes, it actually
provides a framework of history.
00:03:35.51\00:03:38.15
And I think this
is one of the things
00:03:38.18\00:03:39.51
that I
appreciated with my father.
00:03:39.55\00:03:41.28
The Great Controversy
was not just a doctrine,
00:03:41.32\00:03:43.25
it was a world view.
00:03:43.28\00:03:44.65
He actually looked everything
within the perspectives
00:03:44.69\00:03:46.89
of The Great Controversy
between good and evil.
00:03:46.92\00:03:50.29
And so to him, it was
an existential reality,
00:03:50.33\00:03:53.70
and I think this is
what I appreciate it.
00:03:53.73\00:03:55.23
So to me, it's
not just a doctrine,
00:03:55.26\00:03:58.20
it's about God and the devil,
00:03:58.23\00:04:00.34
and trying to apply
it in your daily life,
00:04:00.37\00:04:02.80
where does that put me,
00:04:02.84\00:04:04.17
and so I had
that early experience.
00:04:04.21\00:04:06.07
And actually, I have a
little story about my dad
00:04:06.11\00:04:09.18
because I went one time
00:04:09.21\00:04:10.68
to a political
rally in the evening.
00:04:10.71\00:04:13.68
I ran away
00:04:13.72\00:04:15.05
and went to a
political rally in the evening,
00:04:15.08\00:04:16.75
came very late because...
00:04:16.79\00:04:18.52
Around 11 o'clock and so
he was worried where was I.
00:04:18.55\00:04:21.62
And then I actually saw
him standing at the gate,
00:04:21.66\00:04:24.86
and said, "Where were you?"
00:04:24.89\00:04:26.23
And I said, "Well, I
had gone witnessing,"
00:04:26.26\00:04:28.00
because my father
really liked witnessing.
00:04:28.03\00:04:30.47
But then he said,
"Okay, let's go to the person
00:04:30.50\00:04:32.30
that you were witnessing to."
00:04:32.33\00:04:33.67
So that...
00:04:33.70\00:04:35.04
So he was suspicious.
Yes, he was suspicious.
00:04:35.07\00:04:36.77
That's when I admitted I
had gone to a political rally.
00:04:36.81\00:04:38.77
But from there...
00:04:38.81\00:04:40.14
You know, so the whole issue
of religious liberty was one
00:04:40.18\00:04:42.54
that I have grown up with.
00:04:42.58\00:04:44.65
And of course, my father also,
00:04:44.68\00:04:47.72
he used to be a
building contract,
00:04:47.75\00:04:49.08
and most of the
churches, he was...
00:04:49.12\00:04:51.69
In Zimbabwe, Adventist churches,
00:04:51.72\00:04:53.12
he's the one who built them.
00:04:53.15\00:04:54.49
And one of the missionaries,
00:04:54.52\00:04:56.69
Elder Doss used to
give him old copies
00:04:56.73\00:04:58.99
of the Ministry Magazine,
00:04:59.03\00:05:00.83
Adventist Review,
and Liberty Magazine.
00:05:00.86\00:05:03.26
So I started actually
reading the Liberty Magazine
00:05:03.30\00:05:07.64
when I was about 14
00:05:07.67\00:05:09.40
because they were
old copies, but...
00:05:09.44\00:05:13.07
And back then, a lot
of it would have been
00:05:13.11\00:05:14.68
about the questions of faith
00:05:14.71\00:05:17.45
and the
communism, right, I'm sure.
00:05:17.48\00:05:19.05
Yes.
00:05:19.08\00:05:20.42
I know Roland Hegstad
would have been the editor.
00:05:20.45\00:05:21.78
Yeah, he was the editor then.
00:05:21.82\00:05:23.15
There was a lot about communism.
00:05:23.18\00:05:24.55
And I really
appreciated those magazines
00:05:24.59\00:05:27.22
because when I went to
the University of Zimbabwe,
00:05:27.26\00:05:30.43
it was of course in 1985,
00:05:30.46\00:05:32.69
after Zimbabwe had
become independent,
00:05:32.73\00:05:34.63
and as many
people are quite aware,
00:05:34.66\00:05:36.53
Zimbabwe had adopted a
Marxist ideology and Marxism.
00:05:36.56\00:05:40.04
And almost all my teachers were,
00:05:40.07\00:05:43.54
except of the
holdouts from the old Rhodesia,
00:05:43.57\00:05:47.68
there were all out same,
00:05:47.71\00:05:49.04
great majority of
them are Marxists.
00:05:49.08\00:05:51.31
And that is the first time
00:05:51.35\00:05:52.68
that I really appreciated
The Great Controversy,
00:05:52.71\00:05:55.12
not so much as a
doctrine but as a world view
00:05:55.15\00:05:57.95
because Karl Marx, Marxism...
