Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000395A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:29 This is the program that brings you 00:31 up-to-date news, views, and discussion, and insight 00:34 into religious liberty events in the US 00:37 and around the world. 00:38 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:41 And my guest on this program, 00:43 repeat performance, Greg Hamilton, 00:46 President of the Northwest Religious Liberty Association. 00:49 Let's set something really contemporary. 00:53 People may not always recognize it, 00:55 but there's an incredible alliance 00:57 between what I would 00:59 call the politically active religious right 01:01 and this present administration. 01:04 And they have an agenda, 01:05 and they found an accomplice in the president 01:09 and his administration. 01:12 And part of what or a big part of what motivates them 01:15 is their view 01:17 that the United States is a Christian nation. 01:21 And, of course, you and I can discuss that, 01:23 where do they get this from? 01:24 Is it the constitution 01:25 or is it just the social construct? 01:28 But they really believe it. 01:31 It reminds me of something that occurred to me. 01:34 Recently, I was at the University 01:35 of Idaho Law School in Moscow, Idaho. 01:37 And a group of students filed in, 01:39 about 50 of them, and in the back row, 01:42 I noticed there are some students 01:43 that came in with some placards. 01:44 I come to find out afterwards, 01:46 they were from the atheist student society there, 01:50 and they had placards 01:51 that had some very irreverent statements, like, 01:53 "Christian nation, my blank." 01:56 And it was interesting 01:57 because at the end of the lecture, 01:59 they said, "Wow, we cannot believe..." 02:00 They didn't put their placards up? 02:02 They couldn't believe that an evangelical 02:05 could believe in the separation of church and state, 02:08 and that a Christian nation by-law was absolutely absurd. 02:12 They could not believe that somebody, an evangelical, 02:15 could actually believe that and speak up. 02:16 And they were not imagining that 02:18 because present attorney general, 02:22 about the time, when he was appointed, 02:23 went public and said he doesn't believe 02:25 in the separation of church and state. 02:26 Oh, yes. 02:27 It's an amazing statement. 02:29 And many of the religious right, 02:30 I've heard them say, that there's no such thing 02:32 as the separation of church and state. 02:33 And they say openly, "This is a Christian nation." 02:37 Well, that's wishful thinking in my view, 02:39 and I think you'll agree 02:40 because there's nothing to prove that 02:42 except their self-divine construct. 02:46 Well, absolutely. 02:48 In fact, the whole idea of a Christian nation 02:51 is really born out of Puritanism, 02:53 and it's Puritanism run amok. 02:56 The constitution founders ran like crazy away 02:58 from the Puritan founding model. 03:00 Yeah. 03:01 They wanted a system in which no church, 03:04 no religious authority control the government, 03:06 and in likewise, 03:08 that the government stayed out of the church 03:10 and religious affairs. 03:11 They wanted both... 03:13 Government, in other words, 03:15 must be neutral towards religion 03:16 and religious expression, meaning, 03:19 religion should thrive as freely as possible 03:21 but at the same time, it could not govern the nation. 03:27 And that's a fine line, 03:29 but it's an important line to hold. 03:31 Well, it's dangerous when you cross it. 03:33 But what strikes me is the supreme irony. 03:36 That concept began back 03:38 when the United States was overwhelmingly 03:42 a Protestant Christian community 03:45 or society, right? 03:47 That's not true anymore. 03:48 No. 03:49 I don't know the exact figures off the top of my head, 03:52 but those that openly identify 03:55 themselves or as practicing Christians 03:57 are a minority and there are many other... 03:59 There were 30 million Muslims and so on, plus, 04:03 the actions of our society 04:05 through its popular culture, and that hardly 04:07 is a representative of Christianity. 04:09 Well, Pew survey... 04:10 I could wish it was so. Yeah. 04:12 Pew Charitable Trusts 04:13 on religion and public life put out a survey, 04:15 and they found in their studies that youth and young adults 04:20 from the ages of 15 clear up to 40, 04:24 very much or very supportive with the constitutional 04:26 separation of church and state 04:27 which by the way has made a huge comeback 04:29 in public life because in the '70s and '80s 04:32 even the early '90s 04:34 as many as 70% were very much against 04:37 the separation of church and state, 04:38 all of sudden it swung completely back 04:40 where most of the society, 04:42 vast majority believes very firmly 04:44 in the constitutional separation of church and state. 04:46 And it's very much against this mingling of, 04:51 you know, church and state 04:52 when it comes to making the Christian, 04:55 making our nation Christian 04:57 through Christian morals by-law, 04:59 they're very much against that. 05:01 And there's a certain... 