Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000390A
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00:28 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:29 This is a program 00:30 that brings you news, updates, analysis, 00:33 and general information on religious liberty events 00:36 in the US and around the world. 00:38 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine. 00:41 And my guest on this program is Tina Ramirez, 00:45 founder and president of Hardwired. 00:48 And not the first time you've been on this program. 00:50 I'm sure we have regular viewers 00:52 that already heard you explain your organization 00:55 which is doing leading edge education 00:58 all around the world, 01:00 but what impresses me particularly 01:01 is in Iraq dealing with people who have been damaged 01:05 by that whole civil war situation, 01:07 ISIS and so on. 01:09 But you also have a background working 01:13 at quite high levels in the US government. 01:17 How about you? What are your positions? 01:19 I don't want to characterize them. 01:20 No, no, it's okay. Thank you for having me here. 01:21 I know you worked in congressional offices 01:23 in different advisory capacities. 01:27 So let's talk a little bit about the US. 01:29 In my view the US, 01:31 like every country is facing severe challenges 01:34 on all levels at the moment, and with the political, 01:39 maybe not instability 01:40 but political dynamism of the moment. 01:43 I think we're even having to sort of look again, 01:46 you know, what religious liberties, 01:47 civil liberties, how do they fit into this. 01:50 You know, what's the situation today, 01:52 it clearly is not business as usual, is it? 01:55 No, and thank you for having me again, Lincoln. 01:58 It's great to be with you. My pleasure. 01:59 Yeah, so Hardwired organization 02:02 that I founded provides education 02:04 and training in religious freedom 02:05 around the world, 02:07 and establishes leadership in countries 02:08 where there is none, 02:09 so that we can begin to turn the tide against persecution. 02:11 But obviously 02:13 this is still a hot issue in America 02:14 and in many western countries, 02:17 where the freedom is beginning to come under attack 02:20 or just is being threatened in different ways. 02:23 And, so it's been interesting 02:25 because at the organization we've been looking 02:27 at how do you raise up younger generations 02:30 to care about this human right in order to preserve it 02:33 for not only people around the world, 02:35 but for future generations here as well. 02:36 But now, preserve it for today. Yeah, right here, great. 02:38 Right here, it's great. 02:40 So this is something that we've been looking at 02:42 and in working in the US Congress, 02:44 we focused primarily 02:45 on international religious freedom issues 02:48 but also on some domestic issues as well. 02:50 So it's a very different landscape here 02:56 in the United States than it is in other countries, 02:59 it's not life and death realities, 03:01 but it's still, 03:03 there are many issues in America 03:04 where the freedom of conscience 03:06 is definitely coming under threat in diverse ways, 03:11 and on both sides of the aisle. 03:12 So it's a very interesting time. 03:14 Well, it's not, maybe not life or death, 03:17 you know, that your head's gonna be severed at the moment, 03:20 but people's livelihood is often on the line 03:24 and you can't survive long without reasonable income 03:27 and the place in society, so it's very important. 03:30 Right, and I think that one of the greatest challenges 03:32 is that the general public 03:34 just isn't aware of the implications 03:37 of limiting the freedom of conscience and belief 03:42 for people of faith, 03:44 you know, people across the country. 03:46 And so, when you come from a community, 03:47 religious community 03:49 that this is embedded in who you are, 03:52 you know, taking the Sabbath day 03:53 and keeping it holy, not working another community. 03:58 I mean there are a lot 03:59 of different religious communities 04:01 like Jehovah's Witnesses 04:02 that, you know, the blood transfusion issue, 04:04 or if you look are not pledging the allegiance, certain things, 04:08 I mean, there are a lot of communities 04:09 that have certain conscientious objections 04:12 or two different issues as a matter of faith. 04:15 And for them 04:17 it would be their ability to live out their faith 04:21 is being threatened right now by a society that wants to say, 04:24 no, you should have 04:26 to just fall in line with the culture. 04:28 Sort of the uniformity. Right. 04:30 And what you're getting at, 04:31 I don't know if you've ever expressed 04:33 or thought of it this way, 04:34 but to me this true religious liberty 04:36 that you understand very well and we talk about. 04:40 But a lot of what passes through religious liberty now 04:42 is religious entitlement, like my group wants this, 04:47 I'm restricted, 04:48 couldn't even be Seventh-day Adventist, 04:50 I mean, we're not necessarily doing that, but it could be, 04:52 I'm fighting for accommodation on my holy day, 04:55 but I'm not overly moved by someone else's. 04:57 Religious liberty has to be for all... 04:59 Oh, absolutely. 05:00 Or it doesn't work for anyone essentially. 