Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000393A
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00:28 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:30 This is the program that I hope you watch regularly 00:33 that brings news, views, discussion, 00:36 and up-to-date information on religious liberty events 00:40 in the US and around the world. 00:42 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:45 And my guest on the program is Gregory Hamilton, 00:49 Greg Hamilton, 00:51 President of the Northwest Religious Liberty Association, 00:54 and I know what you want to talk about on this program. 00:57 Your newest baby, right? 00:59 Well, I... The book that you put together. 01:01 It's actually my first published book in my life, 01:03 so I'll just state it. 01:05 But it's called Soul Liberty, 01:07 Celebrating America's First Freedom. 01:09 And it's all about 01:10 America's constitutional founding and religious freedom, 01:13 and how we got to religious freedom 01:15 from the time of the pilgrims on the Mayflower 01:18 to the Puritans to The First Great Awakening 01:21 and to the Constitution founding, 01:23 and especially The Revolutionary War. 01:25 And that just hit me, the title. 01:26 You want to say where you got the title from? 01:28 Yeah, yes. 01:29 Soul Liberty is a statement 01:31 based upon a little pamphlet that Roger Williams wrote, 01:35 the founder of Rhode Island 01:38 and a Baptist itinerant preacher, 01:41 and who had a charter from the king 01:45 to establish the colony of Rhode Island. 01:48 And what's interesting about Roger Williams 01:50 is that Soul Liberty means the soul, 01:54 meaning the conscience 01:56 and the liberty of conscience 01:58 is really what soul liberty means 02:00 and that's how it's defined. 02:02 And so when we think of liberty of conscience, 02:05 liberty of conscience 02:06 obviously is religious freedom in essence. 02:10 And one could say, "Well, liberty of conscience 02:12 is more than religious freedom." 02:14 That's true, 02:16 and that's what Roger Williams meant it as. 02:19 But one of the statements that Roger Williams made 02:21 that we have to remember, and I'll just read it to you. 02:25 "There goes many a ship to sea with many souls in one ship 02:29 whose weal and woe is a true picture of society. 02:32 Sometimes, Papists, Protestants, Jews, and Turks, 02:36 meaning Muslims may be embarked in one ship, 02:39 upon which I affirm that all the liberty 02:41 of conscience that ever I pleaded for turns upon this 02:45 that none be forced to come 02:46 to the ship's prayers or worship 02:48 nor be restrained 02:50 from their own particular prayers or a worship 02:52 if they practice any." 02:54 And that's key because Roger Williams 02:56 believed in religious freedom for all, 02:58 and he especially believed 03:00 in a separation of church at state 03:04 and where the state does not interfere 03:06 with the religious conscience. 03:08 I believe he was the direct precursor to, 03:11 you know, the Founding Fathers 03:12 that actually put the constitution together 03:15 and formulated these principles. 03:16 He's very close to my historical sensibility 03:20 because he's linked inextricably 03:22 with the Puritan ideas that led to the Civil War, 03:26 and he himself was essentially 03:29 the adopted son of Sir Edward Coke, 03:32 the Chief Justice of England who legally set in motion 03:36 a lot of what led to the Puritan ascendance 03:39 and I believe led very much to the ideas that played out 03:42 through the US Constitution. 03:44 Exactly. 03:46 And the wonderful thing about Roger Williams is 03:48 he really believed 03:50 that the church should remain separate from the state 03:53 so that the church could be pure 03:57 or could at least attempt to have a pure society 04:02 within itself. 04:03 And that was interesting because, 04:05 you know, Roger Williams had sort of a communal sense 04:09 of government in the way he looked at things, 04:12 which is not the best. 04:14 In fact, if you were to take Roger Williams 04:15 to his ultimate extreme, you would call him a communist. 04:18 And... 04:20 Well, you could say that of Acts, the book of Acts. 04:21 Yeah, I know. I know. 04:23 And he was true to his beliefs, he was true to the Bible, 04:27 and not that the Bible is describing 04:31 or promoting communism, don't misunderstand me. 04:33 But in a sense that Roger Williams believed... 04:36 Oh, it's communitarianism. Yes, communitarianism. 04:39 But in a sense in which the community found 04:43 its conscience 04:47 directly answerable to God 04:49 and not to any church, not to any state, 04:51 and, I think that's vitally important. 04:54 With this book, 04:56 I intended to make it available for legislators, 05:00 for thought leaders all throughout the country, 05:04 for people of faith, pastors, and so on 05:06 but also for children 05:08 because it's a coffee-table book, 05:09 excuse the term, a coffee-table... 05:12 You're forewarned, I texted you before... 05:13 Yes, yes, yes. 05:15 As health reformers, we believe in coffee. 05:16 Well, whatever. 