00:05:57.99\00:05:59.75
Many people are not aware.
00:05:59.79\00:06:01.12
Karl Marx also has got
this broad view of history...
00:06:01.16\00:06:04.09
Yes, absolutely.
00:06:04.13\00:06:06.43
From primitive
society to a communist Utopia,
00:06:06.46\00:06:10.37
it actually mimics
The Great Controversy.
00:06:10.40\00:06:14.17
Yes.
00:06:14.20\00:06:15.54
Although there's one...
00:06:15.57\00:06:16.91
I think there's
a clear difference.
00:06:16.94\00:06:18.27
The Great Controversy
shows the decline of men,
00:06:18.31\00:06:20.38
and Marxism argues for
the ascent of men, doesn't it?
00:06:20.41\00:06:23.35
Yes, you are very, very true.
00:06:23.38\00:06:25.48
But it is very important,
00:06:25.51\00:06:26.85
a lot of people are
not aware that Marxism...
00:06:26.88\00:06:29.15
I would actually
say it's a defamation
00:06:29.18\00:06:31.49
of the Biblical
apocalyptic message
00:06:31.52\00:06:36.02
because a lot of people
are not aware that Hegel...
00:06:36.06\00:06:40.40
Marx's teacher Hegel
was actually a theologian.
00:06:40.43\00:06:45.80
Feuerbach, whom also...
00:06:45.83\00:06:48.40
I knew he was a theologian.
00:06:48.44\00:06:49.94
I hadn't really thought
that he was Marx's teacher.
00:06:49.97\00:06:52.41
No, he was not Marx's teacher...
00:06:52.44\00:06:54.11
You mean, he was
influenced by him?
00:06:54.14\00:06:56.04
He was influenced
by him, of course.
00:06:56.08\00:06:57.55
You know, he
was a young Hegelian
00:06:57.58\00:06:59.38
and he was also
influenced by Feuerbach.
00:06:59.41\00:07:01.72
But all those world ideologies,
Marxism and the like,
00:07:01.75\00:07:06.65
they were literally fabricated
00:07:06.69\00:07:08.19
within Protestant theological
departments in Germany,
00:07:08.22\00:07:11.43
and so when we look at them,
00:07:11.46\00:07:13.29
many people they think
they are just scientific,
00:07:13.33\00:07:16.20
he called it
"scientific" Marxism,
00:07:16.23\00:07:18.40
but it's actually
been drawn from the Bible,
00:07:18.43\00:07:22.00
a defamation actually
of the Biblical message.
00:07:22.04\00:07:24.17
Yeah.
00:07:24.21\00:07:25.54
And very few people
thought, in my view,
00:07:25.57\00:07:28.24
as we grew up
during the Cold War,
00:07:28.28\00:07:29.81
they thought...
00:07:29.84\00:07:31.18
didn't think deeply in the West,
00:07:31.21\00:07:32.55
about the philosophy
of Marxism and socialism,
00:07:32.58\00:07:35.02
socialism in
the communist sense,
00:07:35.05\00:07:37.52
but it had a deeply
thought out rationale,
00:07:37.55\00:07:40.19
and I always believed
00:07:40.22\00:07:41.72
that it was
essentially a religion of man.
00:07:41.76\00:07:44.86
Yes, it is.
00:07:44.89\00:07:46.23
You know, it's become
trendy to talk about secularism
00:07:46.26\00:07:48.33
as a religion, but it's not.
00:07:48.36\00:07:51.03
But Marxism and
communism is, was.
00:07:51.07\00:07:54.44
I think it is very important
for people to understand
00:07:54.47\00:07:57.34
when we look at
Marxism, psychoanalysis,
00:07:57.37\00:07:59.54
Sigmund Freud...
00:07:59.57\00:08:00.91
Those are not just a
scientific or social sciences.
00:08:00.94\00:08:05.98
They actually arrogated
to the self-prerogatives
00:08:06.01\00:08:08.82
and attributes that
used to be divine attributes.
00:08:08.85\00:08:12.92
They were transferred
those attributes to men,
00:08:12.95\00:08:15.46
they
transferred them to science.
00:08:15.49\00:08:17.53
So there is a difference.
00:08:17.56\00:08:18.89
For example, people,
they speak about science,
00:08:18.93\00:08:20.53
but there is
science and scientism
00:08:20.56\00:08:22.80
where scientism
has become a religion.
00:08:22.83\00:08:25.37
Even with liberalism,
in its original sense,
00:08:25.40\00:08:30.67
it was an economic
theory or a political theory,
00:08:30.71\00:08:33.24
but it has become a religion.