05:02 Yeah, I've been working in Washington, 05:03 I think that's one of the great things 05:05 that you've seen is that, 05:06 you've seen a lot of diverse groups come together 05:07 and work together 05:09 on these different policy issues. 05:10 So there are a lot of networks even with secular humanists 05:13 that are working with religious communities 05:16 on different issues that they can come together on. 05:19 So the Workplace 05:20 Religious Freedom Act is one of those, 05:23 and there are a number of other issues, 05:24 I think healthcare was another one 05:25 where a number of communities were very concerned 05:27 about the implications for conscience. 05:29 And conscience has such 05:31 a long history tradition in America 05:33 that it's affected 05:35 so many different groups in different ways 05:36 that it's everything from conscience objection 05:38 to warfare to, 05:40 you know, the pledge of allegiance to just, 05:42 you know, the healthcare. 05:44 So runs the gamut of groups across the board 05:47 that want to be able to say 05:50 that it's my right to do, that's what you see. 05:52 And yet it's very distinct. 05:54 Conscience issues historically and even legally, 05:57 it doesn't have to be religion, 05:59 and yet you and I know that the conscience 06:02 is almost a spiritual concept, isn't it? 06:05 There's a divine spark that you're responding to the, 06:09 certainly, religious values inform you good conscience. 06:13 Well, yeah, and when we're applying 06:15 within the context of US law, 06:16 we're looking at the deeply held religious convictions 06:20 that somebody has, 06:21 not just a certain idea about right and wrong, 06:24 but it has to be, 06:25 it's connected and I think this is what means... 06:26 Doesn't even have 06:28 to be perceived legally as right or wrong 06:29 if they hold it deeply, it's to be respected. 06:32 And this is what makes religious freedom 06:33 so different than other political rights 06:35 like free speech or being part of a labor union 06:39 or political party is that, with religious freedom 06:42 you're aligning an individual's conscience 06:44 with some external reality. 06:46 And it's not just a political party, 06:47 it's something outside of this time and space 06:49 that we live and exist 06:51 and that orients the individual to an eternal future. 06:55 And so that's a very different concept 06:58 than just something that's here and now, 06:59 and it orients in shapes how we live our lives 07:03 because of what might happen in the afterlife. 07:05 Let me really throw a wild card at you, 07:07 just get your reaction. 07:09 A few years ago I heard Congress... 07:12 not Congress, Cardinal Dolan of the Roman Catholic Church 07:17 make a nod toward the past history of his church, 07:21 he said, "Catholics once held that error has no rights." 07:25 They don't hold that now, error has no rights, 07:28 and in the secular history, 07:30 you know, thought back to the German Nazi experiment. 07:35 In Germany, Communists had no rights. 07:37 Well, even I can easily see 07:39 the problem of that political viewpoint, 07:41 but to say that, 07:42 anyone that believes that view no matter 07:44 how sincerely or sincerely wrong, 07:47 as a human being they lose all their rights, 07:49 that's sort of dangerous. 07:50 Oh, absolutely, yeah. 07:52 And I think we flirted with the idea 07:53 and I'm really going to go out and allude here. 07:54 President Trump, 07:56 I think got caught in his words 07:58 on the thing in Charlottesville. 08:01 But he was close to a truth, 08:03 not that there's necessarily good or bad people, 08:06 but even when people are holding a bad cause, 08:09 you can't just wipe them off the scale of the human rights 08:14 and respecting them even in their wrongness. 08:17 And we're close to it, with the terrorists, 08:19 we've crossed the line I believe. 08:21 If someone is identified as a terrorist, 08:23 human rights don't apply, you can pull their thumbnails, 08:25 or their fingernails out, you could skin them alone, 08:27 you could... 08:28 They're worthy of death. 08:30 And I think they're all connected, 08:31 I think what's at stake 08:33 is a broad based view of respect 08:39 for human life just because it's human life. 08:41 And what goes with it, views that they held sincerely, 08:45 not that you have to follow them 08:47 or hold them up as something ideal, 08:49 but that person 08:51 has the same innate rights as your own. 08:53 That's why at Hardwired 08:54 we believe that every person is hardwired for freedom... 08:56 Yes, I like that concept. 08:58 For dignity, we believe that every human being 09:00 is made for freedom and dignity, 09:01 and that's the goal 09:03 that we're trying to accomplish in the world by... 09:04 That's very biblical 09:05 from the Christian perspective... 09:07 Of course, but it's universal and human rights are universal, 09:11 there are universal ideals and standards 09:14 that we should seek for every human being 09:16 because of the inherent human dignity 09:18 that they possess. 09:19 So this is something that we're striving towards. 