Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is your
program bringing you news,
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views, discussion, and insight
on religious liberty events
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in the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty magazine,
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and my guest on the
program, Greg Hamilton,
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President of the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association
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and a repeat
offender on this program.
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Appreciate your
input always. Thank you.
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Let's talk about
the United States.
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I said worldwide
which we often cover,
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but let's talk
about the US, and rights,
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this is a nation
of rights, right?
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Yeah, I believe
so, but, you know,
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when policemen march
down the streets in St. Louis
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and say against the protestors,
"We own these streets,"
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I'm reminded the fact that no,
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peacefully protesting
citizens own these streets,
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and it's the police
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that are
servants of the citizenry.
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So, you know,
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I think that we
are getting things
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backwards today.
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Absolutely.
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For some reason, we Americans
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are more and more
loving authoritarianism.
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Absolutely.
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And that's a problem.
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And you're
talking about protesting,
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where I first started...
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My heckle started to rise
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was two administrations ago,
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I think it started
because the inauguration
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of George Bush, to
name the president,
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was a bit contentious
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and he had to ride instead
of walk down to Pennsylvania,
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but shortly after that,
they started roping off areas
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sometimes a mile
from the event at hand,
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where you could freely speak,
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they were
called free speak zones
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only within the enclosure.
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I thought, "Man,
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at the very
least it's like 1984,"
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where up is now down,
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you know, the
language is changed
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but what amounts to
it is free speech is gone
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or at least in principle.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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You know, I think of Christ
in junction in Matthew 7:12,
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where he said, "So in
everything, do to others
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what you would
have them do to you,
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for this sums up the
Law and the Prophets."
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Golden rule.
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It's a golden rule,
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and that's a very
hard ideal to live up to
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but it's what we
are called to do.
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And I'll never forget,
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when I was a kid
growing up in 1976,
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Jimmy Carter had just
been elected president,
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and my dad was riding in
the back of a pick-up truck
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with his best friend
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and his best friend had
two guns in his gun rack,
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and a window opened,
the slide had opened,
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and I was able to
listen to their conversation,
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and his question was,
"Well, is Jimmy Carter
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the one to bring
about National Sunday laws?"
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And you know, I just thought,
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"Oh, this is typical sport
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among us Seventh-day
Adventists, you know?
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Okay, the next president,
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is he the one that's going
to bring about Sunday Laws?"
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And I thought
that was interesting.
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And then he said this,
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a deep philosophical
discussion took place
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about whether or
not as Christians,
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we should view our
Constitutional right
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as privileges and not as rights
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that we should demand.
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In fact, the conversation
awakened something in me,
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and I am glad that my dad being
a Lincoln Republican disagreed.
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He basically said that kind
of apathy creates a problem.
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It creates feelings
of superiority that,
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you know, if we should only view
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our rights as
privileges and not as rights.
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What does that
do? It leads to abuse.
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To me, it...
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The claim that somehow
we are obsessed with rights
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means that, well,
we are going to deny
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somebody else their
rights and it's easy to say
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as a white
American male to say that
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because then I don't want
to recognize all the hard work
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it's taken for a nation to
get to the path we are on now
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in terms of where we've come
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in terms of our
nation of rights.
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Yeah. They were hard fought for.
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Whether you look at
the American Revolution,
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whether you look
at the Civil War,
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whether you look
at Reconstruction
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and Post-reconstruction period,
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you look at the
civil rights movement,
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you look at the Jim Crow laws,
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the civil rights movement,
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and where we've
come as a nation,
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it's been hard
fought, and a lot of people
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have deserved to have access
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to those Bill of
the People's Rights,
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so to speak, those rights
under the First Amendments
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and all the Amendments.
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Well, we are forgetting
the dynamic between the ruled
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and the ruler and
we are drifting toward
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an autocratic view of government
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which naturally
takes away rights.
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And I think we
are also forgetting
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where that comes from.
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I mean, Jefferson
famously said inalienable rights
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by virtue of the...
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What was his term?
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Nature and
nature's God, wasn't it?
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Yes.
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You can debate forever
exactly his view on religion,
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but I think he meant the
God that's covered by the Bible
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creator that he didn't want
to make it sound too narrow.
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But, you know, if we don't,
unless we go back to that,
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then we are just
in legal constructs
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that move according to
the sentiments of the time.
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I think this is what you wanted
to get out in your discussion.
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Oh, absolutely.
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In a sinful world,
our nation of equal rights
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is the best we
can actually hope for.
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I believe these
constitutional rights
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are safeguard
against discrimination,
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dictatorship, and tyranny.
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And I believe, Lincoln,
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that apathy is what
causes people to relax
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and allow untold discrimination
and injustice to thrive.
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And I think that's kind
of where our country is at.
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Sometimes apathy,
sometimes privilege.
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Yes, that too.
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Like we in a first
world situation, right?
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Yeah.
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We are not uninformed
about the third world.
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Yeah.
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But are we greatly motivated
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to equalize things and
to recognize those rights?
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Most people are not
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because why would we
disadvantage ourselves
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for an abstraction
that we ever know it's there
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but we are not moved.
