Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000392B
|
00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break with guest Greg Hamilton, 00:10 we were riffing about... 00:12 Through the constitution what caused it, 00:14 what was the origins of the break with England 00:16 and, of course, religion played a big role, 00:21 Can I read you something from a book you gave me years ago? 00:24 Yes. Yes. 00:25 This will put the cat among the pigeons. 00:28 In religious liberty, 00:29 we're always talking about the constitution, 00:32 as we should, in a civil context, 00:33 especially with liberty, 00:35 we're sending it to people who make no... 00:37 That we know of particular religious profession, 00:39 we want them to see the legal basis 00:41 for what amounts to a spiritual concept. 00:45 But here's a very interesting quote 00:47 that I had read years ago, 00:48 but I hadn't realized that it informed comments 00:50 that I'd be making, especially to Adventists, 00:53 who sometimes get political loyalties mixed up 00:58 with civil constructs. 01:01 And this is what Jefferson said about the Constitution. 01:05 He says, "Some men look at constitutions 01:07 with sanctimonious reverence 01:10 and deem them like the Ark of the Covenant, 01:12 too sacred to be touched. 01:15 They ascribe to the men of the preceding age 01:17 a wisdom more than human, 01:19 and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment. 01:23 I knew that age well. 01:25 I belong to it, and labored with it. 01:27 It deserved well of its country. 01:28 It was very like the present, 01:30 but without the experience of the present, 01:32 and 40 years of experience in government 01:35 is worth a century of book reading, 01:36 and this they would say themselves, 01:38 were they to rise from the dead." 01:41 And then he says, 01:42 "I know also, that laws and institutions 01:45 must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. 01:48 As that becomes more developed, 01:49 more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, 01:51 new truths disclosed, 01:53 and manners and opinions change 01:54 with the change of circumstances, 01:56 institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. 02:01 We might as well require a man to wear still the coat 02:04 which fitted him when a boy, 02:06 as civilized society to remain 02:08 ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors." 02:14 Food for thought, right? 02:15 Well, the problem is there wasn't much 02:18 constitution writing before the American experiment. 02:21 So the problem with Jefferson statement, 02:23 I understand what he's saying, 02:24 but really what he was dealing with was our own constitution, 02:27 and he... 02:28 This is what's fascinating about his statement. 02:30 I don't want to get too far off. 02:31 It seems to me that that's the death knell 02:33 to the big argument between the living constitutionalists 02:37 and the originalists. 02:39 Well, yes, I would say that both have an argument. 02:43 I would say that that both are right, both are wrong, 02:46 taken to their extremes as with any argument. 02:49 But let's... 02:51 But let me rephrase what I take from that. 02:53 Yes. 02:54 You and I believe in biblical truth 02:56 and absolute moral principles. 02:59 I think to a greater degree 03:01 than any constitution I know of, 03:03 they are embedded in the US Constitution, 03:07 but we must never confuse the secular construct 03:10 with the great moral truth that might be embedded in it. 03:14 And there are many people that are so in love 03:17 with the constitution believing if it's correctly explicated, 03:23 it will always up hold absolute truth. 03:25 That can't be true of any human device. 03:28 I don't think original intent can be thoroughly discovered 03:32 or nailed down. 03:34 In that sense, I believe in a living constitution. 03:36 However, I believe that people like Madison and Jefferson 03:40 when they are at a point in history 03:44 where they're not only tired of the control 03:46 of the Church of England, 03:47 and the so-called divine right of kings 03:50 to tell them what to do, and how to live, 03:51 and actually how to be saved, 03:54 in a spiritual sense, they broke free from that, 03:57 and right when Thomas Jefferson 03:59 was writing the Declaration of Independence, 04:01 James Madison was writing 04:04 the Virginia's Declaration of Rights 04:06 which was adopted 04:07 by Virginia's General Assembly that same year. 04:09 And he wrote this declaration, he says, 04:11 "All men are entitled to the free exercise of religion, 04:14 according to the dictates of conscience." 