05:18 I'm sure people will get over that. 05:19 But anyway, it is in fact a coffee-table book, 05:22 full of beautiful pictures 05:24 on the America's constitutional founding. 05:26 And as one picture here, that's one of my favorites, 05:29 it's of the Mayflower ship. 05:31 Very nice. 05:32 And it starts my essay, 05:36 The Fight for Religious Freedom, 05:37 America's journey in historical context. 05:40 But what I seek to do is 05:42 restore the magisterial intent of the founders 05:45 regarding religious freedom, 05:47 and especially in regard to the separation of powers, 05:50 the three branches of government. 05:52 You know, when I think of the conceptual origins 05:54 of the Constitution of the United States, 05:56 it began actually around the fires of Valley Forge 05:59 during the Revolutionary War against Britain, 06:01 where George Washington and Alexander Hamilton 06:05 and John Marshall who'd later become Chief Justice 06:07 and was the nephew of George Washington 06:10 sat around the fires, 06:12 actually constructing the future government 06:15 if they were to win the Revolutionary War. 06:17 And Alexander Hamilton and John Marshall 06:19 came up with this separation of powers concept 06:22 that is a fully independent executive branch, 06:25 a fully independent congressional branch, 06:27 and a fully independent judicial branch, 06:30 and it was ingenious, 06:32 I mean, here they were crafting the future government 06:35 around the fires, cold, cold nights 06:38 where some soldiers walking around with no shoes 06:42 and bloody feet and gangrene 06:45 and everything else under the sun 06:47 and, you know... 06:49 Not under the sun. Yeah, well, right. 06:52 If they were under the sun, there will be no problem. 06:53 Yes, yes. 06:55 But simultaneously 06:56 James Madison who's dubbed the Father of the Constitution 06:59 was crafting the same formula 07:00 for America's post-Revolutionary 07:02 War experiment in constitutional government. 07:04 And one of the things that we forget about 07:08 is while the war was raging, 07:11 another experiment was taking place in Virginia. 07:14 Virginia statute, excuse me, 07:17 Virginia's Declaration of Rights 07:22 was passed and adopted by Virginia's General Assembly, 07:24 and it was James Madison who wrote in that declaration 07:27 that all men are entitled 07:28 to the free exercise of religion 07:30 according to the dictates of conscience. 07:32 And shortly, thereafter in 1777, 07:34 Thomas Jefferson penned 07:37 the Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom 07:39 which was in response to another bill 07:42 put forward by Patrick Henry. 07:44 Patrick Henry, you know, the person who got up and said, 07:47 "Give me liberty or give me death." 07:49 He was not a libertarian. 07:51 Yeah. He had very autocratic mindset. Yes. 07:53 And in fact, most people don't realize, 07:55 you know, a lot of people love to celebrate Patrick Henry, 07:58 but he opposed the constitution, 08:01 okay, and he actually, in the end, 08:03 despite he's being in favor of calling 08:05 for a Bill of Rights, in the end, 08:07 he couldn't bring himself around to vote for it. 08:09 Yeah. Okay, he was just a naysayer all the way around. 08:12 Probably a good guy, 08:13 but as Thomas Jefferson, James Madison... 08:15 He was a rough diamond. 08:18 He had a silver tongue 08:19 but he didn't have too bright of a mind. 08:21 And so, you know, we have to remember that. 08:25 But James Madison and Thomas Jefferson 08:29 came up with Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom 08:31 in response to a bill establishing a provision 08:36 for teachers of the Christian religion 08:37 put together by Patrick Henry. 08:39 It was a government funding bill 08:41 that favored the Anglican Church 08:43 over all other religions. 08:45 In other words, basically, it was a bill that said, 08:46 "Yeah, we believe that the Church of England 08:49 should be disestablished from the Assembly of Virginia, 08:53 from the state of Virginia, but at the same time, 08:56 the predominant religion must be favored. 08:59 And he thought 09:00 he was putting forward a religious freedom bill, 09:03 and James Madison and Thomas Jefferson came back 09:06 with a Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom 09:08 that says, "No, no, this doesn't go far enough. 09:10 We must have absolute religious freedom 09:12 which means a complete separation 09:14 from the church and state." 09:16 And James... It was a landmark. There's no question. 09:20 James Madison wrote in his 15-point memorial remonstrance 09:24 to try to influence all the religious minorities 09:27 to come together to oppose Patrick Henry's bill, 09:29 which was defeated in the end, 09:31 and the Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom passed. 09:34 And by the way, 09:35 the Virginia Statue of Religious Freedom 09:36 became the foundation for the actual language 09:40 for the first amendment that we have today, 09:41 especially the establishment 09:43 and free exercise clauses in the first amendment. 