Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000393B
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00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break, with guest Greg Hamilton, 00:10 we were going hammer and tong on the argument. 00:12 And now I'm going to stir things a little more. 00:16 Great things here that you're saying, 00:18 and I don't question them. 00:20 You and I believe there was an intention 00:22 to provide religious liberty and there were good antecedents 00:26 back to the reformation 00:27 and even further for that matter. 00:29 But we're filming this not far removed 00:33 from Black History Month. 00:35 Yes. 00:37 Give me a good explanation 00:38 as how they could have such high-flown statements 00:41 about civil and religious liberty 00:44 when there was a whole slave population, 00:47 not only were not civilly free, 00:49 not always free even to practice religion. 00:53 Well, I would say that, in context, 00:55 they were living in the times they were living in, 00:57 which means essentially that their consciences 01:02 hadn't fully awakened to the problem. 01:04 I mean they knew it was a problem, 01:06 but it was an "accepted problem," okay? 01:10 So much so that they compromised 01:12 in terms of writing the constitution 01:15 as to what would allow the south, 01:18 'cause it had very little population 01:19 compared to the north, to allow for apportionment. 01:22 So they said that African-Americans 01:24 were counted as three-fifths of a person, 01:26 which going back to the Dred Scott decision of 1858, 01:30 clearly was a statement that dehumanized black people 01:36 as saying that they were anything but persons. 01:40 And so that was a problem. 01:42 Obviously, there was a practical reason 01:44 for apportionment reasons so that they could have 01:47 equal representation in Congress. 01:48 Well, I have a radical solution. 01:51 Let's test it. Yeah. 01:52 I believe the US Constitution is a property document. 01:56 Well, sure it is. 01:57 And the amendments that... 02:04 We have evidence from that in Revelation 13, 02:06 where it calls the beast of Revelation 13, 02:09 the lamb-like beast, he calls it the land beast, 02:11 the beast that comes up out of the earth. 02:14 And the United States would emerge in wide 02:16 because citizenship and even the right to vote 02:19 was based on whether you owned property or not. 02:22 Right. 02:23 But the whole logic of, 02:24 you know, even Life, Liberty, 02:26 and the Pursuit of Happiness, 02:27 the original state was of the Pursuit of Property. 02:29 Yes. They all knew that. 02:30 Oh, yes. It was very well known. 02:32 So the constitution, 02:33 it's a bit a more than property, 02:35 it is premised on a property concept of rights 02:38 and everything, so it exists. 02:40 And the Bill of Rights that Madison had so much to do with, 02:46 even though he didn't want a Bill of Rights, 02:49 is a moral description of real rights. 02:54 And in some ways, 02:56 they are made to mesh together, 02:57 but they come in from two different points 02:59 of the compass. 03:01 Well. Property and individual rights. 03:04 And it pushed too far, 03:06 which they were not willing to do at the time, 03:07 like you say, because of the culture. 03:10 They're contradictory. 03:11 Even though it wasn't the most ideal system, 03:13 we still have to look at the ideals. 03:16 The ideals... 03:17 That's what I tried to say in an earlier program. 03:20 The constitutional ideals that the US adopted 03:24 are a beacon to this day, not just to the US itself 03:27 but to the whole world. 03:29 I guess, for me, even though I have a sense of pragmatism, 03:32 I still say we need to keep getting back to the ideals 03:37 because I think it would help to heal our nation 03:40 in many respects if we got back to our ideals. 03:44 And for me, I think of James Madison who wrote that, 03:48 "Experience will be an admitted umpire. 03:50 In the papal system, government and religion 03:53 are in a manner consolidated or joined and that is found 03:56 to be the worst of governments." 03:58 So even in Madison's thinking, 04:00 the reason why we wrote this constitution 04:02 was to get away from the medieval era 04:04 in which kings usurped the authority of priests, 04:08 and churches, and clergy, 04:10 and in which the church usurped the authority of kings 04:13 and emperors and to get rid of that old system altogether 04:17 and to have a representative system 04:19 in which the people could choose their representatives 04:22 and in which the separation of church and state 04:25 was a reality. 04:28 It's interesting the way you express that 04:30 because I'm sure you know that in the reformation, 04:34 and particularly in England, the conflict that developed 04:37 was between church courts and state courts, 04:41 and they were overlapping. 04:43 So it was a justice issue and a matter of 04:47 who was in authority as much as a belief 04:50 or shaking free of the church. 04:54 Well, it was an issue of jurisdiction, 04:55 and it had everything to do with... 05:01 Oh, I don't remember the term. 05:04 The investiture. 05:06 The power of investiture. 05:07 Well, that's how it played out. 05:09 Who had the right to ordain 05:10 who and who had a right to interpret law and so forth. 05:13 And remember, that continued, Napoleon crowns himself. 05:16 It was known as the investiture controversy. 05:19 Yes. Yes. Yes. 05:21 One of the things that I want to point out 05:24 in my book is the fact that in the Constitution, 05:27 at least the way it was written, 05:30 Jefferson said, you know, 05:32 the Constitution should not be ratified 05:34 until a Bill of Rights is attached to it. 05:36 In other words that nine states should hold out 05:39 and not allow for ratification and to basically say, 05:44 "We need a guarantee of a bill 05:46 of the people's rights to be enumerated." 05:48 And a number of the states held out enough that 05:50 that forced the issue. 05:52 And Alexander Hamilton came along and said, 05:55 "We don't need a bill of rights, 05:56 they're already inherent in the Constitution itself." 05:59 The constitution was enough. 