Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider,
00:00:05.07\00:00:06.80
before the break
with Tina Ramirez.
00:00:06.84\00:00:10.41
We were really focusing
more in on the United States
00:00:10.44\00:00:13.44
and religious liberty here,
00:00:13.48\00:00:14.81
and what's the
state of the union.
00:00:14.84\00:00:17.25
And obviously
it's always going to be
00:00:17.28\00:00:20.85
because of the
constitution and our history,
00:00:20.88\00:00:23.22
something that
defines the United States,
00:00:23.25\00:00:26.39
but I think there's a little
ambiguity moving in, isn't it?
00:00:26.42\00:00:30.29
People aren't real clear.
00:00:30.33\00:00:31.69
And as you, I
think privately said
00:00:31.73\00:00:34.10
this is a society
where people don't always
00:00:34.13\00:00:38.13
define themselves
by religious identity,
00:00:38.17\00:00:40.70
but of secularism,
00:00:40.74\00:00:42.80
but there's a good
argument for secularists
00:00:42.84\00:00:45.17
to uphold religious freedom too,
00:00:45.21\00:00:47.34
because it's part of the glue
00:00:47.38\00:00:48.71
that binds
society together, right?
00:00:48.74\00:00:51.48
Except possibly in one place,
00:00:51.51\00:00:52.85
I mean, one of the
most religious places
00:00:52.88\00:00:54.22
we have in America right
now is probably in football.
00:00:54.25\00:00:57.92
But you can't...
00:00:57.95\00:00:59.29
Well, we can say
sacredly which is...
00:00:59.32\00:01:00.66
But you can't
watch a game without...
00:01:00.69\00:01:02.02
I mean, yeah, but it's
sacred in America in many ways.
00:01:02.06\00:01:04.69
Yes, its own religion.
00:01:04.73\00:01:06.53
But how often do you
see them very honestly
00:01:06.56\00:01:10.90
and just boldly
sharing their faith,
00:01:10.93\00:01:14.84
you know, in public,
00:01:14.87\00:01:16.20
I mean, that's one of few places
00:01:16.24\00:01:17.57
in public life that we see it,
00:01:17.61\00:01:18.94
where no one's going to say
anything against it, you know.
00:01:18.97\00:01:21.74
It's refreshing
in many ways that,
00:01:21.78\00:01:24.51
you know that anyway.
00:01:24.55\00:01:26.18
It's not all but I'm
inclined to lump it in
00:01:26.21\00:01:30.19
with what the Supreme
Court called not that,
00:01:30.22\00:01:33.22
but other public
religious displays
00:01:33.25\00:01:36.12
calls them ceremonial deism.
00:01:36.16\00:01:38.16
Right, but what we see though
00:01:38.19\00:01:39.53
in that is that it's
still part of the culture
00:01:39.56\00:01:41.30
that there is
still religious aspect
00:01:41.33\00:01:44.63
to the culture in public life
00:01:44.67\00:01:46.00
that you can't
completely stamp out.
00:01:46.03\00:01:48.14
And so in our
culture we definitely,
00:01:48.17\00:01:49.80
you see a lot of the media
00:01:49.84\00:01:51.17
that wants to
secularize the public space,
00:01:51.21\00:01:54.94
but there are certain
things that, you know,
00:01:54.98\00:01:56.78
just whenever, you
know, that normally...
00:01:56.81\00:01:58.55
Or another way of
putting it which I,
00:01:58.58\00:02:00.02
you know, I came as a teenager
the first time to the US
00:02:00.05\00:02:02.42
from another
country, and in Australia,
00:02:02.45\00:02:05.42
not a very
religious country anyhow,
00:02:05.45\00:02:07.16
people don't particularly
want to talk about religion,
00:02:07.19\00:02:09.32
it's off the table.
00:02:09.36\00:02:10.86
But in America
still to this day,
00:02:10.89\00:02:13.13
it's an acceptable topic,
00:02:13.16\00:02:15.16
so there's not
public embarrassment
00:02:15.20\00:02:17.30
about religion.
00:02:17.33\00:02:18.67
But I...
00:02:18.70\00:02:20.04
Me personally, I think
religion shouldn't be associated
00:02:20.07\00:02:23.61
with football games and so on,
00:02:23.64\00:02:25.37
and when I hear a preacher on...
