Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000389B
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00:05 Welcome to the Liberty Insider again.
00:07 Thank you for coming back. 00:09 Before the break with guest Tina Ramirez, 00:12 we started off on talking about Nigeria, 00:14 Boko Haram, and of course religious intolerance, 00:19 and even religious terrorism, 00:21 but it's more than just religion, isn't it? 00:23 There are many cultural and economic reasons 00:27 for the instability that's developing there. 00:29 And you've been pointing out always, 00:31 I know your organization, education, education. 00:34 Yeah. 00:36 And at the root of what we see in Nigeria 00:37 is really these fears, these underlying fears 00:40 and misconceptions of the others 00:41 that are just fueled by religious, 00:46 by people that want to use religion 00:48 to their own ends but there are fears. 00:50 And so when they fall along religious lines 00:52 and then they are reinforced, 00:53 and then the people that make up the communities 00:57 that are of most affected, 00:58 it happens to happen along religious lines 01:01 so it is unfortunate. 01:02 But to stop that cycle of violence, 01:04 you have to educate the people 01:05 and so that's what Hardwired does. 01:07 So we, just a few months ago 01:09 I was in Iraq, in Nigeria, sorry, 01:12 and we were working with a group of 20 leaders. 01:15 We've chosen one leader 01:16 from each of the 20 northern states 01:18 to start training and our goal is to establish teams 01:22 in each of the northern states of leaders 01:24 that can defend religious freedom. 01:25 Basically little cell groups there. 01:27 Cells. Good. 01:28 But diverse groups so they would include Muslims, 01:30 and Christians, and indigenous leaders, 01:31 and so lawyers, as well as religious leaders 01:34 so a diverse group. 01:36 And our goal is that we would teach these teams, 01:39 why religious freedom is in their interest? 01:40 How to defend it? 01:42 And just in the last few months and in the last year 01:45 that we've been doing it, 01:46 it's been really interesting just to learn 01:47 the lack of awareness of their own laws. 01:51 Lack of awareness of how to navigate the laws, 01:55 how to access justice. 01:58 You would think people that are naturally interested 02:00 in this issues would know, 02:02 but there is simply no information about it. 02:04 And so these are the first trainings 02:05 that we've seen in Nigeria 02:07 to provide that kind of information 02:08 and resource so that the people don't have to just lay down 02:13 and take whatever persecution comes. 02:15 You know, when you told me something that I didn't even 02:18 get it out of reading the news stories 02:19 that the Sharia law that's applied in some areas 02:23 is not mandatory for non-Muslims. 02:25 Right. 02:26 And so we have one lawyer that's working 02:28 in one of the northern states who is great, 02:30 and he went through the training 02:32 and then we do cycles of trainings, 02:34 so they go through it a few times to really be able 02:37 to sustain their own ability 02:39 to train others in religious freedom. 02:41 So during the second training he came back 02:43 and he had gone and tested the curriculum 02:46 and applied it by training others. 02:48 So we go, we have them tested 02:50 in order to see how they can do, 02:51 and then they come back, we try it again. 02:53 And he had done the training 02:54 with several different groups of other lawyers, 02:56 one of which included a group of Muslim lawyers 02:59 in his government job. 03:00 And when he came back, 03:04 he shared how one of the Muslim lawyers 03:06 actually invited him to his village 03:08 to share with the imam, 03:10 the religious leader in his village. 03:13 And it was like the tribal leader 03:16 that was Muslim. 03:17 And the tribal leader was so amazed 03:19 as this lawyer was sharing about 03:21 what religious freedom means, 03:22 and the economic benefits of religious freedom 03:25 for their community, and sharing it in a way 03:27 that would really resonate with this leader. 03:29 And leader said, 03:30 "I've never heard this information, 03:32 where did you learn it? Where can I learn more?" 03:34 So he said, "I will come back and we can share more." 03:37 And then the leader said, 03:39 "Well, there is anything we can do to help you?" 03:41 And the lawyer said, "Well, there is this church 03:43 that has property in your village, 03:45 but the local police will not let us build on it, 03:47 and they've been harassing us not allowing us to build." 