Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000389A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is the program bringing you updates, 00:30 news, analysis, and all around information 00:33 on a topic that you must pay attention 00:35 to religious liberty. 00:37 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine. 00:40 And my guest Tina Ramirez, 00:42 founder and president of Hardwired. 00:46 Every time I meet you and even think about you 00:49 and read your articles, 00:50 I know that there's so much going on in your life. 00:52 Yeah. 00:54 And a lot of the articles you've sent 00:56 have been about work that you 00:57 and your organization have accomplished 00:58 and they're ongoing for that matter in Iraq, 01:02 the center of recent conflict. 01:04 But let's go a little bit broader. 01:06 You know, there are many troublesome 01:08 aspects to modern life, 01:09 the world is really a bubbling cauldron. 01:12 But this radicalism that often derives from Islam 01:17 is not just confined to the Middle East, is it? 01:19 No. 01:20 One of the most nefarious groups is called Boko Haram 01:24 and it's hard to get to the meaning of it, 01:26 but Haram means forbidden 01:27 and I think it's basically westernization 01:29 or education forbidden. 01:31 Right. 01:33 It's a very retrograde sort of a movement. 01:36 If you had any contact with them 01:38 and I think you've been to... 01:40 No, thankfully I haven't had contact with Boko Haram, but... 01:42 No, you don't, I mean... closer view of them. 01:45 No, no, not contact. No, no. 01:46 Yeah, definitely I've seen the effects a bit, 01:48 but thank you so much for having me, Lincoln, 01:49 and for being here with everybody at Liberty in... 01:53 It's, you know, Hardwired provides education training 01:57 in many parts of the world 01:59 to ensure that there's local leadership 02:01 for religious freedom. 02:03 And we have so many advocates for this right here, 02:05 but unfortunately in many parts 02:06 of the world they don't have advocates 02:08 and so they don't have someone to defend 02:09 their rights or help them access justice. 02:12 And that is certainly true in Nigeria today. 02:15 Hardwired has worked in Iraq and, 02:17 you know, other parts of the world, 02:18 but Nigeria is one of those hot spots 02:20 where it's one of the largest 02:23 growing populations in the world. 02:24 It's a very religious country, it's one of the most important 02:27 economic countries in North Africa, 02:29 so it's really a linchpin country 02:30 for the African continent. 02:32 And yet, it hangs in the balance 02:34 when it comes to religious freedom 02:36 and religious conflict. 02:37 And so, if we can establish leaders there 02:40 that will support this freedom, 02:41 we have the possibility of really changing 02:44 the trajectory of the whole African continent. 02:46 Yeah. 02:47 Yes, because this is a very 02:48 pivotal country in all of Africa. 02:50 Mm-hmm. Yeah. 02:51 And as you were going through the situation again, 02:55 it reminded me that I don't think 02:56 I would define Nigeria's problems 02:58 as predominantly religious. 03:00 Mm-hmm. 03:01 It's a huge economic promise 03:06 that sort of gone wrong. 03:08 And as it's gone wrong, 03:09 I think it's then sort of unsettled 03:12 different religious communities. 03:13 And in some ways I think this Boko Haram 03:16 is a reaction to what they see as Westernization going wrong. 03:21 Well, I think that the situation in Nigeria 03:22 is a lot more complicated than that, 03:24 you know, obviously... Oh, yes. 03:26 I'm trying to simplify it. 03:27 I mean, than we could imagine like it's not an easy thing 03:30 to dissect but. 03:32 There certainly, 03:33 there is that many people want to see 03:35 it as not a religious conflict, 03:37 it's just an ethnic conflict, 03:39 or a tribal issue, but you really... 03:40 It is very difficult to separate religion from it 03:43 especially when, for your viewers 03:46 that don't know the country is largely split 03:49 between a predominately Muslim north... 03:51 And they've had a civil war in the past. 03:53 And a predominantly Christian south, 03:56 and so when they emerge from the civil war, 03:58 one of the more recent presidents took Nigeria 04:03 into the Organization of Islamic Conference in 04:07 and allowed certain Islamic laws into the country. 04:11 And then in 12 of the northern states 04:14 they've all adopted criminal Sharia law, 04:16 so this is where you can amputate the hands et cetera, 04:19 so it's very criminal Sharia. 04:20 But this has been going on... 04:22 This predates Boko Haram, so you have this bifurcation 04:25 between the north and the south 04:27 that falls largely along religious lines. 04:30 And once again there's a fear in the north 04:33 that the Christians will take over the country 04:35 or the tribes in the south 04:36 which are predominantly Christian will take over. 04:38 There's a fear in the south that the Muslim tribes 04:40 in the north will do the same thing 04:42 and so there's this constant fighting 04:44 over power in the country. 