09:45 Yeah, it's clearly, directly modeled after it, isn't it? 09:48 Yes, it is. 09:49 Tell me something 'cause, I think, 09:51 for our viewers we need to settle it. 09:52 Yes. 09:54 The Madison's Memorial and Remonstrance... Yes. 09:56 I love what he wrote. Yes. 09:58 But the continuing effort 10:00 to characterize that it's not written by him... 10:03 No, no, no, no. You're thinking of the... 10:07 No, not Memorial Remonstrance, it's the Memorandum, Madison's, 10:11 it's called The Memorandum. 10:12 That's different from the Memorial Remonstrance. 10:15 Yeah, I thought even on this... 10:16 No, no, it's a Memorandum that's disputed, 10:19 not the Memorial Remonstrance. 10:21 But we know his views, 10:23 my point I want to bring out that he was very consistent, 10:27 it's not like something was discovered 10:29 that took another angle. 10:31 Madison was very plain on separation 10:34 and the value of religion 10:35 but not the state not getting involved. 10:39 Yeah, keep going. 10:40 Yeah, well, he wrote, he said, 10:42 "What influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments 10:47 had on civil society? 10:48 In some instances, they have been seen 10:50 to erect a spiritual tyranny 10:52 on the ruins of civil authority. 10:55 In many instances, they have been seen 10:56 upholding the thrones, a political tyranny. 10:59 In no instance have they been seen 11:01 the guardians as the liberties of the people." 11:03 In other words, he was saying, 11:04 "Hey, the experiments of governments 11:07 and where the state controls the church is bad. 11:10 The experiments throughout the dark ages 11:12 in which the church, basically 11:14 threatened excommunication of kings and emperors 11:17 where the church controlled the state is bad. 11:19 Okay, we seek to create 11:21 a model government that does neither." 11:23 Okay, and so they wanted to make sure 11:26 when they framed their government, 11:28 they wanted to make sure 11:29 that the state was completely free 11:31 and the church was completely free, 11:34 they wanted to create a win-win situation, 11:36 and that's what they created with our constitutional system. 11:40 Madison wrote in 1832 11:41 when challenged by a Reverend Jasper Adams. 11:45 Adams pressed Madison with the argument 11:47 that since most Americans were Christian 11:50 that Christianity in general 11:51 should be constitutionally recognized 11:53 and funded by the government in a nondiscriminatory way. 11:56 Mr. Madison responded by writing this. 11:58 Here's what he said. 11:59 He said, "Who does not see that the same authority 12:02 which can establish Christianity 12:04 in exclusion of all other religions, 12:06 don't we hear that today from a certain source, 12:09 out of the White House, may established with this..." 12:11 Well, I wouldn't want to particularize it 12:12 to the White House. 12:14 This is a view that's gaining currency, 12:16 and it's been exposed through this administration. 12:19 Yeah, let's send all Muslims somewhere, 12:22 all those religions we disagree with, or if you don't want... 12:24 The other expression is sort of similar, 12:26 "Well, if you don't like it, you know, move to Siberia." 12:29 You know, you've heard that expression. 12:31 I know. It's summarized under the term jingoism. 12:34 Yes, exactly. 12:36 But he says, "Who does not see that the same authority 12:38 which can establish Christianity 12:40 in exclusion of all other religions 12:41 may establish with the same ease, 12:43 any particular sect of Christians 12:46 in exclusion of all other sects or religious minorities." 12:50 Those they disagree with... 12:52 And that's reminded me of what... 12:53 At the moment, I think, an awful lot in the US 12:55 of what passes for discussion about religious liberty 12:58 and legal developments, it's entitlement, 13:01 religious entitlement. 13:03 For a particular religious viewpoint. Yes. 13:05 Not even a particular religion, it's a narrow subset. 13:08 Well, yes. 13:09 When we talk about prayer in public schools, 13:11 what are we talking about? 13:12 We're really talking about 13:14 Christian prayers in public schools. 13:15 And a certain type of Christian prayer. 13:16 Yes, exactly. So all others are excluded and... 13:21 My question to people is 13:22 are you going to water down those prayers 13:23 in such a way that all religions are included in? 13:27 How are you going to do that? 13:29 Well, the result is very often, the namby-pamby prayers... 13:32 It becomes a nonreligious statement. 13:34 Who it's being addressed to... 13:36 Yes, and it becomes abominable to the Baptist, 13:39 to the Adventists, to the Catholic, 13:41 to all other religions to say what kind of prayer is that. 13:43 We can't support that. 13:45 To you and me, it seems logical, 13:46 but for different movements, 13:48 they get enamored with this entitlement issue. 13:51 So why would Christians be for a government 13:53 sponsored prayer in public schools? 13:55 It just blows my mind. It doesn't make any sense. 13:57 Right. 13:59 Muse on that while we take a break, 14:00 and we'll be back shortly to continue the discussion 14:03 with Greg Hamilton 14:05 and this book that's focusing on the great constitution. |
Revised 2018-07-23