00:02:25.41\00:02:26.98
For me on Sabbath, Saturday,
00:02:27.01\00:02:29.04
if he starts off
00:02:29.08\00:02:30.41
with a sports
example, I switch off.
00:02:30.45\00:02:32.71
I figure he's mixing sacred
00:02:32.75\00:02:34.12
with profane too
much for my liking.
00:02:34.15\00:02:35.52
But what I mean is,
00:02:35.55\00:02:36.89
you see a lot of
professional athletes
00:02:36.92\00:02:38.75
very expressive of their faith
in a way that the cultural.
00:02:38.79\00:02:42.62
The culture is
generally antagonistic.
00:02:42.66\00:02:45.73
The culture doesn't want us
to be public about our faith.
00:02:45.76\00:02:48.56
And so, you see these attacks
on religion in public life
00:02:48.60\00:02:51.73
in many forms.
00:02:51.77\00:02:54.27
You've got the
major immigration case
00:02:54.30\00:02:55.64
that went to Supreme Court
00:02:55.67\00:02:57.01
a couple of
months ago of the baker.
00:02:57.04\00:02:58.74
And over whether the baker
should be allowed to choose
00:02:58.77\00:03:04.25
to not perform a
service for somebody
00:03:04.28\00:03:07.52
that would condone a sacrament,
00:03:07.55\00:03:10.49
a religious sacrament
that violates their faith.
00:03:10.52\00:03:13.56
And so, your public
expression of your faith,
00:03:13.59\00:03:15.99
can you, you know,
can you do it in...
00:03:16.02\00:03:18.39
And there's a
conscience issue involved.
00:03:18.43\00:03:20.20
Right, right.
00:03:20.23\00:03:21.56
At the same time it
scares me, I think some of it is
00:03:21.60\00:03:24.03
what I call
religious entitlement.
00:03:24.07\00:03:26.10
They're not
concerned for the other person,
00:03:26.13\00:03:27.54
they're wanting to sort
00:03:27.57\00:03:28.90
of shove their view
down to the customer.
00:03:28.94\00:03:31.07
Some people
might see it that way,
00:03:31.11\00:03:32.44
but some people might see
it as, I mean, ultimately,
00:03:32.47\00:03:35.48
if you have...
00:03:35.51\00:03:39.45
You should not be
forced to perform an act
00:03:39.48\00:03:42.32
that would
violate your conscience
00:03:42.35\00:03:43.72
about a specific sacrament.
00:03:43.75\00:03:45.09
No, as a matter of principle,
that's absolutely true.
00:03:45.12\00:03:46.96
No, it doesn't mean
that you don't serve
00:03:46.99\00:03:48.32
the person in other
ways, but it just means that,
00:03:48.36\00:03:50.36
when it comes to
religious sacrament,
00:03:50.39\00:03:51.73
that's a different standard
00:03:51.76\00:03:53.09
that would be
applied than a general,
00:03:53.13\00:03:54.50
you know, general
cake for any other purpose.
00:03:54.53\00:03:56.50
And I think that's the challenge
00:03:56.53\00:03:57.87
is that in the public space
00:03:57.90\00:03:59.23
we see a lot of conflict
00:03:59.27\00:04:05.74
or, you know,
confrontation occurring
00:04:05.77\00:04:07.48
when you have equal opportunity,
00:04:07.51\00:04:10.98
certain rights
coming into conflict
00:04:11.01\00:04:12.35
like marriage rights,
00:04:12.38\00:04:13.72
and other sexual
orientation rights.
00:04:13.75\00:04:15.08
And so we're gonna see
00:04:15.12\00:04:16.45
more and more of
that in the future.
00:04:16.48\00:04:17.82
Well, yes,
00:04:17.85\00:04:19.19
the conflict of
rights, absolutely.
00:04:19.22\00:04:20.56
You've had an
interesting career so far
00:04:20.59\00:04:22.76
and it's hardly over,
just beginning I guess.
00:04:22.79\00:04:25.06
But you know,
00:04:25.09\00:04:26.43
you worked
closely in Washington.
00:04:26.46\00:04:28.06
Explain some of the mechanisms
we have that you've seen
00:04:28.10\00:04:31.63
and where we are now
on government support
00:04:31.67\00:04:35.07
and protection of
religious liberty.
