Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
bringing you news, views,
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and information,
and indeed insights
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into religious liberty in the US
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and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine.
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And my guest, Gregory Hamilton,
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president of the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association,
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and my
sometimes, debating friend.
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Welcome back to
the program. Thank you.
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You know, we're
sitting in the studio
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that's in Illinois, right?
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You're a friendly
debater, Lincoln, by the way.
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It's all cool. Good.
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At least we can
shake afterwards.
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But, you know,
we're in Illinois now.
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Isn't that the land of
Lincoln? Yes, yes, I love it.
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And I don't take it personally.
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I was not named
after Abraham Lincoln.
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Well, you're from Australia,
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so you'll probably appreciate it
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as much as I do.
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I love the land of
Lincoln. Thank you.
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It works in my favor though
'cause I was named Lincoln
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after a spoon my parents
had that was Lincoln brand.
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But most Americans don't realize
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there's the town of
Lincoln played heavily
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in the wars of the kings.
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Lincoln Shaw, Lincoln Green.
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But we'll talk
about Abraham Lincoln.
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Father Abraham, as he
was known during the...
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And it's timely
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because we recently
celebrated Presidents' Day.
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Right.
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And also, we're
not too far removed
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from Black History Month,
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I've been dealing with
it on Liberty magazine.
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And he played a central
role, of course, as president
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with the
Emancipation Proclamation
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during the Civil War.
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But what do you think
of Abraham Lincoln is?
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And don't apply it to me,
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but Lincoln, what do
you think of Lincoln?
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Well, you know, I
first think of Lincoln
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in a statement
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that it's a speech he
gave at Edwardsville, Illinois
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on September 13, 1858.
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And he said,
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"Familiarize yourselves
with the chains of bondage,
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and you prepare your
own limbs to wear them.
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Accustomed to trample
on the rights of others,
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you have lost the genius
of your own independence,
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and become the fit subjects
of the first cunning tyrant
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who rises among you."
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Now this was
sort of the beginning
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of Abraham Lincoln's
real rise of consciousness
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regarding the plight
of the African-American.
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For many years, he had thought,
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"Well, if they'd just establish
a separate state or colony
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in which all
African-Americans could live
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or they could be sent
to a country in Africa,
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okay, where they
could all live peacefully
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and be free there."
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Or, you know, this and that,
all kinds of theories came up,
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but then when
Dred Scott decision
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was passed by the...
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Or was ruled on
by the Supreme Court
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that declared that black people,
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African-Americans
essentially were not people.
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They were not
persons, they were slaves,
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they were people of bondage,
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and therefore the
three-fifths clause
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in the Constitution saying
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that slaves represented
three-fifths of a person
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for purposes of apportionment,
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so that states could
have equal representation
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at the federal legislature.
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Are not quite equal, but
given a white commensurate
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with these extra persons.
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Right, and so because
the population in South
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was not big, it was large farms,
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large plantations,
not a big population,
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so they wanted
equal representation
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as much as possible.
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And so when that
decision came down
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basically
affirming the original intent
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of the founders,
which was accurate,
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Lincoln was incensed
about that because he said,
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you know, "Aren't
you awake to the times?
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Don't you understand
that the slavery system
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is going to run amuck,
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that it's going to
create a total collapse
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of our economic
system in this country."
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And so he was
getting more agitated,
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and was getting more
and more oppressed to run
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for president of
the United States.
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He had failed in
running for Statehouse,
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like three times,
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even though he
won several times...
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Yeah, he had a checkered career.
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He ran for
Congress like four times,
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and only got in
once for two years,
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and then was ousted
after his famous speech
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where he declared that
the Mexican-American War
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was a wicked war,
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and that President James
Polk was an evil president.
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And so it got back
home in the newspapers,
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back in Springfield,
Illinois, and they ousted him.
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They said that's
politically incorrect,
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that's intolerable.
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My take on
Abraham Lincoln is that...
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As you've said other times
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on the framers
of the Constitution,
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of course much earlier than him,
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that he was a
product of his times,
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and you can't
remove him from that.