04:16 And then shortly, thereafter, 04:17 in just literally over a couple months in 1777, 04:21 Jefferson drafted Virginia's Statute 04:23 to Religious Freedom. 04:24 Those weren't any coincidence, okay? 04:26 The Declaration of Independence, 04:28 the Virginia's Declaration of Rights, 04:30 the Virginia's Statute of Religious Freedom, 04:32 which all became foundational 04:34 to establishing not only our constitutional system 04:37 but the first amendment to the constitution 04:40 which was drafted in 1789 04:43 by the first Congress in New York City. 04:45 So I think that when you look at all of this, 04:47 the foundation was being laid over religious freedom 04:50 in the separation of church and state. 04:52 Right. One thing follows after the other. 04:53 Yes. 04:54 We're not too far on depending 04:56 when this is shown from the 2017 05:00 500th anniversary remembrance of the Lutheran's Reformation. 05:06 And I did something... 05:08 Because my memory was failing a bit, 05:10 and I did something that I don't think 05:12 anyone much is done during that anniversary, 05:15 I went back and read the 95 Theses. 05:18 And every last one of them deals with authority 05:22 or the lack of what authority did the pope have to tell you 05:27 to believe or you couldn't go through God. 05:30 Yes. 05:31 And I believe this is the outgrowth of, 05:33 even though Jefferson was not a classic religionist. 05:38 The view had taken root that Luther started. 05:41 No human being can tell another 05:44 how to worship and what to do. 05:46 So that's the outgrowth of the Reformation. 05:48 Let me put into... 05:49 And clearly a puritanism. 05:50 There are God inspired revolutions 05:52 and then there are ungodly revolutions, 05:54 we know that. 05:55 We know that there is disaster 05:58 evil types of revolution only seeks to serve self, 06:01 and then there are other revolutions 06:03 that actually seek to better mankind 06:08 and for the greater good. 06:09 And I think that the American Revolution 06:12 was one of those that sought the better good. 06:14 And it's been a model for generations 06:16 for every nation throughout the world. 06:18 And so I cannot say... 06:21 I mean, I agree with Jefferson, 06:23 you cannot worship the constitution 06:24 neither can you worship the founders per se. 06:27 And in this Jefferson was saying, 06:28 "We cannot do that," all right? 06:30 Another words, "Don't worship us, 06:31 don't worship the constitution because it's always amendable," 06:35 which is the essence of what you read, 06:37 and I appreciate that. 06:38 But when we look at just the foundational premise 06:44 of our constitutional founding, 06:46 to me, without the emphasis on religious freedom, 06:50 we really don't have a righteous cause as a nation 06:53 when our nation was founded. 06:55 If religious freedom was not part of that package, 06:58 where would our nation be today? 06:59 We'd be just like any other barbarous nation on the planet. 07:02 Does that make our nation righteous now? 07:04 No, we've gone far afield 07:06 from the intent of what the founders saw. 07:09 I mean, whether we like to admit it or not, 07:12 even the puritans had some conscionable good things 07:18 to render to our founders 07:19 in terms of righteousness and holiness, 07:21 so we can agree to that. 07:23 Yeah. 07:24 Well, was it Shakespeare that said, think, 07:30 "Doth protest too much." 07:33 Yes. 07:34 I don't believe it's necessary to prove 07:38 that at the time of the War of Independence 07:42 that it was 100% righteous cause from beginning to end. 07:46 Oh, absolutely, I feel that. 07:47 You know, the history of it. 07:49 I mean, it's the hidden history as there was agitation, 07:53 it's read all the different towns' 07:55 government agents 07:56 who many were the part of the citizenry 07:58 but, you know, there are magistrates representative, 08:00 they would tad unfair that and... 08:02 And that sounds nice tad unfair like sort of in a Disney movie, 08:06 one guy that they punctured his intestines 08:10 through the nails on the road and he died grotesquely. 08:14 It was not totally unlike 08:16 some of the elements of the French Revolution... 