Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
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that brings you
news, updates, analysis,
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and general information
on religious liberty events
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in the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine.
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And my guest on this
program is Tina Ramirez,
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founder and
president of Hardwired.
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And not the first time
you've been on this program.
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I'm sure we have regular viewers
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that already heard you
explain your organization
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which is doing
leading edge education
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all around the world,
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but what
impresses me particularly
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is in Iraq dealing with
people who have been damaged
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by that whole
civil war situation,
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ISIS and so on.
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But you also have
a background working
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at quite high levels
in the US government.
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How about you?
What are your positions?
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I don't want to
characterize them.
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No, no, it's okay.
Thank you for having me here.
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I know you worked in
congressional offices
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in different
advisory capacities.
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So let's talk a
little bit about the US.
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In my view the US,
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like every country is
facing severe challenges
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on all levels at the
moment, and with the political,
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maybe not instability
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but political
dynamism of the moment.
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I think we're even
having to sort of look again,
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you know, what
religious liberties,
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civil liberties, how
do they fit into this.
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You know, what's
the situation today,
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it clearly is not
business as usual, is it?
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No, and thank you for
having me again, Lincoln.
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It's great to be
with you. My pleasure.
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Yeah, so Hardwired organization
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that I founded
provides education
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and training in
religious freedom
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around the world,
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and establishes
leadership in countries
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where there is none,
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so that we can begin to turn
the tide against persecution.
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But obviously
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this is still a
hot issue in America
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and in many western countries,
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where the freedom is
beginning to come under attack
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or just is being
threatened in different ways.
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And, so it's been interesting
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because at the
organization we've been looking
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at how do you raise
up younger generations
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to care about this human
right in order to preserve it
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for not only
people around the world,
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but for future
generations here as well.
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But now, preserve it for
today. Yeah, right here, great.
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Right here, it's great.
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So this is something
that we've been looking at
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and in working
in the US Congress,
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we focused primarily
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on international
religious freedom issues
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but also on some
domestic issues as well.
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So it's a very
different landscape here
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in the United States
than it is in other countries,
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it's not life
and death realities,
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but it's still,
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there are many issues in America
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where the freedom of conscience
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is definitely coming
under threat in diverse ways,
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and on both sides of the aisle.
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So it's a very interesting time.
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Well, it's not,
maybe not life or death,
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you know, that your head's
gonna be severed at the moment,
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but people's
livelihood is often on the line
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and you can't survive
long without reasonable income
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and the place in
society, so it's very important.
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Right, and I think that
one of the greatest challenges
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is that the general public
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just isn't aware
of the implications
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of limiting the freedom
of conscience and belief
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for people of faith,
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you know, people
across the country.
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And so, when you
come from a community,
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religious community
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that this is
embedded in who you are,
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you know, taking the Sabbath day
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and keeping it holy, not
working another community.
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I mean there are a lot
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of different
religious communities
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like Jehovah's Witnesses
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that, you know, the
blood transfusion issue,
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or if you look are not pledging
the allegiance, certain things,
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I mean, there are
a lot of communities
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that have certain
conscientious objections
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or two different
issues as a matter of faith.
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And for them
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it would be their
ability to live out their faith
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is being threatened right now
by a society that wants to say,
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no, you should have
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to just fall in
line with the culture.
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Sort of the uniformity. Right.
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And what you're getting at,
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I don't know if
you've ever expressed
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or thought of it this way,
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but to me this
true religious liberty
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that you understand
very well and we talk about.
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But a lot of what passes
through religious liberty now
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is religious entitlement,
like my group wants this,
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I'm restricted,
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couldn't even be
Seventh-day Adventist,
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I mean, we're not necessarily
doing that, but it could be,
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I'm fighting for
accommodation on my holy day,
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but I'm not overly
moved by someone else's.
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Religious liberty
has to be for all...
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Oh, absolutely.
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Or it doesn't work
for anyone essentially.
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Yeah, I've been
working in Washington,
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I think that's one
of the great things
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that you've seen is that,
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you've seen a lot of
diverse groups come together
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and work together
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on these
different policy issues.
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So there are a lot of networks
even with secular humanists
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that are working
with religious communities
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on different issues that
they can come together on.
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So the Workplace
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Religious Freedom
Act is one of those,
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and there are a
number of other issues,
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I think
healthcare was another one
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where a number of
communities were very concerned
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about the
implications for conscience.
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And conscience has such
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a long history
tradition in America
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that it's affected
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so many different
groups in different ways
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that it's everything
from conscience objection
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to warfare to,
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you know, the pledge
of allegiance to just,
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you know, the healthcare.
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So runs the gamut of
groups across the board
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that want to be able to say
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that it's my right to
do, that's what you see.
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And yet it's very distinct.
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Conscience issues
historically and even legally,
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it doesn't have to be religion,
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and yet you and I
know that the conscience
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is almost a
spiritual concept, isn't it?
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There's a divine spark
that you're responding to the,
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certainly, religious values
inform you good conscience.
