Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000394B
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00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break with guest Greg Hamilton, 00:10 we were going hammer and tong on the Civil War 00:13 and what caused it and... 00:14 And the life of Abraham Lincoln. 00:16 Yeah. 00:17 From the perspective of Abraham Lincoln, 00:18 well, we got onto the Civil War. 00:20 And of course, you can't really discuss him with it. 00:22 That's... I mean his life was long and... 00:26 But his presidency and his presiding 00:28 over the Civil War, 00:29 and of course, he was assassinated before really... 00:32 Well, we remember his ideals 00:34 more than we remember his pragmatism. 00:37 And the reason why, you know, he had to do the things he did. 00:41 As you said, he was a man of his times. 00:43 And I think of one of his idealistic statements 00:46 that I quote in my book called "Soul Liberty: 00:49 Celebrating America's First Freedom" 00:50 which you can get on Amazon.com, 00:52 and Lincoln says, "Those who deny freedom to others 00:55 deserve it not for themselves, and under a just God, 00:59 cannot long retain it." 01:01 So he actually believed in a deep sense 01:04 that ending slavery was not just God's will, 01:09 but it was a way to not only save the nation, 01:13 so to speak, both economically and otherwise, 01:16 but also to restore 01:18 the original intent of the Constitution 01:20 which to him meant making 01:23 basic rights accessible to women, 01:28 to minorities, including a lot of poor whites 01:33 who were still treated like chattel, and in a way, 01:37 almost as slaves themselves, okay? 01:40 And what I mean is the poor class 01:42 or what was what known back then as known as today, 01:46 the same name my grandpa used to give it years ago, 01:49 called them "white trash". 01:51 You know, that's terrible to say that. 01:53 But that's in fact the way it was, 01:55 and so Lincoln wanted to make... 01:56 No, they used to say the underclass. 01:58 The underclass. 01:59 But Lincoln wanted to make sure that everyone had access 02:03 to the Bill of Rights, to their basic human rights. 02:07 No, he had some very egalitarian views. 02:10 But as I've said, you repeated, 02:12 I think he was a person of his times. 02:15 You mentioned his comment on God and justice, you know, 02:19 he was the one that said, both sides had prayed to God, 02:23 and they couldn't both be right. 02:27 That's right. 02:28 Well, that's because both the North and the South 02:31 claim Scripture for their justification. 02:32 And that leads us 02:34 to the discussion of William Garrison. 02:36 You see, Lincoln, Abraham Lincoln, 02:39 really believed that the abolitionist movement, 02:42 even though they had a good cause, 02:44 he thought they were too radical, two extreme. 02:47 Lincoln did not want a Civil War. 02:49 He did not want a Civil War. 02:51 He thought that it was probably inevitable, 02:54 but he didn't want it. 02:55 And so he had a hard time linking himself 02:58 to the Christian right of his day, 03:00 the abolitionist movement. 03:01 Yet, in the end, it was Lincoln coming together in a wedding, 03:07 so to speak, of ideals that brought them together 03:10 to produce or to fight what's called 03:13 the Emancipation Proclamation Act of 1863, 03:16 which was later, of course, 03:19 voted on by Congress and made law 03:22 and ratified by all the states in 1865, after his death. 03:28 Well, yes, I'd put it in another way. 03:30 Civil War, you know, is a very desperate, 03:33 violent family feud. 03:36 And as the violence heats up, the issue sort of polarized. 03:40 And I think that's what happened. 03:41 We know that John Brown 03:43 who represented the radical fringe 03:45 of the abolitionist movement 03:47 was really the fuse that lit the conflict. 03:51 And as it sharpened and became more bitter, 03:54 naturally, their position would come closer to Lincoln's, 03:59 if not his views, then his need, his political need. 04:01 I've often found it interesting to watch 04:05 how extremists drive moderates 04:08 to take a more firmer stand on subjects. 04:11 Happens all the time. 04:12 And issues, and that's fascinating 04:15 in terms of a political dynamic. 04:17 We're seeing it right now in the United States. 04:18 Oh, absolutely. Yes. 04:20 And there's very few moderates left, 04:22 and they need to speak up and rise up and be counted. 04:25 Yeah. 04:26 And the moderates get shamed into their moderation 04:29 as the system appears to be polarizing. 04:32 Yes. Very dangerous time. 04:34 And the Civil War was a dangerous time. 04:37 I don't think it was a great thing on any level. 04:41 The abolition of slavery came out of it, 04:44 but I think you could make very good arguments 04:46 that if they had written that out, 04:48 slavery would have died a natural death, 04:50 not too... 04:51 Well, that's what Robert E. Lee 04:53 argued the general for the South, but in fact, 04:55 that was the argument of Thomas Jefferson 04:57 that they hoped that it would, you know, die a natural death. 04:59 Oh, yeah, but it took longer than they thought. 