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I think he reflected
his times in many ways,
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but he had a
growing moral consciousness
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that brought him in
conflict with his time.
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You know, I've
read his speeches,
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the debate with
Douglas, wasn't it?
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Yes.
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In particular, and he
made some horrendous statements
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that would get
him fired nowadays
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about non-whites.
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I mean, he said, "You and I,
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neither one of us want to
live next to such people."
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Right?
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And I don't think
he was just saying
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that for them,
what I think is...
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And yet he had great
compassion for them because...
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Well, he was a
person of deep morality.
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He got into a few fist fights
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defending black
people in Springfield.
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I think as a
level of human beings,
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he saw a great injustice.
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And more and more,
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he was determined
to stop it, right?
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But there's an
incredible telling episode,
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not long before
his assassination,
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with a deputation of the black
leadership came to his office,
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and they were thankful.
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They came to thank him.
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And you know
what he said to them?
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He says, "Since
you are the proximate
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cause of this war, you
should leave this country."
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Yeah. No, I recall that, yes.
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And yet at the same time,
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you know, he
risked the whole Union
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in some ways over this issue.
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If he had
publicly endorsed slavery
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as he became President,
he could have defused it.
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All though, it's
really the other way around.
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His mere election
guaranteed the civil war
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because he was
already so much on record
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as opposing the
aims of the South
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and so on.
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Oh, yeah, the South were,
was very mindful of that fact,
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and they were very
upset with his election.
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And they thought this
was the end of the world,
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we have to do
something about it, essentially.
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So he was a man
of great justice.
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And yet the great
irony is as the civil war
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was going hard, as
a strategic matter,
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he freed the slaves in the South
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not in the North.
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That's true.
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In fact, much of
the Jim Crow laws
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and the Black Codes
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that followed
Black Code laws first,
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and then the
Jim Crow laws later,
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prior to the
civil rights movement.
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All of those laws
were basically modeled
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after laws for African-Americans
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that existed in the North.
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There's separate but
equal type philosophy
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that promoted segregation.
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So my point after
throwing the dust everywhere
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is let's give him
full and absolute credit,
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in spite of being
a man of his times,
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he had the moxie to
tackle this nettlesome issue
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that even today
haunts the United States.
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But think about it.
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He did it from a
point of morality,
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but as a citizen of his times
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he was a mixed
bag as you'd expect.
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But he risked his
reputation as President,
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even re-election to fight
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for the
Emancipation Proclamation Act,
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which he put forward in 1863,
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a year before his re-election...
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Well, his cabinet
matter wasn't cut and dried.
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No, of course not.
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He had a very...
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At times almost
cynical attitude to all.
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Of course. And had to be pushed.
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Of course, in
fact, he had a philosophy
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that if the
Emancipation Proclamation,
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by putting it forward,
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it gave the North a
sense of moral superiority
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over the South.
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It was a means, a
practical means of inspiring
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the troops to,
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"You have a cause to fight for."
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In other words, don't lay down.
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Don't just think you
can have a few skirmishes.
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In fact, he had a problem
with some of the generals
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including General McClellan,
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who was the head
of all the forces,
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who thought,
well, if we just went
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a few skirmishes here and there,
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we'll settle
and the South become
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a Southern United States
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and North become a
Northern United States.
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He says, "No, we
have to utterly annihilate
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the South in order
to restore the Union."
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That was Lincoln's philosophy,
and you can read this in James
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MacPherson's book
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his Pulitzer Prize winning book
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called Tried by War:
Lincoln as Commander in Chief.
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It's a great book.
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And I encourage you to read it
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because what it
demonstrates is that Lincoln,
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from his teenage years
on would go to the library
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and he would borrow these books
by on the Life of Napoleon,
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Prussian
generals, other generals.
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I mean this guy was so well read
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in terms of war strategies
and battle strategies,
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more so than even the commanders
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who had gone to West Point.
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Well, that was his...