03:50 So he gave permission... 03:51 So he got on the phone. 03:52 He figured out who it was, got on the phone, and said, 03:56 "I want that to change right now." 03:57 And it did, they were able to build. 03:59 So instead of having to go through 04:00 this huge legal process with the courts, 04:02 it was one relationship that was made, 04:05 and it changed the situation in a village 04:08 from one of conflict and intolerance 04:11 that fuels violence and allows for Boko Haram 04:13 to feed off of it and to gain access 04:15 to the power there, to one of relationship 04:18 and breaking down barriers and trust and pluralism. 04:21 Now I can see that you have 04:23 the potential to just sort of positive leavening 04:28 if you like of the whole community 04:29 with these ideas. 04:31 And that's what we have seen across the board 04:32 so our goal is that heed to these northern states 04:34 we would begin to develop teams that can go 04:36 and disseminate training on religious freedom 04:39 and help their communities understand 04:41 how to interact with one another. 04:42 And you have big plans, but I am presuming 04:44 that there are other groups operating, 04:46 they're doing not quite the same but... 04:49 or what I'm getting it. 04:51 You're not just a line, 04:52 I'm hoping that many religious liberty 04:56 and civil rights groups 04:58 are counteracting what's happening 04:59 or is it just you? 05:01 No, there really isn't a lot happening 05:02 in Nigeria unfortunately. 05:04 I mean, and I've been following Nigeria for some time, 05:06 I mentioned we had hearings on it in Congress, 05:08 we followed it. 05:10 You know, when there is a big situation 05:11 like the Underwear Bomber 05:13 or the Chibok girls being attacked, 05:15 all the attention is on Nigeria but then within months 05:18 it dissipate since so, then people turn 05:20 to another crisis like Iraq, or North Korea, 05:22 or Iran, there is, you know, you take your pick, 05:24 there is plenty of crisis in the world. 05:26 And so, unfortunately, 05:27 Nigeria has been overlooked many times, 05:28 overshadowed by other global crisis. 05:32 The humanitarian crisis we've had in last few years 05:34 with the refugees. 05:36 And unfortunately, that means that by ignoring 05:39 the problem it's just that climate of impurity continues 05:41 to get worse, and so the situation 05:43 has escalated there. 05:45 But it is an extremely critical country 05:48 in the region and in the world to pay attention to. 05:52 It's going to have one of the largest populations 05:55 in the world in the next 10 to 20 years. 05:58 Most of that population growth is occurring in the north 06:00 in the predominantly Muslim areas. 06:02 Isn't the capital 06:03 one of the biggest cities in the world? 06:04 Yeah. 06:06 And so you can imagine the tensions that this is going 06:07 to create in the future if we don't address 06:09 these underlying conflicts right now. 06:11 It's only going to get worse. 06:12 And that could be the next global crisis 06:15 like what we have seen with ISIS 06:16 if we don't address it now. 06:18 So Hardwired recognizes these patterns 06:20 and these tensions and we want to work in countries 06:22 where we see that 06:23 they're at a critical turning point 06:25 that we can create change 06:27 that can be sustainable for the future 06:28 to a very larger crisis. 06:31 Well, of course, with Africa... 06:34 I don't know if you have the answer. 06:35 It seems to me the world ignores Africa 06:38 because it's not perceived 06:39 as central to its political stability, 06:42 but if you ignore it too long, 06:45 it will blow up in our face. 06:46 And where was that the embassy bombing 06:49 with the US? 06:50 In Lagos, I think. Yeah, Lagos. 06:52 I mean, that sort of got American attention 06:54 and I think other than that... 06:57 And you know, why... 06:59 I can answer the question myself, 07:00 but why is Nigeria not so important 07:03 to US interest say as Bahrain. 07:06 Well, it should be, I mean... 07:08 I think I know the answer but... 07:09 Yeah. These are... 07:11 You would think from a people point of view 07:13 and the influence on another countries, 07:15 Nigeria would be more worthy of a touch. 