Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the
program that brings you
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up-to-date news, views,
and discussion, and insight
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into religious
liberty events in the US
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and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on this program,
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repeat
performance, Greg Hamilton,
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President of the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association.
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Let's set something
really contemporary.
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People may not
always recognize it,
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but there's an
incredible alliance
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between what I would
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call the politically
active religious right
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and this present administration.
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And they have an agenda,
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and they found an
accomplice in the president
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and his administration.
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And part of what or a big
part of what motivates them
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is their view
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that the United
States is a Christian nation.
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And, of course, you
and I can discuss that,
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where do they get this from?
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Is it the constitution
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or is it just
the social construct?
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But they really believe it.
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It reminds me of
something that occurred to me.
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Recently, I was
at the University
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of Idaho Law
School in Moscow, Idaho.
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And a group of
students filed in,
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about 50 of them,
and in the back row,
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I noticed there
are some students
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that came in with some placards.
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I come to find out afterwards,
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they were from the
atheist student society there,
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and they had placards
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that had some very
irreverent statements, like,
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"Christian nation, my blank."
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And it was interesting
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because at the
end of the lecture,
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they said, "Wow,
we cannot believe..."
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They didn't put
their placards up?
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They couldn't
believe that an evangelical
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could believe in the
separation of church and state,
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and that a Christian nation
by-law was absolutely absurd.
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They could not believe
that somebody, an evangelical,
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could actually
believe that and speak up.
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And they were not imagining that
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because present
attorney general,
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about the time,
when he was appointed,
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went public and
said he doesn't believe
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in the separation
of church and state.
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Oh, yes.
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It's an amazing statement.
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And many of the religious right,
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I've heard them say,
that there's no such thing
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as the separation
of church and state.
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And they say openly,
"This is a Christian nation."
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Well, that's
wishful thinking in my view,
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and I think you'll agree
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because there's
nothing to prove that
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except their
self-divine construct.
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Well, absolutely.
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In fact, the whole
idea of a Christian nation
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is really born
out of Puritanism,
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and it's Puritanism run amok.
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The constitution
founders ran like crazy away
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from the Puritan founding model.
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Yeah.
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They wanted a
system in which no church,
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no religious authority
control the government,
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and in likewise,
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that the government
stayed out of the church
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and religious affairs.
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They wanted both...
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Government, in other words,
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must be neutral towards religion
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and religious
expression, meaning,
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religion should
thrive as freely as possible
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but at the same time, it
could not govern the nation.
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And that's a fine line,
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but it's an
important line to hold.
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Well, it's
dangerous when you cross it.
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But what strikes me
is the supreme irony.
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That concept began back
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when the United
States was overwhelmingly
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a Protestant Christian community
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or society, right?
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That's not true anymore.
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No.
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I don't know the exact
figures off the top of my head,
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but those that openly identify
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themselves or as
practicing Christians
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are a minority and
there are many other...
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There were 30 million
Muslims and so on, plus,
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the actions of our society
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through its popular
culture, and that hardly
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is a
representative of Christianity.
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Well, Pew survey...
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I could wish it was so. Yeah.
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Pew Charitable Trusts
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on religion and
public life put out a survey,
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and they found in their studies
that youth and young adults
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from the ages of
15 clear up to 40,
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very much or very supportive
with the constitutional
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separation of church and state
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which by the way
has made a huge comeback
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in public life
because in the '70s and '80s
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even the early '90s
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as many as 70%
were very much against
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the separation
of church and state,
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all of sudden it
swung completely back
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where most of the society,
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vast majority
believes very firmly
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in the constitutional
separation of church and state.
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And it's very much
against this mingling of,
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you know, church and state
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when it comes to
making the Christian,
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making our nation Christian
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through Christian morals by-law,
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they're very much against that.
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And there's a certain...
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It's your interpretation.
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But mostly,
Protestant religious right
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are opposed to the separation
of church and state, right?
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Yes.
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But the Roman
Catholic Church is very vocal
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and adamant in its support
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of the separation
of church and state.
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Well...
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So what's going on here?
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Well, and why do they say that?
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I mean...
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Well, that's what I
want you to tell me.
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I have some theories.
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Well, yeah, they're for
that because the Roman system
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has their own
ecclesiastical law,
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so to speak, they have
their own internal system
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that is very attached to
the Vatican, the Holy See,
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the church itself mainly,
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in terms of the
way it governs itself.
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And so they don't
want any inclusion of that.
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In fact, they view the Church
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as really
sovereign even over the state
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but at the same time...
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Well, the doctrine of
Subsidiarity states that.
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Yes.
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Yes, but at the same,
they want to make sure
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in today's civil
society especially,
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in the United States of America
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that it remains separate
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because they feel that
they are more free to do
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what they need to do.
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Right. Yeah, good outline.
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But it's an interesting dynamic.
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That makes it more autonomous.
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It's the world
that's turned on its head.
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Originally, you know,
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we explained in other programs,
some part of the discussions
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that led to the First
Amendment and the separation,
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but originally that was
used in a cudgel like fashion
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against the
Roman Catholic Church
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because it was
designed to exclude
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popery from this world.