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You need to be
careful that was his judgment.
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And you and I have lived
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through a few
presidents to believe
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that they had
strategic knowledge.
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I know,
presidents who took over.
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But Lincoln was...
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The history books
have been very kind to him
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as though McClellan wasn't it
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and others were
just lazy commanders.
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And they didn't do
what Lincoln wanted.
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They might have
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had good military
reason for that course.
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Well, that's why he
found in Grant and Sharman,
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you know, Ulysses S. Grant
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and William
Tecumseh Sherman general...
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A rural criminal and a boozer.
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Now be careful, Ulysses S. Grant
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is my relative now.
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And historians are
elevating Grant right now
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to great prominence
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because they
didn't truly understand.
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He was a man of few words.
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He was very quiet like...
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He was a bulldog. Yes,
he was very persistent.
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Yeah. Yes.
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I've studied the
civil war at great length,
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but it is very interesting.
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But like all history,
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it takes on to
one dimensionality,
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if you're not careful.
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I want to focus
on Lincoln's Father,
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Thomas Lincoln.
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It's very interesting
the way Lincoln grew up,
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you know, Lincoln's
father was a homesteader.
00:10:47.38\00:10:50.91
And he tried to
homestead in West Virginia,
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then Kentucky,
and then Illinois.
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And he failed in all places,
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and his father was very much
into Jeffersonian economics,
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this idea that agrarianism
was the answer to everything
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that you could
be self-supporting,
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self-sufficient,
and it didn't work.
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He failed every time
because that economic system,
00:11:09.40\00:11:13.64
even though it seemed
good, in and of itself,
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small farms never quite made it.
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Big farms always made
it but small farms didn't.
00:11:18.87\00:11:21.64
And so the homesteader economy,
Lincoln said was ridiculous.
00:11:21.68\00:11:27.55
It was a failure.
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He admired his hard scrabble,
his rough knuckled father,
00:11:28.95\00:11:32.39
and his sweet
mother, but he understood
00:11:32.42\00:11:35.32
that in order for
a country to thrive,
00:11:35.36\00:11:38.33
you have to
have a banking system
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that corresponds with
all facets of the economy
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in which the
economy was revved up
00:11:46.87\00:11:50.51
through commercial
industry and industrialism,
00:11:50.54\00:11:54.51
that it couldn't
just be the cotton farmer,
00:11:54.54\00:11:57.65
or the agrarian farmer,
00:11:57.68\00:11:59.28
or the plantation
owner to sustain the economy.
00:11:59.31\00:12:01.38
What he saw was economy
that would fail ultimately
00:12:01.42\00:12:06.22
with a Southern system
that insisted on slavery
00:12:06.25\00:12:10.06
as the backbone of its economy,
00:12:10.09\00:12:13.43
which would drag
the rest of the nation,
00:12:13.46\00:12:15.03
the North, being
the industrial North,
00:12:15.06\00:12:17.33
would drag both down
00:12:17.37\00:12:20.07
into not only economic collapse,
00:12:20.10\00:12:21.97
but the
ruinization of their nation.
00:12:22.00\00:12:24.27
In fact, even up to that day,
Britain still had aspirations
00:12:24.31\00:12:28.71
even up to 1860,
00:12:28.74\00:12:31.08
they had aspirations of
taking over North America.
00:12:31.11\00:12:34.82
Re-taking it, yeah. Yes.
00:12:34.85\00:12:36.48
They saw the weakness.
They kept looking for weakness.
00:12:36.52\00:12:39.52
And they were
ready to seize it back.
00:12:39.55\00:12:41.79
Lincoln knew all
this. Lincoln studied this.
00:12:41.82\00:12:44.39
And so, when you
look at the civil war,
00:12:44.43\00:12:46.59
there were all
kinds of factors involved.
00:12:46.63\00:12:49.56
Well, and you can
make a good argument
00:12:49.60\00:12:51.37
that it wasn't just
the South agitation,
00:12:51.40\00:12:54.37
in particular slavery.