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Well, yeah, and
when we're applying
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within the context of US law,
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we're looking at the deeply
held religious convictions
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that somebody has,
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not just a certain
idea about right and wrong,
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but it has to be,
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it's connected and I
think this is what means...
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Doesn't even have
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to be perceived
legally as right or wrong
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if they hold it
deeply, it's to be respected.
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And this is what
makes religious freedom
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so different than
other political rights
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like free speech or
being part of a labor union
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or political party is
that, with religious freedom
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you're aligning an
individual's conscience
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with some external reality.
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And it's not just
a political party,
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it's something
outside of this time and space
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that we live and exist
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and that orients the
individual to an eternal future.
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And so that's a
very different concept
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than just something
that's here and now,
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and it orients in
shapes how we live our lives
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because of what might
happen in the afterlife.
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Let me really
throw a wild card at you,
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just get your reaction.
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A few years ago
I heard Congress...
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not Congress, Cardinal Dolan
of the Roman Catholic Church
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make a nod toward the
past history of his church,
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he said, "Catholics once
held that error has no rights."
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They don't hold that
now, error has no rights,
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and in the secular history,
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you know, thought back to
the German Nazi experiment.
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In Germany,
Communists had no rights.
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Well, even I can easily see
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the problem of that
political viewpoint,
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but to say that,
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anyone that
believes that view no matter
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how sincerely
or sincerely wrong,
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as a human being they
lose all their rights,
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that's sort of dangerous.
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Oh, absolutely, yeah.
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And I think we
flirted with the idea
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and I'm really going
to go out and allude here.
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President Trump,
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I think got caught in his words
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on the thing in Charlottesville.
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But he was close to a truth,
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not that there's
necessarily good or bad people,
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but even when people
are holding a bad cause,
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you can't just wipe them off
the scale of the human rights
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and respecting them
even in their wrongness.
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And we're close to
it, with the terrorists,
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we've crossed
the line I believe.
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If someone is
identified as a terrorist,
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human rights don't apply,
you can pull their thumbnails,
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or their fingernails out,
you could skin them alone,
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you could...
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They're worthy of death.
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And I think
they're all connected,
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I think what's at stake
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is a broad based view of respect
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for human life just
because it's human life.
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And what goes with it,
views that they held sincerely,
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not that you have to follow them
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or hold them up
as something ideal,
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but that person
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has the same
innate rights as your own.
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That's why at Hardwired
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we believe that every person
is hardwired for freedom...
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Yes, I like that concept.
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For dignity, we
believe that every human being
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is made for freedom and dignity,
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and that's the goal
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that we're trying to
accomplish in the world by...
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That's very biblical
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from the
Christian perspective...
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Of course, but it's universal
and human rights are universal,
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there are universal
ideals and standards
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that we should seek
for every human being
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because of the
inherent human dignity
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that they possess.
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So this is something
that we're striving towards.
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And what we see
in America today,
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particularly
amongst younger generations
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is that there's
a lack of awareness
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of these human rights
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and how they apply to a
lot of the things happening
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in their lives today so.
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I mean just, you
mentioned President Trump
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in the issue of
Charlottesville over race,
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but if you look at
a lot of the issues
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that we've seen in the past year
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from the anti-Semitism
that was in Charlottesville
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to the immigration through,
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you know, the
challenges to immigration.
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And the fears that a
lot of Muslim immigrants
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had of the policies
and how it portrayed them.
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You have a lot of concerns
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across the aisle
in diverse communities
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over what's happening in society
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and how it's affecting
their religious identity
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or their religious freedom.
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And so I think
for the first time
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we have a
conversation in America...
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And that could be good.
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They can be had about
how does religious freedom
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as freedom of conscience,
how does it apply to everybody,
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and how does
society navigate it in a way
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where everybody is able
to achieve greater dignity
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and respect and not less.
00:10:29.56\00:10:31.06
Yeah, well put, yeah.
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Now that's a big
challenge and humans
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throughout
history haven't navigated
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that very well.
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Well, it seemed
easier to different cultures
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when their political and
ethnic identity was tied up
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with their common
religious identity,
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but now we're so
bifurcated on many levels,
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we are such a diverse group
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that we have to
figure it out, don't we?
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Right, when I
think it's important
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when one challenge we've seen
is that people don't understand
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the fears that people have
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from a different
political perspective
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about losing
their religious freedom.
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So, you know, conservatives
within the healthcare climate
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were very fearful
that they would be forced
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to violate their conscience
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by paying for
abortifacient drugs.
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And, you know, if it
was Jehovah's Witness
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that had to allow their child
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to be given a blood transfusion,
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or if it was Adventist
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that had to work on the Sabbath,
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I mean, those are all,
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those are all
violations of conscience.