00:04:35.10\00:04:37.27
Right, most people
are probably not aware
00:04:37.31\00:04:39.07
that the United
States government
00:04:39.11\00:04:40.48
actually has a
pretty robust policy
00:04:40.51\00:04:42.74
for protecting religious freedom
00:04:42.78\00:04:44.35
internationally and globally.
00:04:44.38\00:04:46.35
And so in 1998
00:04:46.38\00:04:47.95
we had the International
Religious Freedom Act,
00:04:47.98\00:04:50.59
ARFA,
00:04:50.62\00:04:51.95
that's what it's
called for short of 1998,
00:04:51.99\00:04:53.62
there was a bill to
reinforce ARFA that was,
00:04:53.66\00:04:56.93
that was passed
last year in 2017,
00:04:56.96\00:04:58.86
the Frank Wolf
Religious Freedom Act.
00:04:58.89\00:05:02.33
Yes, I never thought of
it as a follow on to that.
00:05:02.36\00:05:05.27
It basically bolstered
the original ARFA Act of 1998,
00:05:05.30\00:05:09.14
but under ARFA what it did,
00:05:09.17\00:05:10.71
it has established a
State Department office
00:05:10.74\00:05:13.21
focused on religious
freedom internationally,
00:05:13.24\00:05:15.71
and so now every embassy
in every United States embassy
00:05:15.74\00:05:18.98
in the world
provides a report specifically
00:05:19.01\00:05:21.78
on that country's
respect for religious freedom
00:05:21.82\00:05:25.85
as a human right.
00:05:25.89\00:05:27.22
And it's, I mean, it's
a very extensive report,
00:05:27.26\00:05:29.96
you can look it up on the
State Department's website,
00:05:29.99\00:05:32.43
and then in addition there
was an ambassador appointed
00:05:32.46\00:05:36.30
to oversee that office.
00:05:36.33\00:05:38.20
And we've had
several ambassadors
00:05:38.23\00:05:40.24
in that position over
the last almost 20 years now.
00:05:40.27\00:05:43.91
And then in the coming weeks
we'll see the newest ambassador
00:05:43.94\00:05:48.68
that President
Trump has appointed,
00:05:48.71\00:05:51.15
be confirmed by the US Senate.
00:05:51.18\00:05:52.65
So that's gonna
be Sam Brownback,
00:05:52.68\00:05:54.35
the current governor of Kansas.
00:05:54.38\00:05:56.28
Then in addition to that,
00:05:56.32\00:05:57.65
we also have under ARFA
was established a commission
00:05:57.69\00:06:01.46
that's an independent
body that reports to Congress
00:06:01.49\00:06:06.09
and provides recommendations
on what countries
00:06:06.13\00:06:08.80
based on the
State Department reports
00:06:08.83\00:06:10.67
should be sanctioned
00:06:10.70\00:06:12.50
because the
violations or religious freedom
00:06:12.53\00:06:14.20
are so egregious.
00:06:14.24\00:06:15.90
Now the commission that
was, that reports to Congress,
00:06:15.94\00:06:18.24
but it was within the
State Department, isn't it?
00:06:18.27\00:06:20.11
No, it's not within
the State Department.
00:06:20.14\00:06:21.48
I always thought
it was, I don't know.
00:06:21.51\00:06:22.84
No, no, so the State
Department has its own office
00:06:22.88\00:06:24.55
and then the commission
is just an independent body.
00:06:24.58\00:06:27.42
It's not necessarily a
government agency even,
00:06:27.45\00:06:29.08
it's just an independent
government commission.
00:06:29.12\00:06:31.82
Yeah, I know
there was a little...
00:06:31.85\00:06:33.79
It wasn't the direct
line of communication,
00:06:33.82\00:06:35.92
but I did think they were
00:06:35.96\00:06:37.29
within the department, let's go.
00:06:37.33\00:06:38.66
Yeah, so they report to Congress
00:06:38.69\00:06:40.03
and they provide a
report over the year.
00:06:40.06\00:06:41.40
Yeah, like ombudsmen almost.
00:06:41.43\00:06:42.76
Usually I think
in May, May or June
00:06:42.80\00:06:44.13
is when the reports come out,
00:06:44.17\00:06:45.70
the State Department's report
00:06:45.73\00:06:47.30
just came out on who
they're going to name
00:06:47.34\00:06:49.40
as countries of
particular concern.