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Eleanor Roosevelt, the author
of the Universal Declaration
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of Human Rights, which
is a universal standard,
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but nevertheless in
terms of international law,
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but she says, "Where, after all,
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do universal human rights begin?
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In small places, close to home,
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so close and so small
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that they cannot be seen
on any maps of the world.
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Yet they are the world
of the individual person,
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the neighborhood he lives in,
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the school or
college he attends,
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the factory, farm, or
office where he works.
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Such are the places
where every man, woman,
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and child seeks equal
justice, equal opportunity,
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equal dignity
without discrimination.
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Unless these rights
have any meaning there,
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they have little
meaning anywhere.
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Without concerned citizen action
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to uphold them close to home,
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we shall look in vain
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for progress in
the larger world."
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And I think of
our own nation here.
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You know, if our apathy
says, "Well, okay, you know,
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everybody has their rights,
and, you know, why demand them,
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you know, you are
just a trouble maker
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if you demand your rights."
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I think that
creates a problem that,
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you know, when
certain groups of people
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and/or an individual is deprived
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of their rights under the
law, we should take notice.
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Well, let me throw out
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the real everyday
example in the negative.
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Seems to me,
certain public statements
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were made about Puerto Rico
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after the
relatively recent disaster
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that reflects this
sort of hierarchy of rights.
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Oh, that these countries come
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from a certain round circle.
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Yeah.
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No, but most people dismissed it
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as just a political foul power
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or bad public statement
but underneath that lay exactly
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what we are talking about here.
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And I hadn't realized
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that Eleanor
Roosevelt wrote that way
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because she is absolutely right.
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You've got to see it immediate
as a part of a society,
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it's hard in the abstract.
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And it connects with what
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I've noticed on television.
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What are some of the
groups, "Save the Children"
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or all these
different types of things,
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they will have ads where there
is a single child, you know,
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puss running down
their eyes or whatever
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and flies buzzing
around, "Help this child."
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People respond to that
'cause they can personalize it,
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and that's fine,
that's our human nature.
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But somehow, we need to get
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through to people to
see it in the theoretical
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that the people that
are not next door to them
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or in the trailer
parks across the street
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or something like that,
they are all as deserving
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and have the same
right to life, liberty,
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and happiness as anyone else.
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Oh, absolutely.
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And that was part of
the genius of the framers
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they have recognized
or at least formulated
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and it put it down as an ideal.
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A 2010 Baylor University study
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suggested that religion itself
may be a contributing factor.
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This is coming from
the most elite, largest,
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most influential
Baptist University
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in the world.
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And the study
published in the journal,
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Social Psychological
and Personality Science,
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found that people subliminally
primed with Christian words
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or phrases reported
more negative attitudes
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about African-Americans
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than those primed
with neutral words.
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"What's
interesting about the study
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is that it shows
some component of religion
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does lead to some
negative evaluations
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of people based on
race," said Wade Rowatt,
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the professor who
conducted the study.
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One possible explanation,
one that consistently
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came up in the research
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is it because
America's religious traditions
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are so influenced by Puritanism,
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people responding
to religious terms
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may be drawing on ideals
like the protestant work ethic
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which has been shown to
activate anti-Black attitudes
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including the phrase
constitutional privileges,
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a phrase often
used by evangelicals
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to evoke their
disdain for equal rights.
00:10:05.97\00:10:09.20
Well, there's probably a
line you can draw on that, too.
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But when they say religion,
what I am trying to bring out,
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there's a world of difference
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between religion
and spirituality,
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and religion has
long been the cover
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for all sorts of
biases and prejudices
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and racism in particular.
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Yes, well, that's
what the study points out.
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But if it's expressed wrongly,
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it looks like
religion is the problem.
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Right.
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No, I am...
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You know, the
organization of religion
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is facilitating
irreligious people
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indulging in their
natural tendencies.
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This professor is
not making that argument.
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And what does the Bible say?
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A true religion is this.
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What was it?
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It had to deal
with the love in God
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and love in justice
for your fellow man.
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Yes.
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Right, and that's essentially
what the Fourteenth Amendment
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suggests as well.
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What does the Fourteenth
Amendment section one say?
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"All persons born
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or naturalized in
the United States,
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and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof,
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are citizens of
the United States
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and of the State
wherein they reside.
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No State shall make any law
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which shall
abridge the privileges
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or immunities of the
citizens of the United States,
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nor shall any State deprive
any person of life, liberty,
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or property
without due process of law,
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nor deny to any person
within its jurisdiction
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the equal
protection of the laws."
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And, you know, when
you look at our nation
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and all the
Supreme Court rulings
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that had been handed down,
00:11:36.62\00:11:38.03
we have come a long ways...
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That goes back a long way.
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That's almost the
exact same language
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as from Runnymede,
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the Magna Carta, that
was the original burden
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against your
rights not being granted
00:11:48.94\00:11:51.61
and subject to arbitrary rest,
00:11:51.64\00:11:53.17
imprisonment, personal
abuse, loss of property,
00:11:53.21\00:11:57.48
and all the rest.
00:11:57.51\00:11:59.41
It's been the
struggle of western law,
00:11:59.45\00:12:01.88
and the US has continued it.