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But the problem is
the Roman Catholic Church,
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in terms of its leadership,
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including the US
Conference of Catholic Bishops,
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they believe in only
a one directional wall.
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In fact, their
views are very similar
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to the Christian right in
the sense that they believe
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that the state or the government
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should keep its
hands off the church,
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and their affairs,
but at the same time,
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that the church has a
right to essentially inspire
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and direct the affairs of state.
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Sure, when push comes to shove.
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Yes.
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And it's partly human nature
and human nature projected
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through church organizations,
they want some control.
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I think one of the things we see
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as our country
becomes more secular,
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we're seeing more of a
desperation if you will,
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a Hail Mary if you will
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on the part of
the Christian right
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and even Catholic conservatives
to basically fight back
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against what they
believe is secularism run amok,
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such as same-sex
marriage, for example.
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And they want desperately
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to restructure
America, and in other words,
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they see this as
their last chance
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really to...
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Even though they're a minority,
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they view
themselves as representing
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the majority
will of the country,
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even though they are
really in reality a minority.
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They want to
seize the opportunity
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to take these
issues for what they are,
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and rally their base,
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and to cry out
against same-sex marriage
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and other things
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that they don't
like, like, abortion
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to somehow take this opportunity
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to seize the country back.
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I think you and I
agree from a purely Christian
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point of morality,
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abortion is very suspect,
it's opposing the life-giver,
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and the whole gay
lifestyle is certainly condemned
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as a position and
as a moral position
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that's clearly
condemned in the Bible.
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The argument is
whether we will use
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and try to get
the power of the state
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to enforce religious dictate.
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But you know how they do
that, that's very simple.
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A lot of people don't understand
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this political science dynamic.
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You see in a democratic system
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and democratic
republic that we have,
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what you see is happening.
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If you get enough of the
idea of the Christian right is,
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if you get enough
representatives in office
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to put forward your views,
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you can still be the
minority in the country.
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Right.
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And the vast majority will have
to follow the dictates of those
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so-called
representatives in government.
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But on the certain things,
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and this was what the founders
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and framers
were concerned about,
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on certain things,
even if it's the majority,
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you still
shouldn't push them through.
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But they're
counting on the majority
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to be apathetic.
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And that's what
they're hoping for...
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And the majority are apathetic.
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I think one of the weaknesses,
but I know the reason for it,
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is that so few of the voters
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do actually vote
in the United States.
00:09:33.80\00:09:35.34
So the best of times,
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you've got a minority
that are setting public policy.
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Well, most people don't realize
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that when it
comes to voting rolls,
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Democrats outnumber Republicans,
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conservative Republicans,
by almost three to one,
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in terms of voting roles
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that if Democrats actually
got all their voters out,
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Republicans would
never win an election.
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That's a fact.
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Well, that might not be good.
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No, exactly. But they don't.
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And so what happens is...
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I mean, that's a partisan issue,
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but it's...
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One of the
things that keeps voters
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from getting out to vote is,
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I don't know if you
study propaganda tactics
00:10:03.70\00:10:05.63
by both the right and left,
00:10:05.67\00:10:07.20
but clearly, the
effort to suppress voter mood,
00:10:07.24\00:10:11.94
in other words, to
increase as much apathy
00:10:11.97\00:10:14.31
as possible
actually causes Democrats
00:10:14.34\00:10:17.45
to lose a lot of elections.
00:10:17.48\00:10:20.72
In other words, if
you can suppress the vote,
00:10:20.75\00:10:23.32
you have a chance of winning.
00:10:23.35\00:10:24.85
And also bad weather
causes the Christian right
00:10:24.89\00:10:30.56
to get their
people in the office,
00:10:30.59\00:10:32.09
and that's also been
proven by a number of studies.
00:10:32.13\00:10:34.56
Well, I mean, these are factors
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that'll play in any
election in any country,
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but they used here
as in other places.
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Right. It's not just...
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Their tactics that are...
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People purely
voting for what they want,
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there are people that
influence one way or other.
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Now don't misunderstand me
because I have real problems
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with the Democratic
Party in many respects, okay?
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My problem is that,
00:10:54.95\00:10:57.72
I always go for
those who champion
00:10:57.75\00:10:59.79
the constitutional
separation of church and state.
00:10:59.82\00:11:01.76
Well, let's keep
it on that issue.
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Yes. Yes.
00:11:03.49\00:11:05.13
And we should be the
friend of any faction,
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party, or
whatever that's promoting
00:11:07.96\00:11:10.17
the constitution
and religious freedom,
00:11:10.20\00:11:12.63
but we can't
afford to be partisan
00:11:12.67\00:11:14.47
and supporting...
00:11:14.50\00:11:15.84
Right.
00:11:15.87\00:11:17.21
The religious right
have encouraged this that
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because, say,
conservatives were against
00:11:18.61\00:11:20.84
to Bush and, therefore,
you're with them regardless
00:11:20.88\00:11:23.01
of what they do.
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I mean, that's nonsensical
but that's how it's devolving.
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And you may be an independent,
00:11:27.35\00:11:28.68
but I'm a
registered Republican, and...