00:06:49.44\00:06:51.71
And once they've named a country
00:06:51.74\00:06:53.17
as a country of
particular concern or a CPC,
00:06:53.21\00:06:56.31
then that country requires
that the State Department,
00:06:56.34\00:06:58.58
Secretary State
take certain actions
00:06:58.61\00:07:01.02
including sanctions but
it could be other actions
00:07:01.05\00:07:03.82
to help that country move
00:07:03.85\00:07:05.75
from an egregious
violator of religious freedom
00:07:05.79\00:07:07.92
into a better position.
00:07:07.96\00:07:09.76
So the goal was really to
try to get countries to...
00:07:09.79\00:07:13.83
Remove themselves from the...
00:07:13.86\00:07:15.20
Yeah, to move
towards greater respect
00:07:15.23\00:07:16.67
for religious freedom,
00:07:16.70\00:07:18.03
but we've had ARFA since 1998,
00:07:18.07\00:07:20.40
it's almost 20 years.
00:07:20.44\00:07:21.77
And we haven't really seen
00:07:21.80\00:07:25.77
a large change
in many countries,
00:07:25.81\00:07:27.54
we've had certain
things happen but then,
00:07:27.58\00:07:29.54
in top of all of
that you have Congress
00:07:29.58\00:07:31.38
and you have what they do.
00:07:31.41\00:07:32.75
And so the US
Congress has many members
00:07:32.78\00:07:35.12
that are very active
in religious freedom.
00:07:35.15\00:07:37.79
And when I was there obviously,
you know, that I helped found
00:07:37.82\00:07:40.52
and direct the
International Religious Freedom
00:07:40.56\00:07:42.46
caucus that included members
from both sides of the aisle,
00:07:42.49\00:07:46.36
so half Republican,
half Democrat that focused
00:07:46.39\00:07:49.06
on religious freedom issues.
00:07:49.10\00:07:50.43
Now there's a
congressional subcommittee
00:07:50.47\00:07:52.60
on religious
freedom, wasn't that too?
00:07:52.63\00:07:54.54
Yes, there's a subcommittee
that handles human rights.
00:07:54.57\00:07:57.61
What was Congressman Frank's...
00:07:57.64\00:08:03.45
He was a chair of some...?
00:08:03.48\00:08:04.81
The caucus. The caucus, okay.
00:08:04.85\00:08:06.28
Yeah, yeah, so
that was the caucus
00:08:06.31\00:08:07.65
that we started and
we started it in 2017,
00:08:07.68\00:08:09.65
so it's been going
for over 10 years now.
00:08:09.68\00:08:11.42
So who is dealing with that now?
00:08:11.45\00:08:14.29
So the current chairs of
the international religions
00:08:14.32\00:08:16.99
from caucus in Congress,
00:08:17.03\00:08:19.19
our Congressmen Gus
Bilirakis of Tampa, Florida,
00:08:19.23\00:08:22.06
and then on the Republican
side and then Vaughn Vargus
00:08:22.10\00:08:25.33
and Emanuel Cleaver
on the Democratic side.
00:08:25.37\00:08:29.60
And they're both,
00:08:29.64\00:08:30.97
they're all great
members of Congress,
00:08:31.01\00:08:32.34
they've done a
lot of great things.
00:08:32.37\00:08:33.74
Emanuel Cleaver was a
former Methodist minister,
00:08:33.78\00:08:36.11
so he was always a lot
of fun to work with and...
00:08:36.14\00:08:38.41
Yeah, I'm aware of him.
00:08:38.45\00:08:40.28
And Vargus has a very large
Iraqi Christian population,
00:08:40.32\00:08:42.85
so they're both
very active on this.
00:08:42.88\00:08:44.32
So, you know, the US is like
00:08:44.35\00:08:46.12
all human
structures or conglomerations,
00:08:46.15\00:08:49.89
you know, it has
its ups and downs,
00:08:49.92\00:08:51.26
but structurally
I think it's great
00:08:51.29\00:08:53.29
that we have the ambassador,
we have the commission
00:08:53.33\00:08:58.40
and then
supporting groups in Congress.
00:08:58.43\00:09:02.77
So we have a mechanism,
00:09:02.80\00:09:04.77
even though at various times...
