Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program that
brings you news, views, updates,
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and analysis of
religious liberty
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in the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine,
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and my guest on the program,
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Greg Hamilton,
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President of the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association,
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and a previous guest,
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and one of the least
talkative people I've ever had.
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Son of Thunder. Yeah, yeah.
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Now this program is
premised on lots of dialogue,
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and let's talk about something
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that I think many
people have heard talk of,
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peaceful coexistence.
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We want that. We don't want war,
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but when we talk
about religious liberty,
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what is that
often a stand-in for?
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Well, the doctrine
of peaceful coexistence
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comes from the Organization
of Islamic Cooperation,
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which is 57 Muslim nations
who believe that the only way
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we're going to have world peace
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is for there to be
peaceful coexistence.
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That is you have the
right to peacefully coexist
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with your faith
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but you don't have a right
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to evangelize
someone else, okay?
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That has gained a
lot of attraction.
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The previous
Pope, Pope Benedict XVI
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was very much against
that doctrine, fought it.
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In fact, that
doctrine has been very alive
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going clear
back to Pope Paul VI.
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It's been growing
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in the interfaith
community for many years,
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and it's
gaining more credibility
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among world leaders,
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especially our last
President Barack Obama.
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And the problem
with that is this Pope,
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Pope Francis I is very much
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in tune with
that sort of thinking.
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And he very much believes
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that the doctrine
of peaceful coexistence
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is the only way we're
going to get to world peace.
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But what that means
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is the suppression
of religious freedom
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and in the end,
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really, the suppression
of evangelism as we know.
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Well, that's what
I was about to say.
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This is an
anti-evangelism mindset
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because it presumes that
each religious reservation
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is a self-contained
community, and you protect it,
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and you don't try and
steal from anyone else.
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In the mission field
when I was a young person,
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they were the biggest
fights in the South Pacific.
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One mission would actually
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sometimes come
violently against the other
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because they had
stolen some of their members.
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I'm very much attuned
to the interfaith movements
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as well as the Christian right
with their ecumenical movement.
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You know, I understand, I mean,
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I'm not wedded
to their movement,
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so I'm just saying
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I understand their
reasonings for their movements.
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And they're not
exactly opposed to one another
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but the right
wing basically says,
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"No, we must preserve
the right of all peoples
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to free speech and
freedom of religion."
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So they're very much more adhere
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to the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights
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and article 18 and 19,
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you know, to
respect religious freedom
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and free speech.
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But the interfaith movement,
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they want to put
blasphemy law language
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in articles 18 and 19
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of the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights,
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which would basically
say, "Hey, you have a right
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to peacefully
coexist with your religion
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but you don't have a right
to evangelize somebody else."
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Or even to make comments
on someone else's religion.
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And let's say you were to
put all the religious leaders
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in the world in one
great big room, right,
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and let's say you're the one
who raised your hand and said,
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"I would like
to share my faith."
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And the way it works is this,
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in the interfaith community,
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that if one person...
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If everybody in the room agrees
that you can share your faith
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but one says,
"No, I don't agree",
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then you can't share your faith.
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It becomes what's
called collective censorship,
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which is oppressive by nature.
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And it actually comes from a...
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It comes from
the Indonesian model
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and that's where most of
Muslims live is in Indonesia
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and it comes from
their constitutional system
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in Indonesia called Pancasila.
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It's a five-point doctrine,
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but it basically is summarized
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by the doctrine of
peaceful coexistence,
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that is you have a
right to peacefully coexist
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but you don't have a
right to evangelize another.
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And this was their attempt...
Attempt from the Quran...
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This was their attempt for Islam
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to embrace
democratization, all right?
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So there's been this
sort of this wedding between
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democratization and
the interfaith movement
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that suggests that the
only way to world peace
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is this doctrine of
peaceful coexistence.
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Now I know that
we have emphasized
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that in a goodwill
nature as a church that yes,
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we want peaceful
coexistence as well,
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but as I was talking to
Ted Wilson the other day,
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the General
Conference President after...
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Of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church.
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after a banquet
in Hollywood Florida,
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near Fort Lauderdale
at our 8th World Congress
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on Religious
freedom and Human rights.
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He says, "Yeah, we know,
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we're for
goodwill and hopefully,
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you know, peaceful
coexistence in the world.
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But in the end, we
know it's not achievable,
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we know it's not possible.
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We know that the Lord's coming,
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and we know there's
going to be all-out wars,
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and Armageddon,
and everything else.
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You know, there's going to be
complete chaos on this earth."
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So we know that
that's not going happen
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no matter how men
strive to make that happen.