00:08:33.27\00:08:34.61
So when we look
at these ideologies,
00:08:34.64\00:08:37.91
they are indeed
actually secular religions
00:08:37.95\00:08:40.08
and there are many main thinkers
00:08:40.12\00:08:42.12
who actually designate
them as secular religions.
00:08:42.15\00:08:45.02
And when we understand
00:08:45.05\00:08:46.52
that they are
actually a religion,
00:08:46.55\00:08:48.86
then you push them
00:08:48.89\00:08:50.23
within the ambit of
the Great Controversy
00:08:50.26\00:08:51.73
because the devil is
always trying to mimic
00:08:51.76\00:08:53.93
God, that he must
go as an angel of...
00:08:53.96\00:08:57.10
Of course, there
is also one thing
00:08:57.13\00:08:58.93
that troubles a few people.
00:08:58.97\00:09:01.27
This was a very perceptive
00:09:01.30\00:09:02.80
spiritually
inspired outline of history,
00:09:02.84\00:09:04.91
The Great Controversy,
00:09:04.94\00:09:06.27
but it doesn't mention
communism by name, does it?
00:09:06.31\00:09:09.21
It doesn't.
00:09:09.24\00:09:10.58
But it essentially
describes this sort of dynamic.
00:09:10.61\00:09:13.05
Yes, it describes...
00:09:13.08\00:09:14.42
The thing...
00:09:14.45\00:09:15.82
Though The Great Controversy
does not mention communism,
00:09:15.85\00:09:19.65
it mentions how human beings
00:09:19.69\00:09:21.42
are always trying to
take the place of God.
00:09:21.46\00:09:24.29
This is a crucial thing.
00:09:24.33\00:09:25.99
Human beings,
in fact, from Eden,
00:09:26.03\00:09:28.93
they've always wanted
to take the place of God.
00:09:28.96\00:09:31.53
With these ideologies,
it's just more sophisticated
00:09:31.57\00:09:34.30
but is still the same trend.
00:09:34.34\00:09:38.17
Human beings trying
to displace their maker.
00:09:38.21\00:09:40.68
Yeah.
00:09:40.71\00:09:42.08
By the way,
00:09:42.11\00:09:44.75
while you were
talking about Marxism,
00:09:44.78\00:09:47.68
it reminded me of,
00:09:47.72\00:09:49.58
when I was a young
person going to Bulgaria,
00:09:49.62\00:09:54.06
actually as a guest of
the communist government,
00:09:54.09\00:09:56.19
I mean, my father
was, but I was with him.
00:09:56.22\00:09:58.79
Your father was a
missionary by the way?
00:09:58.83\00:10:00.73
He was head of the
Temperance Department
00:10:00.76\00:10:02.63
for the Adventist
church, but he was dealing a lot
00:10:02.66\00:10:05.30
with governments
and government entities.
00:10:05.33\00:10:08.30
So they knew he
was an Adventist,
00:10:08.34\00:10:09.77
but it was interesting thing.
00:10:09.80\00:10:13.27
Many of these countries,
00:10:13.31\00:10:14.64
he was seen as a
temperance organizer
00:10:14.68\00:10:18.05
rather than a church
leader and he could coordinate
00:10:18.08\00:10:21.32
with government leaders
and government departments.
00:10:21.35\00:10:23.65
So we went in as
guests of government
00:10:23.69\00:10:25.49
and I remember
driving down the street
00:10:25.52\00:10:28.16
with the head of state,
00:10:28.19\00:10:30.79
and here we see all of
the banners on the side,
00:10:30.83\00:10:34.13
the typical communist thing,
00:10:34.16\00:10:35.50
the flags of the
marching crowds and his picture.
00:10:35.53\00:10:38.73
And I remember my father
saying, "Oh, your picture."
00:10:38.77\00:10:40.90
He says, "Oh, yes, we have
an election at the moment."
00:10:40.94\00:10:43.74
My father, "Wish
you well," he says."
00:10:43.77\00:10:45.11
Don't worry. No one
is running against me."
00:10:45.14\00:10:48.08
But the explanation...
00:10:48.11\00:10:49.74
What I am
building to the explanation
00:10:49.78\00:10:51.18
that I got then firsthand and...
00:10:51.21\00:10:55.52
As a form of religion.
00:10:55.55\00:10:56.89
Yes, but what they
always would talk about,
00:10:56.92\00:11:00.22
the banners always
said, "Toward Communism."
00:11:00.26\00:11:03.73
They were not there.
00:11:03.76\00:11:05.76
I mean, it was almost like
00:11:05.79\00:11:07.46
the Jews in the 40
years of wandering,
00:11:07.50\00:11:09.63
you are going to
the Promised Land.