05:02 It's your interpretation. 05:03 But mostly, Protestant religious right 05:06 are opposed to the separation of church and state, right? 05:08 Yes. 05:09 But the Roman Catholic Church is very vocal 05:12 and adamant in its support 05:14 of the separation of church and state. 05:16 Well... 05:17 So what's going on here? 05:19 Well, and why do they say that? 05:20 I mean... 05:22 Well, that's what I want you to tell me. 05:23 I have some theories. 05:24 Well, yeah, they're for that because the Roman system 05:30 has their own ecclesiastical law, 05:34 so to speak, they have their own internal system 05:37 that is very attached to the Vatican, the Holy See, 05:43 the church itself mainly, 05:44 in terms of the way it governs itself. 05:47 And so they don't want any inclusion of that. 05:49 In fact, they view the Church 05:50 as really sovereign even over the state 05:53 but at the same time... 05:55 Well, the doctrine of Subsidiarity states that. 05:56 Yes. 05:58 Yes, but at the same, they want to make sure 06:01 in today's civil society especially, 06:03 in the United States of America 06:05 that it remains separate 06:06 because they feel that they are more free to do 06:09 what they need to do. 06:10 Right. Yeah, good outline. 06:12 But it's an interesting dynamic. 06:13 That makes it more autonomous. 06:15 It's the world that's turned on its head. 06:16 Originally, you know, 06:20 we explained in other programs, some part of the discussions 06:22 that led to the First Amendment and the separation, 06:25 but originally that was used in a cudgel like fashion 06:31 against the Roman Catholic Church 06:32 because it was designed to exclude 06:37 popery from this world. 06:38 But the problem is the Roman Catholic Church, 06:41 in terms of its leadership, 06:42 including the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, 06:45 they believe in only a one directional wall. 06:48 In fact, their views are very similar 06:50 to the Christian right in the sense that they believe 06:53 that the state or the government 06:55 should keep its hands off the church, 06:57 and their affairs, but at the same time, 06:59 that the church has a right to essentially inspire 07:03 and direct the affairs of state. 07:05 Sure, when push comes to shove. 07:06 Yes. 07:08 And it's partly human nature and human nature projected 07:11 through church organizations, they want some control. 07:14 I think one of the things we see 07:16 as our country becomes more secular, 07:19 we're seeing more of a desperation if you will, 07:22 a Hail Mary if you will 07:24 on the part of the Christian right 07:25 and even Catholic conservatives to basically fight back 07:31 against what they believe is secularism run amok, 07:34 such as same-sex marriage, for example. 07:37 And they want desperately 07:40 to restructure America, and in other words, 07:44 they see this as their last chance 07:46 really to... 07:48 Even though they're a minority, 07:50 they view themselves as representing 07:52 the majority will of the country, 07:54 even though they are really in reality a minority. 07:57 They want to seize the opportunity 08:02 to take these issues for what they are, 08:04 and rally their base, 08:06 and to cry out against same-sex marriage 08:08 and other things 08:10 that they don't like, like, abortion 08:12 to somehow take this opportunity 08:15 to seize the country back. 08:16 I think you and I agree from a purely Christian 08:19 point of morality, 08:21 abortion is very suspect, it's opposing the life-giver, 08:25 and the whole gay lifestyle is certainly condemned 08:29 as a position and as a moral position 08:34 that's clearly condemned in the Bible. 08:36 The argument is whether we will use 08:40 and try to get the power of the state 08:42 to enforce religious dictate. 08:43 But you know how they do that, that's very simple. 08:45 A lot of people don't understand 08:46 this political science dynamic. 08:49 You see in a democratic system 08:50 and democratic republic that we have, 08:53 what you see is happening. 08:55 If you get enough of the idea of the Christian right is, 08:58 if you get enough representatives in office 09:02 to put forward your views, 09:03 you can still be the minority in the country. 09:05 Right. 09:06 And the vast majority will have to follow the dictates of those 09:09 so-called representatives in government. 09:10 But on the certain things, 09:12 and this was what the founders 09:13 and framers were concerned about, 09:15 on certain things, even if it's the majority, 09:17 you still shouldn't push them through. 09:19 But they're counting on the majority 09:21 to be apathetic. 09:22 And that's what they're hoping for... 09:23 And the majority are apathetic. 09:26 I think one of the weaknesses, but I know the reason for it, 09:29 is that so few of the voters 09:33 do actually vote in the United States. 09:35 So the best of times, 09:36 you've got a minority that are setting public policy. 09:40 Well, most people don't realize 09:41 that when it comes to voting rolls, 09:43 Democrats outnumber Republicans, 09:44 conservative Republicans, by almost three to one, 09:47 in terms of voting roles 09:48 that if Democrats actually got all their voters out, 09:51 Republicans would never win an election. 