00:11:28.72\00:11:30.59
And you don't need to
tell it on this program.
00:11:30.62\00:11:32.05
I know, but I'm going.
But I'm a moderate Republican.
00:11:32.09\00:11:35.56
And I say that
because I believe that,
00:11:35.59\00:11:38.56
sometimes, our
country has lost its way
00:11:38.59\00:11:43.16
in terms of really
understanding its values,
00:11:43.20\00:11:46.33
in terms of understanding
00:11:46.37\00:11:48.17
what the
constitution represents.
00:11:48.20\00:11:51.04
It represents a
democratic republican system,
00:11:51.07\00:11:53.51
a representative system
in which by there is a check
00:11:53.54\00:11:56.98
and balance, both
on church and state
00:11:57.01\00:12:00.12
but also on the
people themselves,
00:12:00.15\00:12:01.55
we've discussed
this in past programs.
00:12:01.58\00:12:03.52
We the people
was meant to champion
00:12:03.55\00:12:08.32
the majority will of the people,
00:12:08.36\00:12:10.03
but yet the Bill of Rights
were put there to do what?
00:12:10.06\00:12:12.96
To protect minorities against
the abuse of the majority.
00:12:12.99\00:12:17.17
Right.
00:12:17.20\00:12:18.73
And even Supreme Court justices
have made it very clear that,
00:12:18.77\00:12:22.24
however, sometimes even
the will of the minority
00:12:22.27\00:12:25.17
can abuse the
will of the majority
00:12:25.21\00:12:26.98
in a unjust way.
00:12:27.01\00:12:28.54
And so they have
to constantly check
00:12:28.58\00:12:31.31
and balance this sort of thing.
00:12:31.35\00:12:32.68
So when we're talking
about a Christian nation here,
00:12:32.71\00:12:34.88
we have to look at it in terms
of what is best for the nation,
00:12:34.92\00:12:41.09
is it best for our nation
00:12:41.12\00:12:42.86
to follow down a
fundamentalist road
00:12:42.89\00:12:45.49
that determines
that certain actions
00:12:45.53\00:12:48.43
and certain
lifestyles are not allowable?
00:12:48.46\00:12:51.30
If it endangers the
good of the whole country,
00:12:51.33\00:12:55.04
then yes, it does.
00:12:55.07\00:12:56.64
And that's the big debate.
00:12:56.67\00:12:58.27
Does same-sex marriage endanger
the future of this country?
00:12:58.31\00:13:03.71
And some would argue,
yes, and many argue, no.
00:13:03.75\00:13:06.55
Well, it's certainly a
huge social experiment,
00:13:06.58\00:13:08.52
I've written about that before.
00:13:08.55\00:13:10.95
It's a mess of social experiment
00:13:10.99\00:13:12.72
with implications
economic, public health,
00:13:12.75\00:13:18.06
I mean, on every area
of that society functions,
00:13:18.09\00:13:20.60
it has the potential
to spin it out of control
00:13:20.63\00:13:23.80
in ways that
nobody could imagine,
00:13:23.83\00:13:25.53
maybe good direction but
just as equally very bad.
00:13:25.57\00:13:29.94
I mean, good society,
00:13:29.97\00:13:31.31
there's no moral good
from it that I can see.
00:13:31.34\00:13:33.91
So we're at a crossroads,
00:13:33.94\00:13:35.81
but I believe one of the reasons
00:13:35.84\00:13:39.05
that this Christian
nation thing is rising up, like,
00:13:39.08\00:13:42.52
it's going to mix a
metaphor it's like an albatross,
00:13:42.55\00:13:45.59
but it's rising
up like a monolith
00:13:45.62\00:13:47.76
in 2001 Space Odyssey is
that the US has never really
00:13:47.79\00:13:54.46
had what other or
world countries have,
00:13:54.50\00:13:57.33
a unifying point for patriotism
00:13:57.37\00:14:01.50
because usually it's
ethnic, often religious,
00:14:01.54\00:14:05.24
often a huge like exodus.
00:14:05.27\00:14:08.28
And we're melting by it.
00:14:08.31\00:14:09.94
Yes, right. We're melting.
00:14:09.98\00:14:11.71
So basically in the US
mythology has substituted
00:14:11.75\00:14:15.72
for those old will things,
00:14:15.75\00:14:17.09
and one of the mythologies
is a Christian nation idea.
00:14:17.12\00:14:20.12
We're like Israel
coming out of Egypt.
00:14:20.16\00:14:23.12
Right.
00:14:23.16\00:14:24.49
Where it's just to the
point of ridiculousness
00:14:24.53\00:14:25.86
apart from the
constitution denying it
00:14:25.89\00:14:28.40
is that it's now a
far more population
00:14:28.43\00:14:31.97
and that's just
inaccurate to describe
00:14:32.00\00:14:34.40
the people in the
way they function.
00:14:34.44\00:14:35.77
Yeah.
00:14:35.80\00:14:37.14
We'll take a break
00:14:37.17\00:14:38.51
and come back to
finish our discussion.
00:14:38.54\00:14:39.94
Please, stay with us.
00:14:39.97\00:14:41.31