Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000396A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is the program that brings you news, views, updates, 00:31 and analysis of religious liberty 00:33 in the US and around the world. 00:35 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine, 00:39 and my guest on the program, 00:40 Greg Hamilton, 00:42 President of the Northwest Religious Liberty Association, 00:45 and a previous guest, 00:48 and one of the least talkative people I've ever had. 00:52 Son of Thunder. Yeah, yeah. 00:54 Now this program is premised on lots of dialogue, 00:57 and let's talk about something 00:58 that I think many people have heard talk of, 01:01 peaceful coexistence. 01:03 We want that. We don't want war, 01:05 but when we talk about religious liberty, 01:07 what is that often a stand-in for? 01:09 Well, the doctrine of peaceful coexistence 01:11 comes from the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, 01:13 which is 57 Muslim nations who believe that the only way 01:18 we're going to have world peace 01:19 is for there to be peaceful coexistence. 01:22 That is you have the right to peacefully coexist 01:25 with your faith 01:27 but you don't have a right 01:28 to evangelize someone else, okay? 01:30 That has gained a lot of attraction. 01:32 The previous Pope, Pope Benedict XVI 01:35 was very much against that doctrine, fought it. 01:38 In fact, that doctrine has been very alive 01:40 going clear back to Pope Paul VI. 01:42 It's been growing 01:43 in the interfaith community for many years, 01:46 and it's gaining more credibility 01:48 among world leaders, 01:50 especially our last President Barack Obama. 01:52 And the problem with that is this Pope, 01:55 Pope Francis I is very much 01:57 in tune with that sort of thinking. 01:59 And he very much believes 02:01 that the doctrine of peaceful coexistence 02:03 is the only way we're going to get to world peace. 02:06 But what that means 02:07 is the suppression of religious freedom 02:09 and in the end, 02:10 really, the suppression of evangelism as we know. 02:12 Well, that's what I was about to say. 02:14 This is an anti-evangelism mindset 02:15 because it presumes that each religious reservation 02:20 is a self-contained community, and you protect it, 02:23 and you don't try and steal from anyone else. 02:26 In the mission field when I was a young person, 02:28 they were the biggest fights in the South Pacific. 02:31 One mission would actually 02:32 sometimes come violently against the other 02:35 because they had stolen some of their members. 02:38 I'm very much attuned to the interfaith movements 02:41 as well as the Christian right with their ecumenical movement. 02:45 You know, I understand, I mean, 02:46 I'm not wedded to their movement, 02:47 so I'm just saying 02:49 I understand their reasonings for their movements. 02:52 And they're not exactly opposed to one another 02:55 but the right wing basically says, 02:57 "No, we must preserve the right of all peoples 03:00 to free speech and freedom of religion." 03:02 So they're very much more adhere 03:04 to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights 03:06 and article 18 and 19, 03:08 you know, to respect religious freedom 03:10 and free speech. 03:11 But the interfaith movement, 03:13 they want to put blasphemy law language 03:15 in articles 18 and 19 03:17 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 03:20 which would basically say, "Hey, you have a right 03:23 to peacefully coexist with your religion 03:25 but you don't have a right to evangelize somebody else." 03:27 Or even to make comments on someone else's religion. 03:30 And let's say you were to put all the religious leaders 03:32 in the world in one great big room, right, 03:35 and let's say you're the one who raised your hand and said, 03:38 "I would like to share my faith." 03:40 And the way it works is this, 03:41 in the interfaith community, 03:42 that if one person... 03:45 If everybody in the room agrees that you can share your faith 03:49 but one says, "No, I don't agree", 03:51 then you can't share your faith. 03:53 It becomes what's called collective censorship, 03:56 which is oppressive by nature. 03:59 And it actually comes from a... 04:03 It comes from the Indonesian model 04:05 and that's where most of Muslims live is in Indonesia 04:09 and it comes from their constitutional system 04:11 in Indonesia called Pancasila. 04:14 It's a five-point doctrine, 04:15 but it basically is summarized 04:17 by the doctrine of peaceful coexistence, 04:19 that is you have a right to peacefully coexist 04:21 but you don't have a right to evangelize another. 04:23 And this was their attempt... Attempt from the Quran... 04:25 This was their attempt for Islam 04:28 to embrace democratization, all right? 