Welcome to the
Liberty Insider again.
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Thank you for coming back.
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Before the break
with guest Tina Ramirez,
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we started off on
talking about Nigeria,
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Boko Haram, and of
course religious intolerance,
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and even religious terrorism,
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but it's more than
just religion, isn't it?
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There are many
cultural and economic reasons
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for the instability
that's developing there.
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And you've been
pointing out always,
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I know your organization,
education, education.
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Yeah.
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And at the root of
what we see in Nigeria
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is really these
fears, these underlying fears
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and misconceptions of the others
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that are just
fueled by religious,
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by people that
want to use religion
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to their own ends
but there are fears.
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And so when they
fall along religious lines
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and then they are reinforced,
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and then the people
that make up the communities
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that are of most affected,
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it happens to happen
along religious lines
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so it is unfortunate.
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But to stop that
cycle of violence,
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you have to educate the people
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and so that's
what Hardwired does.
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So we, just a few months ago
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I was in Iraq,
in Nigeria, sorry,
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and we were working
with a group of 20 leaders.
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We've chosen one leader
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from each of the
20 northern states
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to start training and our
goal is to establish teams
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in each of the
northern states of leaders
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that can defend
religious freedom.
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Basically little
cell groups there.
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Cells. Good.
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But diverse groups so
they would include Muslims,
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and Christians,
and indigenous leaders,
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and so lawyers, as
well as religious leaders
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so a diverse group.
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And our goal is that we
would teach these teams,
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why religious
freedom is in their interest?
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How to defend it?
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And just in the last few
months and in the last year
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that we've been doing it,
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it's been really
interesting just to learn
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the lack of
awareness of their own laws.
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Lack of awareness of
how to navigate the laws,
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how to access justice.
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You would think people
that are naturally interested
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in this issues would know,
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but there is simply
no information about it.
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And so these are
the first trainings
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that we've seen in Nigeria
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to provide that
kind of information
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and resource so that the people
don't have to just lay down
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and take whatever
persecution comes.
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You know, when you told me
something that I didn't even
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get it out of
reading the news stories
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that the Sharia law
that's applied in some areas
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is not
mandatory for non-Muslims.
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Right.
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And so we have one
lawyer that's working
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in one of the
northern states who is great,
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and he went through the training
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and then we do
cycles of trainings,
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so they go through it a
few times to really be able
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to sustain their own ability
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to train others
in religious freedom.
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So during the second
training he came back
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and he had gone and
tested the curriculum
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and applied it
by training others.
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So we go, we have them tested
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in order to see how they can do,
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and then they come
back, we try it again.
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And he had done the training
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with several different
groups of other lawyers,
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one of which included
a group of Muslim lawyers
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in his government job.
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And when he came back,
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he shared how one
of the Muslim lawyers
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actually invited
him to his village
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to share with the imam,
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the religious
leader in his village.
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And it was like
the tribal leader
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that was Muslim.
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And the tribal
leader was so amazed
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as this lawyer was sharing about
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what religious freedom means,
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and the economic
benefits of religious freedom
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for their community,
and sharing it in a way
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that would really
resonate with this leader.
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And leader said,
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"I've never
heard this information,
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where did you learn it?
Where can I learn more?"
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So he said, "I will come
back and we can share more."
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And then the leader said,
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"Well, there is
anything we can do to help you?"
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And the lawyer said,
"Well, there is this church
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that has
property in your village,
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but the local police
will not let us build on it,
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and they've been harassing
us not allowing us to build."
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So he gave permission...
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So he got on the phone.
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He figured out who it was,
got on the phone, and said,
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"I want that to
change right now."
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And it did, they
were able to build.
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So instead of
having to go through
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this huge legal
process with the courts,
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it was one
relationship that was made,
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and it changed the
situation in a village
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from one of
conflict and intolerance
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that fuels violence
and allows for Boko Haram
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to feed off of it
and to gain access
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to the power there,
to one of relationship
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and breaking down barriers
and trust and pluralism.
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Now I can see that you have
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the potential to just
sort of positive leavening
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if you like of
the whole community
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with these ideas.
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And that's what we
have seen across the board
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so our goal is that
heed to these northern states
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we would begin to
develop teams that can go
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and disseminate
training on religious freedom
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and help their
communities understand
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how to interact
with one another.
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And you have big
plans, but I am presuming
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that there are
other groups operating,
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they're doing not
quite the same but...
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or what I'm getting it.
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You're not just a line,
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I'm hoping that
many religious liberty
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and civil rights groups
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are
counteracting what's happening
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or is it just you?
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No, there really
isn't a lot happening
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in Nigeria unfortunately.
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I mean, and I've been
following Nigeria for some time,
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I mentioned we had
hearings on it in Congress,
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we followed it.
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You know, when
there is a big situation
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like the Underwear Bomber
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or the Chibok
girls being attacked,
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all the attention is on
Nigeria but then within months
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it dissipate since
so, then people turn
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to another crisis
like Iraq, or North Korea,
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or Iran, there is, you
know, you take your pick,
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there is plenty of
crisis in the world.
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And so, unfortunately,
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Nigeria has been
overlooked many times,
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overshadowed by
other global crisis.
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The humanitarian crisis
we've had in last few years
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with the refugees.
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And unfortunately,
that means that by ignoring
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the problem it's just that
climate of impurity continues
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to get worse,
and so the situation
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has escalated there.
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But it is an
extremely critical country
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in the region and in the
world to pay attention to.