00:09:04.81\00:09:06.14
I remember one
secretary of state went to China
00:09:06.17\00:09:09.51
and said openly
that the civil liberties
00:09:09.54\00:09:12.65
were not really gonna
be on the front burner
00:09:12.68\00:09:14.68
of that visit.
00:09:14.72\00:09:16.05
Secretary Flynn. Well,
I didn't know the name.
00:09:16.08\00:09:17.95
You know, that was unfortunate,
00:09:17.99\00:09:19.32
but in the long run
and in the aggregate the US
00:09:19.35\00:09:22.02
I think is clearly
taking a lead in civil
00:09:22.06\00:09:24.96
and religious liberties
pushing other countries.
00:09:24.99\00:09:27.30
And I can definitely
tell you that in the time
00:09:27.33\00:09:29.26
that I worked on these issues
under former President Bush
00:09:29.30\00:09:33.37
and then under President Obama,
00:09:33.40\00:09:34.74
now under President
Trump, with the US Congress
00:09:34.77\00:09:37.31
that there has been a difference
00:09:37.34\00:09:41.24
in how each
administration handles it.
00:09:41.28\00:09:43.55
So ultimately what you see
00:09:43.58\00:09:46.41
is that when it's a
priority of the administration,
00:09:46.45\00:09:49.72
there is a lot more
emphasis in the embassies
00:09:49.75\00:09:52.45
on addressing problems
quickly and succinctly.
00:09:52.49\00:09:55.46
But when the
administration doesn't make it
00:09:55.49\00:09:56.83
a high priority, it
isn't taking it seriously
00:09:56.86\00:09:59.69
and it takes a lot longer
to get people out of prison
00:09:59.73\00:10:01.93
or to address dangerous
laws in certain countries.
00:10:01.96\00:10:04.50
So it makes it very
difficult for the people
00:10:04.53\00:10:06.30
who are being persecuted
or suffering on the ground.
00:10:06.33\00:10:08.37
I think that
under President Bush
00:10:08.40\00:10:10.24
it was a high
priority, under President Obama
00:10:10.27\00:10:11.71
it was not one of
his top priorities,
00:10:11.74\00:10:13.14
he had a lot of other
issues like women's rights
00:10:13.17\00:10:15.78
and other rights
that were more important.
00:10:15.81\00:10:17.65
And under President
Trump we haven't really seen
00:10:17.68\00:10:20.22
where that will play out,
00:10:20.25\00:10:21.62
we know that it's
a priority in the UN
00:10:21.65\00:10:24.32
but not necessarily,
00:10:24.35\00:10:25.69
we're not sure
into his administration
00:10:25.72\00:10:27.06
where that would fall.
00:10:27.09\00:10:30.56
There's a lot of talk of late
00:10:30.59\00:10:32.09
about making
America great again,
00:10:32.13\00:10:34.93
different people mean
different things by that.
00:10:34.96\00:10:37.47
But when America's
greatness is truly analyzed,
00:10:37.50\00:10:41.40
it must be
recognized to start military,
00:10:41.44\00:10:44.67
it's not necessarily economic,
it's the greatness of ideas.
00:10:44.71\00:10:50.45
And one of the greatest ideas
00:10:50.48\00:10:52.88
that has
characterized the United States
00:10:52.91\00:10:54.68
from the beginning, is
it not always realized,
00:10:54.72\00:10:58.52
but a constantly
restated affirmation
00:10:58.55\00:11:01.72
of the universal rights
of man, and in particular,
00:11:01.76\00:11:05.13
the right of people
to religious freedom.
00:11:05.16\00:11:08.76
Of course, true
religious freedom
00:11:08.80\00:11:10.13
only comes directly from God,
00:11:10.17\00:11:11.83
He gives and no
man can take away.
00:11:11.87\00:11:14.17
But for a
country in a Constitution
00:11:14.20\00:11:16.17
to acknowledge
this abiding reality
00:11:16.20\00:11:19.51
is what has made
00:11:19.54\00:11:21.08
and will continue to
keep the United States great.
00:11:21.11\00:11:25.08
That is something
that needs to be realized
00:11:25.11\00:11:27.55
and no matter what
the government does
00:11:27.58\00:11:29.12
and how it projects itself,
00:11:29.15\00:11:30.92
it must be kept great
for religious liberty.
00:11:30.95\00:11:35.36
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:11:35.39\00:11:38.23