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But was he comfortable
with the peaceful coexistence?
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Yeah, he was quite amazed,
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I thought, that
what the agenda was.
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Regardless of what
he or any other official
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within our church
or movement may say,
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I think Adventism,
like many other evangelical
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or evangelistically
inclined religions
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or movements are concerned,
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we have to keep
reaching out and testing.
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But we know that we're fighting
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the trend, like in
Russia at the moment,
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in the name of anti-terrorism,
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they're clamping down
on religions reaching out
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and publicly
trying to persuade others.
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Well, no...
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And you can easily
be portrayed as the Pope
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in his speech to Congress said,
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"As an extremist
or a fundamentalist,
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if you have this
aggressive approach,
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you know, it's an
aggression they don't like,
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can aggressive approach toward
other peoples of other faiths."
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Well, Pope Francis
recently made an agreement
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with Archbishop
Kirill of Russia,
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head of the
Russian Orthodox Church,
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and the agreement was
finally after many years
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of the Catholic Church saying,
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"No, we will not agree to
not evangelize in your country.
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We will not abide by that."
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Pope Francis has
sacrificed that element.
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In fact, it's preparing a
way for a state visit to Russia
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by Pope Francis
I because he agreed
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that the Catholic
Church is not into evangelizing
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the Russian
Orthodox Church, okay,
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to gain
adherence from their church
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or the old-fashioned
term "Sheep stealing", okay?
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So they've made that agreement,
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that pact recently and
they did that in Cuba together,
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of all places, Guantanamo
Bay to bring that about.
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That was a year and
a half ago, all right?
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And so that's
interesting, not only that,
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but Pope Francis has
also made a sacrifice
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or compromise, so to speak,
with the Catholic Church's
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traditional position in China..
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I was about to mention that...
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Regarding the
appointment of bishops
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and cardinals in China.
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And so the Chinese
government has always insisted
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they appoint their own.
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Well not
insisted, they've done it.
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They've done it.
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And it has been a stand up.
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And the Holy See, the
Vatican has said, "No way,
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we resist that, we
will appoint our own
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that are not recognized
by the Chinese government."
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But now Pope
Francis has come along.
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It was just about four
weeks ago that he said no.
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In fact, I was at the
Council on Foreign Relations,
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my annual Religion and Foreign
Policy Workshop last summer,
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and this was brought forward,
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this announced by Richard Haas,
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the President of the
Council on Foreign Relations
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that puts out the
Foreign Affairs Journal.
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And he appears often
on Fareed Zakaria's GPS
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on CNN on Sunday mornings.
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And he said that there's
been a rapprochement made
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in which Pope Francis I
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has said to the
Chinese government,
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"Yes, we approve of
you going forward and..."
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Choosing the bishops."
"Choosing the bishops."
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And so what's happened
is this has prepared the way
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for a state visit
by the Pope to China,
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the first time.
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So we're seeing
a lot of movements
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take place that a lot of people
aren't watching right now.
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And it is true that Pope Francis
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is facing a lot of opposition
from Catholic conservatives,
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even some liberals
are getting on this case
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regarding his lack
of the way he's handled
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the pedophilia and sex
abuse cases among the priesthood
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and bishops and so on.
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So he's under a
lot of fire right now.
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But when he makes these state
visits to China and Russia,
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all of a sudden, the
fire is going be gone.
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It's going to
prolong his papacy.
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Yes, absolutely.
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And you could
see it is compromised
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but you could also see
it as a victory of sorts
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that they have now ensconced
themselves with the state,
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their partners.
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Yes, exactly.
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And that's
exactly what Rome wants.
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And this Pope is pretty savvy.
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I mean, in terms of
understanding politics,
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he's one of the most
politically savvy Popes,
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in fact, if not the political,
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most politically
savvy Pope in history.
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And so a lot of
people don't understand
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their dynamic regarding
the Roman Catholic Church
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and what's
happening now prophetically.
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Well, he's focusing
on power, not doctrine.
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I think of... Would
you agree with that?
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There have been more
doctrinaire in the past
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even though they
wanted the power.
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But he's...
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Doctrine takes second...
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Remember, he's made
any number of comments
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about divorce and
gays, and no surprise
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that he's soft on the pedophilia
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because very easy
statements on the gay movement.
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It fulfills the
image of Revelation 17
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where the woman,
that is the false church,
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is writing the beast, the
beast representing the state.
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And it's a vivid
image in my opinion.
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Yes.
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So where's this going?