00:12:01.92\00:12:03.75
How do you protect the
landless or the non-aristocrat
00:12:03.79\00:12:08.96
who doesn't have an
army or a posse or whatever,
00:12:08.99\00:12:13.23
and even now I think
we are in deep trouble
00:12:13.26\00:12:15.63
because I've seen
since Watergate particularly,
00:12:15.66\00:12:19.83
in the US, you
don't get good justice
00:12:19.87\00:12:22.50
unless you are
wealthy, connected or whatever,
00:12:22.54\00:12:25.44
and people have run
afoul of the past the bail,
00:12:25.47\00:12:27.58
they would be
litigated into poverty
00:12:27.61\00:12:31.28
and they're already poor,
00:12:31.31\00:12:33.05
cannot even get a
good hearing in the courts.
00:12:33.08\00:12:35.78
The public
defenders often don't care,
00:12:35.82\00:12:38.69
I mean, it's a good concept,
00:12:38.72\00:12:40.79
but you don't get a
good level of justice
00:12:40.82\00:12:45.13
if you are without means in US.
00:12:45.16\00:12:46.63
So we are paying
lip service to this,
00:12:46.66\00:12:48.80
but we are already far alone
00:12:48.83\00:12:51.43
in different justice
for different people,
00:12:51.47\00:12:54.24
different rights
for different people.
00:12:54.27\00:12:56.47
And how that can be
resolved? I don't know.
00:12:56.50\00:13:00.08
And as you know, at the moment,
00:13:00.11\00:13:01.78
we are clearly in a very telling
00:13:01.81\00:13:04.51
apparent debate or...
00:13:04.55\00:13:06.61
Real debate but
apparent conflict
00:13:06.65\00:13:08.35
between gay rights
and religious rights.
00:13:08.38\00:13:10.95
Right.
00:13:10.99\00:13:12.65
And on one level,
I think, it's a fight
00:13:12.69\00:13:15.52
that shouldn't have been
joined by ostensible Christians
00:13:15.56\00:13:18.53
because Christian
charity should rule the day.
00:13:18.56\00:13:21.56
But when you run
those rights head to head,
00:13:21.60\00:13:23.47
someone is gonna lose.
00:13:23.50\00:13:25.40
And either way, I
don't think it's good
00:13:25.43\00:13:27.47
for the overall
application of human rights.
00:13:27.50\00:13:30.37
I think the courts,
00:13:30.41\00:13:32.34
you know, they've got
time to sort that out.
00:13:32.37\00:13:34.51
I think in time, these...
00:13:34.54\00:13:35.88
They've taken their time.
00:13:35.91\00:13:37.25
Well, but the Civil Rights
Act in 1964, when it was passed,
00:13:37.28\00:13:40.02
I mean
African-Americans were still...
00:13:40.05\00:13:42.58
The courts were still
sorting out, you know,
00:13:42.62\00:13:44.72
what are the
parameters of their rights
00:13:44.75\00:13:46.45
and in terms of equal justice.
00:13:46.49\00:13:49.46
And so it's taken a
long time to counterbalance.
00:13:49.49\00:13:53.36
Well, it says on title
seven, article seven it says,
00:13:53.40\00:13:58.37
"You can't be discriminated
against on the basis of sex."
00:13:58.40\00:14:02.60
Right now, we are
debating what gender...
00:14:02.64\00:14:05.51
We are debating what gender is?
00:14:05.54\00:14:07.24
It is very so further away
00:14:07.28\00:14:10.31
and I am not pro
00:14:10.35\00:14:12.25
to the whole gender
bender issue at all,
00:14:12.28\00:14:14.35
but legally it has created
a legal miasma in my view.
00:14:14.38\00:14:19.29
Oh, I agree.
00:14:19.32\00:14:20.66
That has to bleed
into other rights issues.
00:14:20.69\00:14:22.82
But it's a
challenge for the courts
00:14:22.86\00:14:24.39
and that's what they have to...
00:14:24.43\00:14:25.76
Is it, really? Yeah.
00:14:25.79\00:14:27.63
The courts are dealing with it,
00:14:27.66\00:14:29.00
but I think
it's society at large
00:14:29.03\00:14:31.10
that is
struggling with these issues
00:14:31.13\00:14:33.13
and doesn't
understand rights clearly.
00:14:33.17\00:14:35.07
Well, they didn't understand it
00:14:35.10\00:14:36.44
even after Brown v.
Board of Education, 1951,
00:14:36.47\00:14:39.44
and so even there,
00:14:39.47\00:14:41.04
I mean the Supreme
Court came up with the ruling
00:14:41.08\00:14:43.68
and the political powers,
00:14:43.71\00:14:45.05
be it the President
and the Federal Marshals,
00:14:45.08\00:14:48.28
had to do exact
justice for black people.
00:14:48.32\00:14:51.09
Let's take a break,
00:14:51.12\00:14:52.45
and we'll come
back with Brown v.
00:14:52.49\00:14:54.39
Board of Education,
right after the break.
00:14:54.42\00:14:56.09
Stay with us.
00:14:56.12\00:14:57.46