06:00 I thought Madison was pushing that line. 06:02 Madison was too along with Hamilton, 06:03 but Madison, who was a close friend of Jefferson, 06:06 began to see Jefferson's point in their fevered correspondence 06:09 for a need for a bill of the people's rights. 06:12 And so basically, what they were trying to do 06:15 was to protect the people from themselves. 06:17 James Madison rose up in the first Congress of 1789 06:22 in New York City, right across the street 06:24 from modern day Wall Street in Federal Hall. 06:26 He says, "I confess that any government modified 06:29 like this of the United States, the greater danger lies 06:32 rather in the abuse of the community 06:34 than in the legislative body. 06:37 The prescriptions in favor of liberty 06:38 ought therefore to be leveled against that quarter 06:40 where the greatest danger lies, 06:42 namely, that which possesses 06:44 the highest prerogative of a power." 06:45 But this is not found in either the executive or legislative 06:49 or judicial departments of government 06:51 but in the body of the people operating by the majority 06:54 against the minority. 06:56 In other words, they wanted to prevent mob rule. 06:58 And so they felt that... 07:00 It's almost the secret principle that, 07:03 at this day, most people don't understand. 07:04 Yes. 07:06 These guys were not pure Democrats 07:09 or for pure democracy. 07:10 They feared the majority. 07:13 Most of the US system was set up to blunt 07:16 the autocratic tendencies of the majority. 07:19 Yes. 07:20 And that's why it's a representative democracy. 07:23 But there's a counterbalance to that. 07:24 And that is, "We the People," obviously, 07:27 the preamble to the Constitution 07:28 represents a statement of that this is based... 07:31 Our country is based on majority rule. 07:33 Well, I think... 07:35 But with certain rights for minorities. 07:36 As I said during the reformation, 07:37 the issue that Luther had was one of authority. 07:41 And the US is premised on the authority of the people 07:45 as a body. 07:46 They've vested that authority in their offices, 07:49 the president and so on. 07:51 Yes. 07:52 And that's been forgotten. 07:54 It is. 07:55 I mean, in the last several administrations, 07:57 the presidents speak autocratically. 08:00 They don't have authority, 08:02 they are granted oversight for a term, 08:05 but on the authority of the people. 08:07 Yes, that's right. 08:08 Thomas Jefferson wrote, 08:10 "Bear in mind this sacred principle 08:11 that though the will of the majority is in all cases 08:14 to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable, 08:17 that the minority possess their equal rights, 08:20 which equal laws must protect, 08:22 and to violate would be oppression." 08:24 And so that's the reason 08:26 why we had a bill of the people's rights, 08:28 otherwise known as the amendments 08:29 to the Constitution of the United States. 08:32 And so when we look at this experiment 08:35 in which the founders sought to create a check and balance 08:39 even on the people, even on We the People, 08:43 the fickle will of the masses, so to speak, 08:45 to make sure that the masses didn't do things 08:48 that would actually wreck the Constitution. 08:51 They actually wanted to preserve the Constitution. 08:53 And the Bill of Rights 08:54 actually helps to sustain the Constitution. 08:56 Well, you've just given a good rationale, 08:58 which I know is the one 09:00 for why the American system seems very cumbersome. 09:04 It was purposely made. 09:05 Yes. Slow to respond. 09:07 Well, but my argument is that the Bill of Rights 09:09 was intended to make sure that the Constitution did last. 09:13 And I really believe that without the Bill of Rights, 09:15 our Constitution would not have lasted as long as it has. 09:19 That's my fundamental belief. No. 09:21 Because you would have had tyranny. 09:22 Think of the Civil War, 09:23 think of what was fought for there, all right? 09:26 And a lot of people dismiss, 09:27 "Oh, that wasn't fought over the freedom of the slaves." 09:31 Nonsense. 09:32 It was not only to say that it was only fought over States' 09:35 rights is nonsense, States' rights, okay, 09:38 included the whole issue of slavery. 09:40 And so slavery cannot be divorced from that issue. 09:42 And so without Black people, and women, 09:46 and minorities having access to the Bill of Rights, 09:49 what did they have? 09:51 And so here we have a system which... 09:53 Well, what it meant was the Constitution 09:54 didn't self-destruct when they moved away 09:57 from what it self-contained. 09:58 I mean, the Constitution did contain 10:00 the marginalization of the slaves. 10:02 But with the Bill of Rights, 10:03 it moved to the aspirational side, 10:05 so you don't need to get rid of it, 10:07 you put an amendment. 10:08 When States were forced to abide by the Bill of Rights, 10:11 then you see a system in which 10:14 freedom was afforded to all at the lowest level, 10:17 not just to a certain few. 10:20 And so I really believe religious freedom, 10:22 our constitutional system is vitally important 10:25 when understood rightly. 10:27 I pray that this book will be a blessing to everyone 10:32 who buys it. 10:33 God bless. Thank you. 10:38 It's one of the great mysteries of history, 10:39 at least to me, how in the establishing 10:43 of the United States and the adopting 10:46 and development of a new constitution, 10:48 so many of the principles could be barely religious. 10:53 Diaz is probably the best you can give to them. 10:56 How many irreligious or unreligious 10:59 or thoroughly secular people could come up 11:02 with a document that, at its heart, 11:04 defends freedom of religion, 11:07 not just as a line item but as a concept? 11:12 I think that's the divine element 11:14 in the history of the United States, 11:15 how God could guide people 11:17 hardly knowing what they were doing. 11:19 But out of it came a protection 11:23 that exists to this day of the ultimate right 11:27 that we should all have to recognize God, 11:31 to worship Him, to follow Him, 11:33 to proclaim Him in the way that our conscience dictates. 11:37 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2018-07-23