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It's going to have one
of the largest populations
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in the world in the
next 10 to 20 years.
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Most of that population
growth is occurring in the north
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in the
predominantly Muslim areas.
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Isn't the capital
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one of the biggest
cities in the world?
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Yeah.
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And so you can imagine the
tensions that this is going
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to create in the
future if we don't address
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these underlying
conflicts right now.
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It's only going to get worse.
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And that could be
the next global crisis
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like what we have seen with ISIS
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if we don't address it now.
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So Hardwired
recognizes these patterns
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and these tensions and
we want to work in countries
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where we see that
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they're at a
critical turning point
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that we can create change
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that can be
sustainable for the future
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to a very larger crisis.
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Well, of course, with Africa...
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I don't know if
you have the answer.
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It seems to me the
world ignores Africa
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because it's not perceived
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as central to its
political stability,
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but if you ignore it too long,
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it will blow up in our face.
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And where was that
the embassy bombing
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with the US?
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In Lagos, I think. Yeah, Lagos.
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I mean, that sort of
got American attention
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and I think other than that...
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And you know, why...
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I can answer
the question myself,
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but why is
Nigeria not so important
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to US interest say as Bahrain.
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Well, it should be, I mean...
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I think I know the answer but...
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Yeah. These are...
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You would think from
a people point of view
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and the influence
on another countries,
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Nigeria would be
more worthy of a touch.
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Well, in some ways Nigeria
is a really interesting example
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of pluralism in the world
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because you've
got such a diverse
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and vibrant religious
society with the Christians
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and the Muslims there,
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that could really be
an example of pluralism
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and freedom in the world
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if it was really
taking seriously,
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and if it was
attended the right way,
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but right now we just
don't see that happening,
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and unfortunately it's ignored.
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I'll run something valuable.
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I have no idea
how you learn so much.
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I heard a scholar the other day,
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at some length
say that his theory
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of why many of
the world's problems
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are getting worse and worse,
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is that we don't let
conflict work its way out.
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That usually the combatants
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whether they are
religious or political,
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they fight till
someone's exhausted
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and the whole point is won
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and then they go on and rebuild.
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When the issue blows
up, things are full tilt
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then the UN or
some groups dips in
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and we freeze it in place.
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And the antagonisms
and everything remain
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or even get worse,
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they're just now
not allowed to work out.
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I don't quite buy that view.
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I mean, it might
be experientially true
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for the world as a whole,
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but can the
alternative of educations
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bypass what he was arguing,
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the need to just let
the violence play out
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until it's resolved by scorched
earth policy if you like.
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Right.
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No, I don't think
that works in the world
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that we live in
today with terrorism and...
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And nuclear and all the rest of
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'cause the stakes are too high.
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People that are
able to put extreme fear
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in populous in
order that, you know,
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you are not duking it
out on equal playing grounds,
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that's not
what's happening here.
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So you have
situations where communities
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are terrified by violence
and terror groups that are,
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you know, just
putting fear in the population
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and then forcing them to submit
to really dictatorial regimes
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and ultimately lack
of religious freedom.
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But what we've
seen in places like Iraq
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is that when you
ignore the religious root
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causes of those conflicts,
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you end up with
situations that only recur,
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they just recycle
through every, you know, decade.
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And in Nigeria
we've seen that as well.
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And so, in order to
really get to those root causes,
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you've got to begin to
educate the populous in a way
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that changes the
mindset of the culture,
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that changes the culture itself.
00:09:39.51\00:09:41.31
And to shift that,
00:09:41.34\00:09:42.84
to shift the
culture of a population,
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you really have to work
through education in a way
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that will teach
them to value the rights
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and fears of one and
another, overcome their fears
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and be willing
to live side by side
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where they actively
engage with one another.
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And if they're separate
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and they are
forced to be separate,
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you know, as you said,
that doesn't workout either,
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you really have to...
00:10:08.17\00:10:10.11
It's not allowing them
to fight it out together,
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but it's enabling
them to almost duke it out
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in dialog together
or in active engagement
00:10:16.75\00:10:20.05
where they are forced
to work through their fears
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and
misconceptions of one another
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or the
intolerance and the things
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that are fuelling the ideologies
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that are
allowing for the violence
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to occur in the first place.
00:10:30.29\00:10:34.46
There is no question
that Boko Haram out of Nigeria
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has been one of
the most fearsome forms
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of religious terrorism.
00:10:40.44\00:10:43.10
Ironically, it profits
from a sense of anti-education.
00:10:43.14\00:10:49.41
Literally, it means
educational knowledge forbidden,
00:10:49.44\00:10:53.58
westernization forbidden,
00:10:53.62\00:10:55.52
but yet when we
are dealing about
00:10:55.55\00:10:57.22
religious liberty
knowledge is vital,
00:10:57.25\00:11:00.49
an understanding
of how God works,
00:11:00.52\00:11:03.06
what He wants for men,
the rights of other people.
00:11:03.09\00:11:06.36
This we have to
learn even though
00:11:06.39\00:11:08.40
there is a certain
innate yearning toward it.
00:11:08.43\00:11:11.47
Religious
freedom is not forbidden
00:11:11.50\00:11:14.94
and it should
never be forbidden.
00:11:14.97\00:11:17.17
And Boko Haram,
ISIS, whatever it might be
00:11:17.21\00:11:20.11
that fights against this,
it's putting itself against
00:11:20.14\00:11:23.08
an elemental
principle of the universe.
00:11:23.11\00:11:28.18
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:11:28.22\00:11:31.02