07:17 Well, in some ways Nigeria is a really interesting example 07:20 of pluralism in the world 07:21 because you've got such a diverse 07:24 and vibrant religious society with the Christians 07:27 and the Muslims there, 07:29 that could really be an example of pluralism 07:32 and freedom in the world 07:33 if it was really taking seriously, 07:37 and if it was attended the right way, 07:41 but right now we just don't see that happening, 07:42 and unfortunately it's ignored. 07:44 I'll run something valuable. 07:46 I have no idea how you learn so much. 07:48 I heard a scholar the other day, 07:51 at some length say that his theory 07:54 of why many of the world's problems 07:56 are getting worse and worse, 07:58 is that we don't let conflict work its way out. 08:01 That usually the combatants 08:03 whether they are religious or political, 08:05 they fight till someone's exhausted 08:08 and the whole point is won 08:09 and then they go on and rebuild. 08:11 When the issue blows up, things are full tilt 08:14 then the UN or some groups dips in 08:16 and we freeze it in place. 08:18 And the antagonisms and everything remain 08:21 or even get worse, 08:23 they're just now not allowed to work out. 08:25 I don't quite buy that view. 08:27 I mean, it might be experientially true 08:31 for the world as a whole, 08:32 but can the alternative of educations 08:36 bypass what he was arguing, 08:39 the need to just let the violence play out 08:41 until it's resolved by scorched earth policy if you like. 08:45 Right. 08:46 No, I don't think that works in the world 08:47 that we live in today with terrorism and... 08:49 And nuclear and all the rest of 08:51 'cause the stakes are too high. 08:52 People that are able to put extreme fear 08:54 in populous in order that, you know, 08:56 you are not duking it out on equal playing grounds, 08:59 that's not what's happening here. 09:00 So you have situations where communities 09:03 are terrified by violence and terror groups that are, 09:07 you know, just putting fear in the population 09:09 and then forcing them to submit to really dictatorial regimes 09:15 and ultimately lack of religious freedom. 09:18 But what we've seen in places like Iraq 09:20 is that when you ignore the religious root 09:22 causes of those conflicts, 09:24 you end up with situations that only recur, 09:27 they just recycle through every, you know, decade. 09:30 And in Nigeria we've seen that as well. 09:32 And so, in order to really get to those root causes, 09:34 you've got to begin to educate the populous in a way 09:37 that changes the mindset of the culture, 09:39 that changes the culture itself. 09:41 And to shift that, 09:42 to shift the culture of a population, 09:45 you really have to work through education in a way 09:49 that will teach them to value the rights 09:52 and fears of one and another, overcome their fears 09:54 and be willing to live side by side 09:58 where they actively engage with one another. 10:00 And if they're separate 10:03 and they are forced to be separate, 10:05 you know, as you said, that doesn't workout either, 10:08 you really have to... 10:10 It's not allowing them to fight it out together, 10:12 but it's enabling them to almost duke it out 10:16 in dialog together or in active engagement 10:20 where they are forced to work through their fears 10:21 and misconceptions of one another 10:23 or the intolerance and the things 10:26 that are fuelling the ideologies 10:28 that are allowing for the violence 10:30 to occur in the first place. 10:34 There is no question that Boko Haram out of Nigeria 10:38 has been one of the most fearsome forms 10:40 of religious terrorism. 10:43 Ironically, it profits from a sense of anti-education. 10:49 Literally, it means educational knowledge forbidden, 10:53 westernization forbidden, 10:55 but yet when we are dealing about 10:57 religious liberty knowledge is vital, 11:00 an understanding of how God works, 11:03 what He wants for men, the rights of other people. 11:06 This we have to learn even though 11:08 there is a certain innate yearning toward it. 11:11 Religious freedom is not forbidden 11:14 and it should never be forbidden. 11:17 And Boko Haram, ISIS, whatever it might be 11:20 that fights against this, it's putting itself against 11:23 an elemental principle of the universe. 11:28 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2018-03-22