Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program that
I hope you watch regularly
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that brings news,
views, discussion,
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and up-to-date information
on religious liberty events
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in the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the
program is Gregory Hamilton,
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Greg Hamilton,
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President of the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association,
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and I know what you want
to talk about on this program.
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Your newest baby, right?
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Well, I... The book
that you put together.
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It's actually my first
published book in my life,
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so I'll just state it.
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But it's called Soul Liberty,
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Celebrating
America's First Freedom.
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And it's all about
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America's constitutional
founding and religious freedom,
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and how we got
to religious freedom
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from the time of the
pilgrims on the Mayflower
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to the Puritans to
The First Great Awakening
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and to the
Constitution founding,
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and especially
The Revolutionary War.
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And that just hit me, the title.
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You want to say where
you got the title from?
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Yeah, yes.
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Soul Liberty is a statement
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based upon a little pamphlet
that Roger Williams wrote,
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the founder of Rhode Island
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and a Baptist
itinerant preacher,
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and who had a
charter from the king
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to establish the
colony of Rhode Island.
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And what's
interesting about Roger Williams
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is that Soul
Liberty means the soul,
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meaning the conscience
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and the liberty of conscience
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is really what
soul liberty means
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and that's how it's defined.
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And so when we think
of liberty of conscience,
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liberty of conscience
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obviously is
religious freedom in essence.
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And one could say,
"Well, liberty of conscience
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is more than religious freedom."
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That's true,
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and that's what
Roger Williams meant it as.
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But one of the statements
that Roger Williams made
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that we have to remember,
and I'll just read it to you.
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"There goes many a ship to
sea with many souls in one ship
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whose weal and woe is a
true picture of society.
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Sometimes, Papists,
Protestants, Jews, and Turks,
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meaning Muslims may
be embarked in one ship,
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upon which I affirm
that all the liberty
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of conscience that ever I
pleaded for turns upon this
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that none be forced to come
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to the ship's prayers or worship
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nor be restrained
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from their own
particular prayers or a worship
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if they practice any."
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And that's key
because Roger Williams
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believed in
religious freedom for all,
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and he especially believed
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in a separation
of church at state
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and where the
state does not interfere
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with the religious conscience.
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I believe he was
the direct precursor to,
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you know, the Founding Fathers
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that actually put
the constitution together
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and formulated these principles.
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He's very close to my
historical sensibility
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because he's linked inextricably
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with the Puritan ideas
that led to the Civil War,
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and he himself was essentially
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the adopted son
of Sir Edward Coke,
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the Chief Justice of England
who legally set in motion
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a lot of what led to
the Puritan ascendance
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and I believe led very much
to the ideas that played out
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through the US Constitution.
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Exactly.
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And the wonderful
thing about Roger Williams is
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he really believed
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that the church should
remain separate from the state
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so that the church could be pure
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or could at least
attempt to have a pure society
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within itself.
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And that was
interesting because,
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you know, Roger Williams
had sort of a communal sense
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of government in the
way he looked at things,
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which is not the best.
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In fact, if you were
to take Roger Williams
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to his ultimate extreme,
you would call him a communist.
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And...
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Well, you could say that
of Acts, the book of Acts.
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Yeah, I know. I know.
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And he was true to his beliefs,
he was true to the Bible,
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and not that the
Bible is describing
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or promoting communism,
don't misunderstand me.
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But in a sense that
Roger Williams believed...
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Oh, it's communitarianism.
Yes, communitarianism.
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But in a sense in
which the community found
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its conscience
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directly answerable to God
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and not to any
church, not to any state,
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and, I think
that's vitally important.
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With this book,
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I intended to make it
available for legislators,
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for thought leaders
all throughout the country,
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for people of
faith, pastors, and so on
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but also for children
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because it's a
coffee-table book,
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excuse the term,
a coffee-table...
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You're forewarned,
I texted you before...
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Yes, yes, yes.
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As health reformers,
we believe in coffee.
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Well, whatever.
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I'm sure people
will get over that.