00:12:54.40\00:12:56.54
The US was
getting a little large
00:12:56.57\00:12:59.44
for the old system to control.
00:12:59.47\00:13:00.98
It was becoming rambunctious,
00:13:01.01\00:13:03.51
and the move
toward industrialization,
00:13:03.55\00:13:06.28
of course, was
creating this divide
00:13:06.31\00:13:08.35
between the
agrarian South and the North.
00:13:08.38\00:13:10.32
Something would
have happened anyway.
00:13:10.35\00:13:11.69
If it hadn't been
slavery, I believe, in fact,
00:13:11.72\00:13:15.22
I have
00:13:15.26\00:13:19.09
an aspirational view of history.
00:13:19.13\00:13:21.23
I think if
Lincoln had lain it down
00:13:21.26\00:13:24.83
and not
precipitate the civil war,
00:13:24.87\00:13:27.84
I think the US
would have fragmented
00:13:27.87\00:13:32.07
into at least
two sovereign areas,
00:13:32.11\00:13:35.04
and it could have
done it peacefully.
00:13:35.08\00:13:36.91
Whether it would have
fulfilled "Manifest Destiny",
00:13:36.95\00:13:40.32
that's another question.
00:13:40.35\00:13:41.68
Well, we forget
that the civil war,
00:13:41.72\00:13:43.05
even the whole
concept of the civil war
00:13:43.08\00:13:44.55
was unconstitutional.
00:13:44.59\00:13:46.19
That's what I think. You
have to shift for the day.
00:13:46.22\00:13:48.59
Yeah, no, absolutely.
00:13:48.62\00:13:50.03
And so Lincoln was
taking a huge risk.
00:13:50.06\00:13:53.23
He was called a law breaker,
00:13:53.26\00:13:54.66
a man who was
against the Constitution,
00:13:54.70\00:13:56.87
a revolutionary that
was evil, abominable.
00:13:56.90\00:14:00.97
I mean, this is the
way the South painted him.
00:14:01.00\00:14:03.54
And in some respects,
00:14:03.57\00:14:04.91
they could
legitimately say that.
00:14:04.94\00:14:06.54
Okay, in the sense that
00:14:06.57\00:14:08.11
that in terms of
understanding the Constitution,
00:14:08.14\00:14:10.75
in terms of the interpretation
of original intent,
00:14:10.78\00:14:14.38
that's why original
intent in the long run,
00:14:14.42\00:14:17.95
you almost have to
throw out the window at times,
00:14:17.99\00:14:19.82
not altogether.
00:14:19.85\00:14:21.19
It's dangerous
00:14:21.22\00:14:22.56
because they might
have had some bad intension,
00:14:22.59\00:14:24.26
not necessarily
written in the Constitution.
00:14:24.29\00:14:26.29
But we know the
factions at that time,
00:14:26.33\00:14:28.43
and you don't want
00:14:28.46\00:14:29.80
to reach back into old factions.
00:14:29.83\00:14:31.17
And not only that
00:14:31.20\00:14:32.53
but if the South grows
by eliminating slavery,
00:14:32.57\00:14:35.47
it causes the South and
Southern cities to grow.
00:14:35.50\00:14:38.77
So I mean...
00:14:38.81\00:14:41.51
And with
Southern cities growing,
00:14:41.54\00:14:43.55
what do you have?
00:14:43.58\00:14:44.91
You have more representation
at the federal legislature,
00:14:44.95\00:14:49.12
and so he knew
that the economic system
00:14:49.15\00:14:51.35
would sustain itself.
00:14:51.39\00:14:52.72
Yeah, absolutely.
00:14:52.75\00:14:54.09
I see you did it
double take in noticing
00:14:54.12\00:14:55.49
that we're a little
past our halfway time.
00:14:55.52\00:14:57.33
So let's take a break.
00:14:57.36\00:14:58.69
We'll be back shortly to
continue this interesting
00:14:58.73\00:15:01.83
revisionist discussion.
00:15:01.86\00:15:03.26