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You started with something
that's been troubling to me,
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the coalition of Islamic states
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really to head off any need
to interact with Christianity
00:10:45.71\00:10:50.55
have advanced this
idea that if you almost say
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anything about
Islam or the Prophet,
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you'll be accused of blasphemy.
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Well...
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You know, early on
when that first came,
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most people sort of
saw it for what it was,
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but it's gaining
some traction now.
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They failed at the
United Nations finally.
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Resolution 16/18
was put together by,
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cobble together with help
from the Turkish government.
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It was put forward
by Hillary Clinton,
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then Secretary of State.
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And what it said
basically was that Muslims
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and all people of different
people faith or seculars
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would not condemn Christianity,
or deface crucifixes,
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or any images of Christ.
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At the same time,
they would not do the same
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towards
Mohammed or mock Mohammed
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and that sort of thing.
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So that was actually an
international resolution,
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16/18, that was decided.
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And that was brought
about to avoid the attempt
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by the Organization
of Islamic Cooperation,
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those 57 Muslim nations,
to amend articles 18 & 19,
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the religious freedom
and free speech clauses
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of the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights
00:11:58.21\00:12:00.15
to basically amend it,
00:12:00.18\00:12:03.25
to put forward
anti-blasphemy law language
00:12:03.28\00:12:05.62
which would have made punishable
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or at least allowed any
nation to punish by-law,
00:12:08.76\00:12:11.99
any attempt to
evangelize another
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or proselytize another person.
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It's a straw man
argument in a way,
00:12:15.76\00:12:17.63
very much like
the free speech things
00:12:17.67\00:12:20.14
where religious
freedom is like free speech.
00:12:20.17\00:12:23.24
It's only really
proven when you allow,
00:12:23.27\00:12:26.78
under those rights,
something that people
00:12:26.81\00:12:29.98
find insulting and troubling.
00:12:30.01\00:12:33.62
I wouldn't think it's
a good thing to malign
00:12:33.65\00:12:37.09
Prophet Mohammed or Jesus,
00:12:37.12\00:12:38.92
I mean, that's just
rude, crude, and abusive.
00:12:38.95\00:12:43.59
But you have to allow
00:12:43.63\00:12:44.96
but if you got
religious freedom,
00:12:44.99\00:12:47.16
to say it has to be
below some threshold.
00:12:47.20\00:12:49.16
People define
thresholds differently.
00:12:49.20\00:12:51.27
Right. And even as
you're talking about this,
00:12:51.30\00:12:54.27
it struck me but
never hit me before,
00:12:54.30\00:12:56.40
Islam or Islamic countries
where there's really not
00:12:56.44\00:13:00.14
a separation of
churches there anyhow
00:13:00.18\00:13:01.91
can project this
view internationally.
00:13:01.94\00:13:03.98
But within their own countries,
00:13:04.01\00:13:05.35
there's a massive
war between Shiites,
00:13:05.38\00:13:07.32
and Sunnis, and
Sufis, and all of the rest,
00:13:07.35\00:13:10.02
where horrible
abuses are heaped on people
00:13:10.05\00:13:12.42
that differ slightly
within their own religion.
00:13:12.45\00:13:14.59
But what seems to be
converging a lot of people
00:13:14.62\00:13:16.89
seem to be missing is
the fact that the secular
00:13:16.93\00:13:18.86
world likes this
whole idea of doctrine
00:13:18.89\00:13:20.90
of peaceful coexistence.
00:13:20.93\00:13:22.43
Because what it does is,
00:13:22.46\00:13:24.57
you see, in their
left-leaning Utopian mindset,
00:13:24.60\00:13:28.77
they believe that,
"Yeah, that seems like a model
00:13:28.80\00:13:31.64
that we can live with
in terms of world peace."
00:13:31.67\00:13:33.71
You can believe what you want,
00:13:33.74\00:13:35.08
just don't let me hear about it,
00:13:35.11\00:13:36.44
Exactly. Stay in your corner.
00:13:36.48\00:13:37.81
Yeah, and I think
that's what we're looking at.
00:13:37.85\00:13:39.21
We're seeing more
and more of a convergence
00:13:39.25\00:13:41.45
of thinking in this
regard that if this means
00:13:41.48\00:13:45.55
that it can create
world peace, we're all for it.
00:13:45.59\00:13:47.49
Yeah. Well, called syncretism
on one level, isn't it?
00:13:47.52\00:13:50.99
Yeah, it is.
00:13:51.03\00:13:52.69
We'll be back
after a short break.
00:13:52.73\00:13:54.30
Stay with us, and we'll
continue this discussion.
00:13:54.33\00:13:56.50