08:18 Not sure I can get that out of my head there, Lincoln. 08:20 No. Yeah. 08:22 I read a long book on this recently, 08:25 and that tells that... 08:26 Yeah, that's pretty bad. 08:28 A quite bad. 08:29 It was butchery. 08:30 I don't think anyone could condemn that 08:32 that was a society somewhat running amok 08:35 at root there were good ideas, 08:38 and that's what I think we need to cherish 08:39 what came out of this experience. 08:41 You can see the thread from the Reformation, 08:45 you can see people of high-moral intent as Jefferson, 08:51 personal failings on the side, 08:53 but I think the end of it was we've put down in writing, 08:56 and your book is featuring this big time. 08:59 In writing, we have a wonderful idealistic statement 09:02 to try to prove that the US has kept that ever. 09:06 Oh, no. Yeah. No. 09:09 It's the ultimate last cause. 09:11 No, we're going on the road of failure now. 09:12 Right. 09:14 But it might have followed them better than most countries, 09:16 and I think that's easily proven. 09:19 It's a guiding light, 09:21 and the constitution shouldn't be thrown away. 09:24 As you and I know, 09:25 writing to Seventh-day Adventists, 09:27 and we believe with some divine inspiration, 09:29 Ellen White said that the time will come 09:32 when this country will actually... 09:34 The word she uses is repudiate 09:36 every principle of the constitution. 09:38 But that will be a sad day when that comes. 09:40 But both Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin 09:43 and others didn't believe 09:44 that the constitution was last 19 or even 50 years. 09:47 No, that's why I quoted that. 09:48 And so for our constitution to last as long as it has... 09:52 It's been pretty good. 09:53 Is really pretty amazing when you think about it. 09:55 Absolutely. 09:56 Now it's pretty difficult to get started on another subject, 10:00 but I will say this, 10:01 when it comes to America's constitutional founding, 10:05 I believe we have to understand 10:07 that when people say, "Well, it wasn't God-ordained 10:10 or that God had nothing to do with it." 10:11 I disagree with that, 10:13 I believe that was God-ordained, 10:14 I believe that God had everything to do with it 10:17 in terms of directing the minds of men 10:20 to not only seek freedom 10:22 but to be a beacon of light and freedom 10:24 to all other nations around the world. 10:26 Well, it's the catch-22 between foreknowledge 10:28 and predestination. 10:30 Yes, that's true. 10:31 I'm sure that... 10:32 I referred it this way, as it exemplified, 10:35 the movement exemplified these principles of freedom, 10:37 and religious liberty, and so on, 10:38 it was fulfilling God's design for mankind. 10:41 Yes. 10:43 And so in the history of truth through the ages, 10:45 I think this country will have a bright spot, 10:48 there's no question. 10:49 Absolutely. 10:51 And when you really think about 10:52 America's Constitution founding, 10:54 we have to look at it, in my opinion, 10:56 from a religious liberty's perspective 10:58 because it is America's first freedom. 11:01 Without religious freedom, we have no true freedom. 11:05 I mean, if we only had secular freedom alone, 11:08 where would we be as a country? 11:09 And I really believe we have to consider 11:12 that point as foundational. 11:14 And so thank God for people like Jefferson, 11:17 and James Madison, and George Washington, 11:19 and Alexander Hamilton. 11:24 Soul Liberty is more than just a good title for a good book, 11:28 and I can recommend that you do what you can 11:30 to get a copy of Greg Hamilton's 11:33 wonderful, think, table book. 11:39 Small joke there. 11:40 But Soul Liberty goes to the very root 11:43 of what I think the religion clauses 11:46 or clause was designed to accomplish, 11:48 not underscore the authority of a secular state, 11:53 but as Thomas Jefferson said 11:54 in the Declaration of Independence to recognize 11:57 that we have inherent rights, 12:00 nature and nature's God, 12:01 yeah, that sounds sort of paganistic 12:04 but in reality, of course, God, 12:06 the Creator God is nature's God. 12:08 Freedom, true liberty, soul liberty must come from God 12:15 and any state that recognizes that will be secure, 12:18 and the freedom that's advancing 12:20 will remain sure. 12:22 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2018-07-23