05:01 Yeah, much longer and... 05:03 But by the time of the Civil War, 05:05 the machinery for... 05:07 First of all, cotton was changing 05:09 in its dynamic anyhow, 05:10 but this machinery to harvest, 05:12 that was becoming more mechanized, 05:14 so there was not even the need. 05:16 Robert E. Lee even argued, 05:17 I just read a biography of Robert E. Lee, 05:19 a big old, fat book of about 900 pages, 05:22 and he talked about 05:23 how he cited the constitutional separation of church and state 05:27 as the reason why the North was so specifically 05:32 inspired by abolitionists 05:34 to basically make a moral judgment upon them 05:37 and say that slavery must be ended. 05:39 He said, you know, he says, 05:41 "It will probably die a natural death, 05:43 but you don't have a right to intervene 05:46 in our sovereign states' rights to do what we think is best." 05:50 And so therefore, he cited the constitutional separation 05:53 of church and state, why the Civil War was unjust 05:56 and immoral which I find fascinating 05:58 because, in fact, 05:59 Lincoln took a big risk being called immoral, 06:03 being called all kinds of names for moving forward this war. 06:08 I mean, if you think about how many lives were lost, 06:10 660,000 lives, the largest loss of lives 06:16 combined of any war in American history, 06:19 foreign or home. 06:21 And I find that interesting because Lincoln wasn't fighting 06:26 an immoral war, he was fighting a war of justice. 06:30 I think you can argue that case. 06:33 You're brining it close to what I had mentioned to you 06:35 in-between times. 06:36 I've just read an article recently 06:37 about the morality of sovereign states 06:40 and their wars and dynamic between states. 06:46 And it's very hard to point to an absolute legal 06:51 morality of states, how they act to or does this, 06:54 you know, when they murder millions of people 06:58 doing large territory or whatever, 07:00 in the past, it's not been on this pure, 07:02 moral state that you are attributing to Lincoln. 07:05 Really, it's might make right, 07:07 and if it's in the national interest, fine. 07:09 It's only when they lose the war, 07:12 we have the Nuremberg trials typically, 07:15 but I think as Christians, we need to recognize, 07:18 and I think, on that level, 07:19 Abraham Lincoln is due to some credence 07:23 that he did sort of insert a personal mortality, 07:27 not always consistent. 07:29 It's the only explanation or else, 07:31 I don't think history could be kind to him 07:33 because he was willing, basically, 07:36 as Hitler in his worst days was willing to sacrifice 07:38 the whole nation to get his way. 07:41 Well, and you look at the 66th Congress 07:45 which was basically 07:47 the radical Republicans post Civil War, 07:50 they came up with the 14th Amendment. 07:51 They gave us the Due Process Clause, 07:54 the Equal Protection Clause and so on. 07:58 And if you look at that movement, 08:02 there were radical Republicans who wanted to make sure that 08:05 the south to be admitted back into the Union 08:08 abided by the Constitution. 08:10 And they wanted to make sure that the southern people 08:14 had access to the same rights 08:16 as the other states did in the federal constitution, 08:19 specifically in the Bill of Rights. 08:21 And so what they did is they incorporated, 08:23 they came up with incorporation doctrine 08:26 which was that the south had to, in other words, 08:30 the Bill of Rights was intended also at the state level. 08:34 It wasn't just intended to be obeyed 08:37 or executed by the Federal government, 08:41 that it had to also be put forward 08:44 by the southern states 08:45 who didn't allow for human rights 08:49 or basic civil rights forted in those same Bill of Rights. 08:53 And so they made sure that 08:56 the Supremacy Clauses of Article VI, 08:58 sections 1 and 2 of the Constitution 09:00 which were originally there 09:02 when the founders signed off on the Constitution, 09:06 the south never really fully agreed 09:07 to those what's called the Supremacy Clauses. 09:09 I don't think... 09:11 That is the south had to abide 09:12 by federal law, and this idea that... 09:13 I don't think all the states quite saw it that way. 09:15 Well, this idea that states were ultimately sovereign 09:18 was a misnomer, and really, 09:21 the Civil War decided that once and for all that states... 09:24 You're right. 09:25 The war decided it, but I don't think 09:27 it had been decided in the Constitution. 09:28 Right. 09:30 States could not nullify any law 09:32 that the federal government came up with. 09:34 After the Civil War, that became clear, 09:37 the Supremacy Clauses of Article VI, 09:39 sections 1 and 2 made that clear. 09:41 When we examine the life of Lincoln, 09:42 we have to understand that he fought a just war. 09:50 If you hunt, you can still find spirituals 09:53 that mention father Abraham. 09:57 Abraham Lincoln doing his sobriquet honestly 10:00 as the president who signed proclamations 10:04 that ended slavery. 10:06 As a president though, he was definitely very controversial. 10:10 His religion itself was challenged 10:12 because he was not an orthodox Christian. 10:15 But in many of his personal dealings, 10:18 he exemplified a morality that we still wonder at. 10:22 How he came at that is a mystery. 10:25 But it is no question 10:26 that great men like Abraham Lincoln 10:29 have changed and determined 10:30 the courses of nation for centuries. 10:35 But rather than look at great men as something unique 10:38 or divinely inspired, recognize that like all of us, 10:41 they challenged their deficiencies 10:44 and reached toward the divine for their true hope. 10:49 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2018-07-30