04:32 So there's been this sort of this wedding between 04:35 democratization and the interfaith movement 04:37 that suggests that the only way to world peace 04:39 is this doctrine of peaceful coexistence. 04:42 Now I know that we have emphasized 04:44 that in a goodwill nature as a church that yes, 04:47 we want peaceful coexistence as well, 04:50 but as I was talking to Ted Wilson the other day, 04:53 the General Conference President after... 04:55 Of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 04:56 after a banquet in Hollywood Florida, 04:59 near Fort Lauderdale at our 8th World Congress 05:02 on Religious freedom and Human rights. 05:04 He says, "Yeah, we know, 05:06 we're for goodwill and hopefully, 05:10 you know, peaceful coexistence in the world. 05:13 But in the end, we know it's not achievable, 05:16 we know it's not possible. 05:17 We know that the Lord's coming, 05:19 and we know there's going to be all-out wars, 05:21 and Armageddon, and everything else. 05:24 You know, there's going to be complete chaos on this earth." 05:26 So we know that that's not going happen 05:28 no matter how men strive to make that happen. 05:33 But was he comfortable with the peaceful coexistence? 05:39 Yeah, he was quite amazed, 05:42 I thought, that what the agenda was. 05:45 Regardless of what he or any other official 05:48 within our church or movement may say, 05:50 I think Adventism, like many other evangelical 05:55 or evangelistically inclined religions 05:58 or movements are concerned, 06:00 we have to keep reaching out and testing. 06:03 But we know that we're fighting 06:05 the trend, like in Russia at the moment, 06:08 in the name of anti-terrorism, 06:10 they're clamping down on religions reaching out 06:14 and publicly trying to persuade others. 06:16 Well, no... 06:18 And you can easily be portrayed as the Pope 06:20 in his speech to Congress said, 06:21 "As an extremist or a fundamentalist, 06:24 if you have this aggressive approach, 06:27 you know, it's an aggression they don't like, 06:28 can aggressive approach toward other peoples of other faiths." 06:31 Well, Pope Francis recently made an agreement 06:34 with Archbishop Kirill of Russia, 06:38 head of the Russian Orthodox Church, 06:39 and the agreement was finally after many years 06:43 of the Catholic Church saying, 06:44 "No, we will not agree to not evangelize in your country. 06:48 We will not abide by that." 06:50 Pope Francis has sacrificed that element. 06:53 In fact, it's preparing a way for a state visit to Russia 06:57 by Pope Francis I because he agreed 07:00 that the Catholic Church is not into evangelizing 07:04 the Russian Orthodox Church, okay, 07:07 to gain adherence from their church 07:08 or the old-fashioned term "Sheep stealing", okay? 07:12 So they've made that agreement, 07:13 that pact recently and they did that in Cuba together, 07:17 of all places, Guantanamo Bay to bring that about. 07:21 That was a year and a half ago, all right? 07:23 And so that's interesting, not only that, 07:26 but Pope Francis has also made a sacrifice 07:30 or compromise, so to speak, with the Catholic Church's 07:37 traditional position in China.. 07:38 I was about to mention that... 07:40 Regarding the appointment of bishops 07:44 and cardinals in China. 07:47 And so the Chinese government has always insisted 07:49 they appoint their own. 07:50 Well not insisted, they've done it. 07:51 They've done it. 07:53 And it has been a stand up. 07:54 And the Holy See, the Vatican has said, "No way, 07:57 we resist that, we will appoint our own 08:00 that are not recognized by the Chinese government." 08:04 But now Pope Francis has come along. 08:06 It was just about four weeks ago that he said no. 08:09 In fact, I was at the Council on Foreign Relations, 08:11 my annual Religion and Foreign Policy Workshop last summer, 08:15 and this was brought forward, 08:16 this announced by Richard Haas, 08:17 the President of the Council on Foreign Relations 08:20 that puts out the Foreign Affairs Journal. 08:24 And he appears often on Fareed Zakaria's GPS 08:27 on CNN on Sunday mornings. 08:29 And he said that there's been a rapprochement made 08:33 in which Pope Francis I 08:36 has said to the Chinese government, 08:39 "Yes, we approve of you going forward and..." 08:47 Choosing the bishops." "Choosing the bishops." 08:48 And so what's happened is this has prepared the way 08:52 for a state visit by the Pope to China, 08:55 the first time. 08:56 So we're seeing a lot of movements 08:58 take place that a lot of people aren't watching right now. 09:01 And it is true that Pope Francis 09:02 is facing a lot of opposition from Catholic conservatives, 09:08 even some liberals are getting on this case 09:09 regarding his lack of the way he's handled 09:12 the pedophilia and sex abuse cases among the priesthood 09:16 and bishops and so on. 09:18 So he's under a lot of fire right now. 09:21 But when he makes these state visits to China and Russia, 09:24 all of a sudden, the fire is going be gone. 09:26 It's going to prolong his papacy. 