09:22 And what we see in America today, 09:24 particularly amongst younger generations 09:26 is that there's a lack of awareness 09:28 of these human rights 09:30 and how they apply to a lot of the things happening 09:32 in their lives today so. 09:33 I mean just, you mentioned President Trump 09:35 in the issue of Charlottesville over race, 09:37 but if you look at a lot of the issues 09:42 that we've seen in the past year 09:43 from the anti-Semitism that was in Charlottesville 09:47 to the immigration through, 09:49 you know, the challenges to immigration. 09:51 And the fears that a lot of Muslim immigrants 09:54 had of the policies and how it portrayed them. 09:58 You have a lot of concerns 10:00 across the aisle in diverse communities 10:04 over what's happening in society 10:06 and how it's affecting their religious identity 10:10 or their religious freedom. 10:11 And so I think for the first time 10:13 we have a conversation in America... 10:15 And that could be good. 10:16 They can be had about how does religious freedom 10:19 as freedom of conscience, how does it apply to everybody, 10:22 and how does society navigate it in a way 10:24 where everybody is able to achieve greater dignity 10:29 and respect and not less. 10:31 Yeah, well put, yeah. 10:32 Now that's a big challenge and humans 10:37 throughout history haven't navigated 10:39 that very well. 10:41 Well, it seemed easier to different cultures 10:42 when their political and ethnic identity was tied up 10:47 with their common religious identity, 10:49 but now we're so bifurcated on many levels, 10:52 we are such a diverse group 10:54 that we have to figure it out, don't we? 10:56 Right, when I think it's important 10:58 when one challenge we've seen is that people don't understand 11:01 the fears that people have 11:03 from a different political perspective 11:05 about losing their religious freedom. 11:09 So, you know, conservatives within the healthcare climate 11:13 were very fearful that they would be forced 11:15 to violate their conscience 11:18 by paying for abortifacient drugs. 11:21 And, you know, if it was Jehovah's Witness 11:23 that had to allow their child 11:26 to be given a blood transfusion, 11:28 or if it was Adventist 11:29 that had to work on the Sabbath, 11:31 I mean, those are all, 11:32 those are all violations of conscience. 11:35 At this in the same way a lot of conservatives 11:38 don't understand 11:40 how certain young people are protesting 11:43 about the fear, the changes in immigration, 11:46 how it feels that certain communities, 11:49 religious communities are being targeted and so. 11:52 And then at the same time on top of all of that, 11:54 you know, there are legitimate reasons 11:58 that we need to prioritize certain persecuted religious 12:02 communities in our refugee policy, 12:04 because that's a long standing in American tradition. 12:06 But it seems to be something 12:07 that hasn't really been discussed 12:09 in the whole immigration debate either. 12:10 There is a lot of issues going on in both sides 12:12 and I think the important thing is that, 12:14 there needs to be a real conversation in America 12:17 about why religious freedom 12:18 is something that is for everyone, 12:20 not just for one group or the other. 12:21 And I don't think... 12:23 Back to something I said earlier, 12:24 I don't think that conversation is being directed very well 12:28 because in its present administration 12:32 admirably have... 12:34 The president personally has said very clearly 12:38 that he's going to support religious freedom, that's fine. 12:42 But when I see 12:43 what's happened more recently in the United States, 12:46 a lot of it is religious entitlement, 12:48 it's more power to a certain religious viewpoint. 12:51 I don't see an increased emphasis 12:53 generally on in inclusion. 12:56 You know, in the Seventh-day Adventist church 12:59 there's a great suspicion of ecumenism 13:01 which is sort of word we use don't use it anymore, 13:04 they take it a syncretism 13:06 where you sort of put all religions 13:07 in the pot and just stir them. 13:09 I don't think anyone that deeply cares about 13:10 a particular religious faith wants that, 13:13 what they hold they hold dearly and closely, 13:15 and it's very important. 13:18 So it should... 13:20 To me it's a little troubling 13:21 when I see a particular religious viewpoint, 13:24 particularly one that's more easily identified 13:26 with historical nature of the society in the country. 13:30 It's getting more and more empowered 13:32 but maybe the others are losing out. 13:34 So... 13:35 Well, I don't know, 13:37 I mean, ultimately in America as in much of the West, 13:39 more and more people are becoming non-religious. 13:42 Now, that's another threat, yes. 13:44 But, I mean, so I don't know 13:45 that focusing on religion so much 13:48 is as much to see is as important 13:50 as understanding that there are a lot of people 13:52 that reject religion, that are becoming secular 13:54 and there's a clash between the two. 13:56 And within those two contacts, 13:58 we need to understand that both groups require 14:02 and should have the freedom 14:05 to decide whether to follow a belief or not follow it. 14:08 And then within that you can't force people 14:10 to do things 14:13 that would violate their own conscience. 14:15 And you run to the key thing, like, it's not to be forced. 14:17 If there's force involved, it's not religious liberty. 14:19 We will be back after a short break, stay with us. |
Revised 2018-03-29