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But anyway, it is in
fact a coffee-table book,
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full of beautiful pictures
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on the America's
constitutional founding.
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And as one picture here,
that's one of my favorites,
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it's of the Mayflower ship.
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Very nice.
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And it starts my essay,
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The Fight for Religious Freedom,
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America's journey
in historical context.
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But what I seek to do is
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restore the magisterial
intent of the founders
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regarding religious freedom,
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and especially in regard
to the separation of powers,
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the three
branches of government.
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You know, when I think
of the conceptual origins
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of the Constitution
of the United States,
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it began actually around
the fires of Valley Forge
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during the Revolutionary
War against Britain,
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where George Washington
and Alexander Hamilton
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and John Marshall who'd
later become Chief Justice
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and was the nephew
of George Washington
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sat around the fires,
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actually constructing
the future government
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if they were to win
the Revolutionary War.
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And Alexander
Hamilton and John Marshall
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came up with this
separation of powers concept
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that is a fully
independent executive branch,
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a fully independent
congressional branch,
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and a fully
independent judicial branch,
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and it was ingenious,
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I mean, here they were
crafting the future government
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around the
fires, cold, cold nights
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where some soldiers
walking around with no shoes
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and bloody feet and gangrene
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and everything
else under the sun
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and, you know...
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Not under the
sun. Yeah, well, right.
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If they were under the
sun, there will be no problem.
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Yes, yes.
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But simultaneously
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James Madison who's dubbed
the Father of the Constitution
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was crafting the same formula
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for America's post-Revolutionary
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War experiment in
constitutional government.
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And one of the
things that we forget about
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is while the war was raging,
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another experiment was
taking place in Virginia.
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Virginia statute, excuse me,
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Virginia's Declaration of Rights
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was passed and adopted by
Virginia's General Assembly,
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and it was James Madison
who wrote in that declaration
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that all men are entitled
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to the free exercise of religion
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according to the
dictates of conscience.
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And shortly, thereafter in 1777,
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Thomas Jefferson penned
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the Virginia
Statute of Religious Freedom
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which was in
response to another bill
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put forward by Patrick Henry.
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Patrick Henry, you know,
the person who got up and said,
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"Give me liberty
or give me death."
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He was not a libertarian.
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Yeah. He had very
autocratic mindset. Yes.
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And in fact, most
people don't realize,
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you know, a lot of people
love to celebrate Patrick Henry,
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but he opposed the constitution,
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okay, and he
actually, in the end,
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despite he's being
in favor of calling
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for a Bill of
Rights, in the end,
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he couldn't bring
himself around to vote for it.
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Yeah. Okay, he was just a
naysayer all the way around.
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Probably a good guy,
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but as Thomas
Jefferson, James Madison...
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He was a rough diamond.
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He had a silver tongue
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but he didn't have
too bright of a mind.
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And so, you know, we
have to remember that.
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But James Madison
and Thomas Jefferson
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came up with Virginia
Statute of Religious Freedom
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in response to a bill
establishing a provision
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for teachers of
the Christian religion
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put together by Patrick Henry.
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It was a government funding bill
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that favored the Anglican Church
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over all other religions.
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In other words, basically,
it was a bill that said,
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"Yeah, we believe
that the Church of England
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should be disestablished
from the Assembly of Virginia,
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from the state of
Virginia, but at the same time,
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the predominant
religion must be favored.
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And he thought
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he was putting forward
a religious freedom bill,
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and James Madison and
Thomas Jefferson came back
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with a Virginia
Statute of Religious Freedom
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that says, "No, no,
this doesn't go far enough.
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We must have
absolute religious freedom
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which means a
complete separation
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from the church and state."
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And James... It was a
landmark. There's no question.
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James Madison wrote in his
15-point memorial remonstrance
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to try to influence all
the religious minorities
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to come together to
oppose Patrick Henry's bill,
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which was defeated in the end,
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and the Virginia Statute
of Religious Freedom passed.
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And by the way,
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the Virginia Statue
of Religious Freedom
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became the foundation
for the actual language
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for the first
amendment that we have today,
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especially the establishment
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and free exercise
clauses in the first amendment.