09:52 That's a fact. 09:54 Well, that might not be good. 09:55 No, exactly. But they don't. 09:56 And so what happens is... 09:58 I mean, that's a partisan issue, 09:59 but it's... 10:00 One of the things that keeps voters 10:02 from getting out to vote is, 10:03 I don't know if you study propaganda tactics 10:05 by both the right and left, 10:07 but clearly, the effort to suppress voter mood, 10:11 in other words, to increase as much apathy 10:14 as possible actually causes Democrats 10:17 to lose a lot of elections. 10:20 In other words, if you can suppress the vote, 10:23 you have a chance of winning. 10:24 And also bad weather causes the Christian right 10:30 to get their people in the office, 10:32 and that's also been proven by a number of studies. 10:34 Well, I mean, these are factors 10:35 that'll play in any election in any country, 10:38 but they used here as in other places. 10:40 Right. It's not just... 10:42 Their tactics that are... 10:44 People purely voting for what they want, 10:45 there are people that influence one way or other. 10:48 Now don't misunderstand me because I have real problems 10:51 with the Democratic Party in many respects, okay? 10:54 My problem is that, 10:57 I always go for those who champion 10:59 the constitutional separation of church and state. 11:01 Well, let's keep it on that issue. 11:03 Yes. Yes. 11:05 And we should be the friend of any faction, 11:07 party, or whatever that's promoting 11:10 the constitution and religious freedom, 11:12 but we can't afford to be partisan 11:14 and supporting... 11:15 Right. 11:17 The religious right have encouraged this that 11:18 because, say, conservatives were against 11:20 to Bush and, therefore, you're with them regardless 11:23 of what they do. 11:24 I mean, that's nonsensical but that's how it's devolving. 11:27 And you may be an independent, 11:28 but I'm a registered Republican, and... 11:30 And you don't need to tell it on this program. 11:32 I know, but I'm going. But I'm a moderate Republican. 11:35 And I say that because I believe that, 11:38 sometimes, our country has lost its way 11:43 in terms of really understanding its values, 11:46 in terms of understanding 11:48 what the constitution represents. 11:51 It represents a democratic republican system, 11:53 a representative system in which by there is a check 11:57 and balance, both on church and state 12:00 but also on the people themselves, 12:01 we've discussed this in past programs. 12:03 We the people was meant to champion 12:08 the majority will of the people, 12:10 but yet the Bill of Rights were put there to do what? 12:12 To protect minorities against the abuse of the majority. 12:17 Right. 12:18 And even Supreme Court justices have made it very clear that, 12:22 however, sometimes even the will of the minority 12:25 can abuse the will of the majority 12:27 in a unjust way. 12:28 And so they have to constantly check 12:31 and balance this sort of thing. 12:32 So when we're talking about a Christian nation here, 12:34 we have to look at it in terms of what is best for the nation, 12:41 is it best for our nation 12:42 to follow down a fundamentalist road 12:45 that determines that certain actions 12:48 and certain lifestyles are not allowable? 12:51 If it endangers the good of the whole country, 12:55 then yes, it does. 12:56 And that's the big debate. 12:58 Does same-sex marriage endanger the future of this country? 13:03 And some would argue, yes, and many argue, no. 13:06 Well, it's certainly a huge social experiment, 13:08 I've written about that before. 13:10 It's a mess of social experiment 13:12 with implications economic, public health, 13:18 I mean, on every area of that society functions, 13:20 it has the potential to spin it out of control 13:23 in ways that nobody could imagine, 13:25 maybe good direction but just as equally very bad. 13:29 I mean, good society, 13:31 there's no moral good from it that I can see. 13:33 So we're at a crossroads, 13:35 but I believe one of the reasons 13:39 that this Christian nation thing is rising up, like, 13:42 it's going to mix a metaphor it's like an albatross, 13:45 but it's rising up like a monolith 13:47 in 2001 Space Odyssey is that the US has never really 13:54 had what other or world countries have, 13:57 a unifying point for patriotism 14:01 because usually it's ethnic, often religious, 14:05 often a huge like exodus. 14:08 And we're melting by it. 14:09 Yes, right. We're melting. 14:11 So basically in the US mythology has substituted 14:15 for those old will things, 14:17 and one of the mythologies is a Christian nation idea. 14:20 We're like Israel coming out of Egypt. 14:23 Right. 14:24 Where it's just to the point of ridiculousness 14:25 apart from the constitution denying it 14:28 is that it's now a far more population 14:32 and that's just inaccurate to describe 14:34 the people in the way they function. 14:35 Yeah. 14:37 We'll take a break 14:38 and come back to finish our discussion. 14:39 Please, stay with us. |
Revised 2018-08-02