09:27 Yes, absolutely. 09:29 And you could see it is compromised 09:31 but you could also see it as a victory of sorts 09:34 that they have now ensconced themselves with the state, 09:37 their partners. 09:38 Yes, exactly. 09:39 And that's exactly what Rome wants. 09:41 And this Pope is pretty savvy. 09:42 I mean, in terms of understanding politics, 09:47 he's one of the most politically savvy Popes, 09:49 in fact, if not the political, 09:50 most politically savvy Pope in history. 09:53 And so a lot of people don't understand 09:55 their dynamic regarding the Roman Catholic Church 09:58 and what's happening now prophetically. 10:00 Well, he's focusing on power, not doctrine. 10:04 I think of... Would you agree with that? 10:07 There have been more doctrinaire in the past 10:10 even though they wanted the power. 10:11 But he's... 10:13 Doctrine takes second... 10:14 Remember, he's made any number of comments 10:16 about divorce and gays, and no surprise 10:19 that he's soft on the pedophilia 10:21 because very easy statements on the gay movement. 10:25 It fulfills the image of Revelation 17 10:27 where the woman, that is the false church, 10:30 is writing the beast, the beast representing the state. 10:33 And it's a vivid image in my opinion. 10:36 Yes. 10:37 So where's this going? 10:40 You started with something that's been troubling to me, 10:43 the coalition of Islamic states 10:45 really to head off any need to interact with Christianity 10:50 have advanced this idea that if you almost say 10:53 anything about Islam or the Prophet, 10:55 you'll be accused of blasphemy. 10:58 Well... 10:59 You know, early on when that first came, 11:01 most people sort of saw it for what it was, 11:03 but it's gaining some traction now. 11:05 They failed at the United Nations finally. 11:08 Resolution 16/18 was put together by, 11:11 cobble together with help from the Turkish government. 11:15 It was put forward by Hillary Clinton, 11:18 then Secretary of State. 11:20 And what it said basically was that Muslims 11:26 and all people of different people faith or seculars 11:29 would not condemn Christianity, or deface crucifixes, 11:35 or any images of Christ. 11:36 At the same time, they would not do the same 11:38 towards Mohammed or mock Mohammed 11:41 and that sort of thing. 11:42 So that was actually an international resolution, 11:44 16/18, that was decided. 11:47 And that was brought about to avoid the attempt 11:50 by the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, 11:52 those 57 Muslim nations, to amend articles 18 & 19, 11:56 the religious freedom and free speech clauses 11:58 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights 12:00 to basically amend it, 12:03 to put forward anti-blasphemy law language 12:05 which would have made punishable 12:08 or at least allowed any nation to punish by-law, 12:12 any attempt to evangelize another 12:13 or proselytize another person. 12:15 It's a straw man argument in a way, 12:17 very much like the free speech things 12:20 where religious freedom is like free speech. 12:23 It's only really proven when you allow, 12:26 under those rights, something that people 12:30 find insulting and troubling. 12:33 I wouldn't think it's a good thing to malign 12:37 Prophet Mohammed or Jesus, 12:38 I mean, that's just rude, crude, and abusive. 12:43 But you have to allow 12:44 but if you got religious freedom, 12:47 to say it has to be below some threshold. 12:49 People define thresholds differently. 12:51 Right. And even as you're talking about this, 12:54 it struck me but never hit me before, 12:56 Islam or Islamic countries where there's really not 13:00 a separation of churches there anyhow 13:01 can project this view internationally. 13:04 But within their own countries, 13:05 there's a massive war between Shiites, 13:07 and Sunnis, and Sufis, and all of the rest, 13:10 where horrible abuses are heaped on people 13:12 that differ slightly within their own religion. 13:14 But what seems to be converging a lot of people 13:16 seem to be missing is the fact that the secular 13:18 world likes this whole idea of doctrine 13:20 of peaceful coexistence. 13:22 Because what it does is, 13:24 you see, in their left-leaning Utopian mindset, 13:28 they believe that, "Yeah, that seems like a model 13:31 that we can live with in terms of world peace." 13:33 You can believe what you want, 13:35 just don't let me hear about it, 13:36 Exactly. Stay in your corner. 13:37 Yeah, and I think that's what we're looking at. 13:39 We're seeing more and more of a convergence 13:41 of thinking in this regard that if this means 13:45 that it can create world peace, we're all for it. 13:47 Yeah. Well, called syncretism on one level, isn't it? 13:51 Yeah, it is. 13:52 We'll be back after a short break. 13:54 Stay with us, and we'll continue this discussion. |
Revised 2018-08-02