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Yeah, it's clearly, directly
modeled after it, isn't it?
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Yes, it is.
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Tell me
something 'cause, I think,
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for our viewers
we need to settle it.
00:09:51.35\00:09:52.69
Yes.
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The Madison's Memorial
and Remonstrance... Yes.
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I love what he wrote. Yes.
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But the continuing effort
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to characterize that
it's not written by him...
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No, no, no, no.
You're thinking of the...
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No, not Memorial Remonstrance,
it's the Memorandum, Madison's,
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it's called The Memorandum.
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That's different from
the Memorial Remonstrance.
00:10:12.84\00:10:15.24
Yeah, I thought even on this...
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No, no, it's a
Memorandum that's disputed,
00:10:16.64\00:10:19.41
not the Memorial Remonstrance.
00:10:19.45\00:10:21.32
But we know his views,
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my point I want to bring
out that he was very consistent,
00:10:23.49\00:10:27.42
it's not like
something was discovered
00:10:27.46\00:10:29.72
that took another angle.
00:10:29.76\00:10:31.76
Madison was very
plain on separation
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and the value of religion
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but not the state
not getting involved.
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Yeah, keep going.
00:10:39.27\00:10:40.67
Yeah, well, he wrote, he said,
00:10:40.70\00:10:42.87
"What influence in fact have
ecclesiastical establishments
00:10:42.90\00:10:47.08
had on civil society?
00:10:47.11\00:10:48.68
In some instances,
they have been seen
00:10:48.71\00:10:50.45
to erect a spiritual tyranny
00:10:50.48\00:10:52.31
on the ruins of civil authority.
00:10:52.35\00:10:55.02
In many instances,
they have been seen
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upholding the
thrones, a political tyranny.
00:10:56.79\00:10:59.59
In no instance
have they been seen
00:10:59.62\00:11:01.16
the guardians as the
liberties of the people."
00:11:01.19\00:11:03.22
In other words, he was saying,
00:11:03.26\00:11:04.69
"Hey, the
experiments of governments
00:11:04.73\00:11:07.23
and where the state
controls the church is bad.
00:11:07.26\00:11:10.77
The experiments
throughout the dark ages
00:11:10.80\00:11:12.53
in which the church, basically
00:11:12.57\00:11:14.84
threatened excommunication
of kings and emperors
00:11:14.87\00:11:17.24
where the church
controlled the state is bad.
00:11:17.27\00:11:19.54
Okay, we seek to create
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a model government
that does neither."
00:11:21.24\00:11:23.75
Okay, and so they
wanted to make sure
00:11:23.78\00:11:26.82
when they framed
their government,
00:11:26.85\00:11:28.58
they wanted to make sure
00:11:28.62\00:11:29.95
that the state
was completely free
00:11:29.98\00:11:31.79
and the church
was completely free,
00:11:31.82\00:11:34.09
they wanted to
create a win-win situation,
00:11:34.12\00:11:36.49
and that's what they created
with our constitutional system.
00:11:36.52\00:11:39.96
Madison wrote in 1832
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when challenged by a
Reverend Jasper Adams.
00:11:41.80\00:11:45.83
Adams pressed
Madison with the argument
00:11:45.87\00:11:47.47
that since most
Americans were Christian
00:11:47.50\00:11:49.97
that Christianity in general
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should be
constitutionally recognized
00:11:51.51\00:11:53.27
and funded by the government
in a nondiscriminatory way.
00:11:53.31\00:11:56.61
Mr. Madison
responded by writing this.
00:11:56.64\00:11:58.51
Here's what he said.
00:11:58.55\00:11:59.88
He said, "Who does not
see that the same authority
00:11:59.91\00:12:02.25
which can establish Christianity
00:12:02.28\00:12:04.42
in exclusion of
all other religions,
00:12:04.45\00:12:06.65
don't we hear that
today from a certain source,
00:12:06.69\00:12:09.02
out of the White House,
may established with this..."