00:11:32.79\00:11:35.22
At this in the same
way a lot of conservatives
00:11:35.26\00:11:38.79
don't understand
00:11:38.83\00:11:40.16
how certain young
people are protesting
00:11:40.20\00:11:43.77
about the fear, the
changes in immigration,
00:11:43.80\00:11:46.67
how it feels that
certain communities,
00:11:46.70\00:11:49.50
religious communities
are being targeted and so.
00:11:49.54\00:11:52.17
And then at the same
time on top of all of that,
00:11:52.21\00:11:54.51
you know, there
are legitimate reasons
00:11:54.54\00:11:58.81
that we need to prioritize
certain persecuted religious
00:11:58.85\00:12:02.42
communities in
our refugee policy,
00:12:02.45\00:12:04.29
because that's a long
standing in American tradition.
00:12:04.32\00:12:06.52
But it seems to be something
00:12:06.55\00:12:07.89
that hasn't
really been discussed
00:12:07.92\00:12:09.26
in the whole
immigration debate either.
00:12:09.29\00:12:10.69
There is a lot of
issues going on in both sides
00:12:10.73\00:12:12.86
and I think the
important thing is that,
00:12:12.89\00:12:14.93
there needs to be a
real conversation in America
00:12:14.96\00:12:17.13
about why religious freedom
00:12:17.17\00:12:18.63
is something
that is for everyone,
00:12:18.67\00:12:20.00
not just for one
group or the other.
00:12:20.04\00:12:21.70
And I don't think...
00:12:21.74\00:12:23.07
Back to
something I said earlier,
00:12:23.10\00:12:24.47
I don't think that conversation
is being directed very well
00:12:24.51\00:12:28.34
because in its
present administration
00:12:28.38\00:12:32.51
admirably have...
00:12:32.55\00:12:34.12
The president
personally has said very clearly
00:12:34.15\00:12:38.09
that he's going to support
religious freedom, that's fine.
00:12:38.12\00:12:42.46
But when I see
00:12:42.49\00:12:43.83
what's happened more
recently in the United States,
00:12:43.86\00:12:46.29
a lot of it is
religious entitlement,
00:12:46.33\00:12:48.36
it's more power to a
certain religious viewpoint.
00:12:48.40\00:12:51.37
I don't see an
increased emphasis
00:12:51.40\00:12:53.10
generally on in inclusion.
00:12:53.13\00:12:56.81
You know, in the
Seventh-day Adventist church
00:12:56.84\00:12:59.07
there's a great
suspicion of ecumenism
00:12:59.11\00:13:01.38
which is sort of word we
use don't use it anymore,
00:13:01.41\00:13:04.91
they take it a syncretism
00:13:04.95\00:13:06.28
where you sort
of put all religions
00:13:06.31\00:13:07.65
in the pot and just stir them.
00:13:07.68\00:13:09.02
I don't think anyone
that deeply cares about
00:13:09.05\00:13:10.85
a particular
religious faith wants that,
00:13:10.89\00:13:13.79
what they hold they
hold dearly and closely,
00:13:13.82\00:13:15.92
and it's very important.
00:13:15.96\00:13:18.76
So it should...
00:13:18.79\00:13:20.13
To me it's a little troubling
00:13:20.16\00:13:21.50
when I see a
particular religious viewpoint,
00:13:21.53\00:13:24.13
particularly one
that's more easily identified
00:13:24.17\00:13:26.37
with historical nature of
the society in the country.
00:13:26.40\00:13:30.14
It's getting more
and more empowered
00:13:30.17\00:13:32.67
but maybe the
others are losing out.
00:13:32.71\00:13:34.41
So...
00:13:34.44\00:13:35.78
Well, I don't know,
00:13:35.81\00:13:37.15
I mean, ultimately in
America as in much of the West,
00:13:37.18\00:13:39.65
more and more people
are becoming non-religious.
00:13:39.68\00:13:42.78
Now, that's another threat, yes.
00:13:42.82\00:13:44.39
But, I mean, so I don't know
00:13:44.42\00:13:45.75
that focusing
on religion so much
00:13:45.79\00:13:48.86
is as much to
see is as important
00:13:48.89\00:13:50.56
as understanding that
there are a lot of people
00:13:50.59\00:13:51.99
that reject religion,
that are becoming secular
00:13:52.03\00:13:54.80
and there's a
clash between the two.
00:13:54.83\00:13:56.63
And within those two contacts,
00:13:56.67\00:13:58.33
we need to understand
that both groups require
00:13:58.37\00:14:02.24
and should have the freedom
00:14:02.27\00:14:04.97
to decide whether to follow
a belief or not follow it.
00:14:05.01\00:14:08.31
And then within that
you can't force people
00:14:08.34\00:14:10.78
to do things
00:14:10.81\00:14:13.75
that would violate
their own conscience.
00:14:13.78\00:14:15.12
And you run to the key thing,
like, it's not to be forced.
00:14:15.15\00:14:17.32
If there's force involved,
it's not religious liberty.
00:14:17.35\00:14:19.35
We will be back after a
short break, stay with us.
00:14:19.39\00:14:21.62