00:11:09.66\00:11:12.03
The Great Controversy
tells us the story about voyage,
00:11:12.07\00:11:15.37
you know, I believe
in a literary sense,
00:11:15.40\00:11:18.04
there's always a journey
00:11:18.07\00:11:20.18
and we are on our
way to the Promised Land,
00:11:20.21\00:11:22.21
to the future life with Christ.
00:11:22.24\00:11:25.71
And communism, because of this
certain element of the journey
00:11:25.75\00:11:29.58
and of a religious
entity, it could carry people
00:11:29.62\00:11:33.56
through the
dictatorship of the masses,
00:11:33.59\00:11:35.79
carried them through
the depravation of Stalin
00:11:35.82\00:11:38.36
and all the rest because
you had this secular hope,
00:11:38.39\00:11:41.16
you were going to
this Promised Land.
00:11:41.20\00:11:42.96
Yes, it was a secular hope.
00:11:43.00\00:11:44.33
Yes, but I want to
even go back on that
00:11:44.37\00:11:45.70
because there is a
German philosopher Karl Lowith,
00:11:45.73\00:11:50.07
he actually dwells on that.
00:11:50.11\00:11:51.84
How Hegel, Karl Marx,
00:11:51.87\00:11:54.21
they actually transferred
all the eschatological motifs
00:11:54.24\00:11:59.58
from the Bible to
the communist utopia
00:11:59.61\00:12:03.49
so that people must know
00:12:03.52\00:12:05.42
that Western culture
is Christian in origin
00:12:05.45\00:12:10.36
but unchristian
in its evolution.
00:12:10.39\00:12:13.56
That's very,
very, very important.
00:12:13.60\00:12:15.13
If we actually understand
00:12:15.16\00:12:17.07
the crisis of
Western civilization,
00:12:17.10\00:12:19.27
a lot of people
are talking today
00:12:19.30\00:12:20.90
about the crisis of liberalism,
00:12:20.94\00:12:22.94
the crisis of
these Western ideologies
00:12:22.97\00:12:24.84
of what we are...
00:12:24.87\00:12:26.21
The crisis of democracy.
00:12:26.24\00:12:27.58
But we cannot understand
that unless we understand
00:12:27.61\00:12:30.35
how the foundation is biblical.
00:12:30.38\00:12:33.98
Yeah.
00:12:34.02\00:12:35.35
But the super
structure has become
00:12:35.38\00:12:36.92
what they have
built on top is secular.
00:12:36.95\00:12:40.96
It's man's Tower of Babel.
00:12:40.99\00:12:42.49
Yes, the man's Tower of Babel.
00:12:42.52\00:12:44.36
Yeah, no, you are right.
And it is to be expected.
00:12:44.39\00:12:46.86
I mean, apart from fulfilling,
00:12:46.90\00:12:49.33
you know, God's explanation
00:12:49.36\00:12:51.83
of how he has worked
through history and so on,
00:12:51.87\00:12:53.80
when you have people
that had gone through
00:12:53.84\00:12:56.97
a period of deep religiosity
00:12:57.01\00:12:58.54
and religious
control in the medieval era,
00:12:58.57\00:13:01.64
even though the
philosophy changes,
00:13:01.68\00:13:03.61
their thought
patterns are all structured
00:13:03.65\00:13:05.31
and all their cultural
analogies are religious.
00:13:05.35\00:13:09.82
So it makes perfect sense.
00:13:09.85\00:13:11.82
So of course, you
would use that as a vehicle
00:13:11.85\00:13:14.16
for this new ideology.
00:13:14.19\00:13:15.69
Yes, maybe I want to go back
actually to the Reformation.
00:13:15.72\00:13:18.66
Today, I mean,
last year was celebrated
00:13:18.69\00:13:20.90
the 500 year anniversary
of the Protestant Reformation.
00:13:20.93\00:13:23.87
Well, at least
Luther's part of it.
00:13:23.90\00:13:25.63
Yes, the Luther's part of it.
00:13:25.67\00:13:28.00
But I think I
would want to say that...
00:13:28.04\00:13:29.37
You know, I am
a very anglophile.
00:13:29.40\00:13:30.74
Remember the morning
star of the Reformation,
00:13:30.77\00:13:32.57
John Wycliffe, long time before?
00:13:32.61\00:13:34.61
Yes, but I think still I...
00:13:34.64\00:13:36.18
Let me pull rank and pull time.
00:13:36.21\00:13:40.62
Please stay with us.
00:13:40.65\00:13:41.98
But after a short break,
we will be back to continue
00:13:42.02\00:13:44.45
very invigorating
discussion with Elijah Mvundura.
00:13:44.49\00:13:47.49