00:12:09.06\00:12:11.59
Well, I wouldn't
want to particularize it
00:12:11.63\00:12:12.96
to the White House.
00:12:12.99\00:12:14.33
This is a view
that's gaining currency,
00:12:14.36\00:12:16.60
and it's been exposed
through this administration.
00:12:16.63\00:12:19.00
Yeah, let's send
all Muslims somewhere,
00:12:19.03\00:12:21.97
all those religions we disagree
with, or if you don't want...
00:12:22.00\00:12:24.61
The other
expression is sort of similar,
00:12:24.64\00:12:26.51
"Well, if you don't like
it, you know, move to Siberia."
00:12:26.54\00:12:29.64
You know, you've
heard that expression.
00:12:29.68\00:12:31.25
I know. It's summarized
under the term jingoism.
00:12:31.28\00:12:34.65
Yes, exactly.
00:12:34.68\00:12:36.18
But he says, "Who does not
see that the same authority
00:12:36.22\00:12:38.39
which can establish Christianity
00:12:38.42\00:12:40.09
in exclusion of
all other religions
00:12:40.12\00:12:41.69
may establish
with the same ease,
00:12:41.72\00:12:43.59
any particular
sect of Christians
00:12:43.63\00:12:46.33
in exclusion of all other
sects or religious minorities."
00:12:46.36\00:12:50.77
Those they disagree with...
00:12:50.80\00:12:52.13
And that's
reminded me of what...
00:12:52.17\00:12:53.50
At the moment, I
think, an awful lot in the US
00:12:53.54\00:12:55.57
of what passes for discussion
about religious liberty
00:12:55.60\00:12:58.47
and legal
developments, it's entitlement,
00:12:58.51\00:13:01.64
religious entitlement.
00:13:01.68\00:13:03.48
For a particular
religious viewpoint. Yes.
00:13:03.51\00:13:05.58
Not even a particular
religion, it's a narrow subset.
00:13:05.61\00:13:08.55
Well, yes.
00:13:08.58\00:13:09.92
When we talk about
prayer in public schools,
00:13:09.95\00:13:11.29
what are we talking about?
00:13:11.32\00:13:12.65
We're really talking about
00:13:12.69\00:13:14.02
Christian prayers
in public schools.
00:13:14.06\00:13:15.39
And a certain type
of Christian prayer.
00:13:15.42\00:13:16.76
Yes, exactly. So all
others are excluded and...
00:13:16.79\00:13:20.96
My question to people is
00:13:21.00\00:13:22.36
are you going to
water down those prayers
00:13:22.40\00:13:23.90
in such a way that all
religions are included in?
00:13:23.93\00:13:27.94
How are you going to do that?
00:13:27.97\00:13:29.30
Well, the result is very often,
the namby-pamby prayers...
00:13:29.34\00:13:32.64
It becomes a
nonreligious statement.
00:13:32.67\00:13:34.28
Who it's being addressed to...
00:13:34.31\00:13:36.11
Yes, and it becomes
abominable to the Baptist,
00:13:36.14\00:13:39.75
to the
Adventists, to the Catholic,
00:13:39.78\00:13:41.65
to all other religions to
say what kind of prayer is that.
00:13:41.68\00:13:43.89
We can't support that.
00:13:43.92\00:13:45.25
To you and me, it seems logical,
00:13:45.29\00:13:46.96
but for different movements,
00:13:46.99\00:13:48.52
they get enamored with
this entitlement issue.
00:13:48.56\00:13:51.56
So why would
Christians be for a government
00:13:51.59\00:13:53.83
sponsored prayer
in public schools?
00:13:53.86\00:13:55.26
It just blows my mind.
It doesn't make any sense.
00:13:55.30\00:13:57.77
Right.
00:13:57.80\00:13:59.13
Muse on that
while we take a break,
00:13:59.17\00:14:00.90
and we'll be back shortly
to continue the discussion
00:14:00.94\00:14:03.67
with Greg Hamilton
00:14:03.71\00:14:05.84
and this book that's focusing
on the great constitution.
00:14:05.87\00:14:09.68