04:46 And tell me if I'm wrong it seems to me 04:47 that oil was the liquid 04:52 that got it all going, wasn't it? 04:54 Well, there's definitely the problem of oil 04:56 and resources in the south 04:57 and the desertification of the north, 04:59 and so that the deserts in Africa are encroaching 05:03 on the northern areas which is pushing 05:05 a lot of those communities into the south. 05:07 But it would be... 05:10 It would not be correct to say that just those things 05:13 are causing the conflict. 05:14 We have seen in the last 0 to 20 years 05:17 significantly large scale attacks 05:19 where Muslim communities will attack 05:23 like a Christian school in the south 05:25 and slaughter thousands of students. 05:27 I'm trying to think what they call as fighters, 05:28 there is a very unique term. 05:30 Well, over... there's different, I mean, 05:31 there's the Fulani herdsmen, I don't know if that's what 05:33 you're thinking up with their... 05:35 Overtime there's been, yeah, there have been differences 05:37 or just vigilante attacks that... 05:38 like the mob attacks that have happened 05:41 in the last like 10, 20 years. 05:42 But in the last decade we've seen 05:44 in the rise of Boko Haram 05:45 and Americans will be familiar with this, because... 05:48 And I think it's around 2008 we had the underwear bomber. 05:51 It's a Nigerian that tried to board a plane 05:53 and come to United States and bomb, 05:56 detonate a bomb over the United States 05:57 which didn't happen thankfully. 05:59 But he was from Nigeria, and I think that exposed 06:01 this rising extremism problem that was... 06:04 and terrorism problem that was occurring within. 06:06 There was really being incubated 06:08 within Nigeria that threatened the west. 06:11 But that did emerge into 06:14 what we now know as Boko Haram 06:16 which is a terrorist group that has consolidated 06:19 a lot of power in the north of Nigeria 06:22 and that has attacked this idea of Westernization. 06:25 And I think where they really came 06:26 to the attention of news media 06:29 in the west was about four years ago 06:31 when they abducted hundreds of girls, 06:33 right, remember? 06:35 Yeah, yeah. 06:36 From a school and then they were sold and essentially 06:38 slavery and married of and many of them 06:42 were Christian girls and turned into Islamic brides. 06:44 Yeah, and it was horrifying, the "Bring Back Our Girls" 06:47 slogan and the Chibok girls out of this one school 06:50 over 200 of them that were enslaved. 06:52 And sadly some of them are still enslaved 06:55 and some of them have come back, 06:56 but there's a lot of 07:00 just unfortunate treatment of these girls 07:05 in the way that in society where they're not accepted. 07:07 Some of them are coming back with children or with, 07:11 you know, diseases or medical problems, 07:13 it's very sad. 07:14 But the larger problem is really that in the north 07:17 you have a growing terrorism problem that has been able 07:21 to appeal to a lot of the states 07:24 in the north that wanted to increase 07:27 their authority over the populous. 07:29 And it's... 07:30 the northern states are not all Muslim, 07:32 they're predominately Muslim. 07:34 So you have some states that might be 70% Muslim 07:35 and 30% Christian or 60% Muslim 07:38 and 40% Christian so they're still diverse. 07:41 But what's happened is that the governments 07:43 of those northern states have consolidated power 07:45 under Islamic law which has been bad 07:48 for everyone and for many of the people 07:49 not just for the Christians, 07:51 because you have many Muslims that don't understand 07:55 the laws that are being prosecuted 07:57 under in Sharia courts that are losing their rights 07:59 and their freedom. 08:01 And it's creating an environment of fear, 08:02 of intolerance, of impunity, of injustice, 08:05 so it's very terrifying for everyone. 08:06 Sharia is pretty much rough justice 08:08 and it's sort of traditional Islamic cultural ways 08:12 of dealing with things, 08:14 but they're not all hard and fast laws, 08:16 they are just like accretion of things from. 08:20 Yeah, so Nigeria is very complicated 08:21 when it comes to the law, 08:23 but every northern state has its own legal system. 08:26 So there's 20 states in the north 08:28 which includes Abuja and the laws are complicated, 08:34 so you've got indigenous tribal leaders 08:36 that are actually the people 08:38 with some of the most power in the northern states. 08:41 And you have states 08:42 that are actually very open to freedom. 08:46 Places like Sokoto 08:47 and there's a lot of movement there, 08:52 but overall you definitely see a trend where there's a closing 08:57 to freedom and a fear of the south 09:00 and of Christians in particular. 09:02 You know, a lot of the news report 09:04 out of that area tried to blame 09:06 weak central government, do you think... 09:09 Oh, absolutely, you know, 09:10 the central government is part of the problem. 09:11 I mean, every election it alternates 09:15 between a northern president and the southern president, 09:17 and that typically also alternates 09:19 between then a Muslim or a Christian, 09:21 and so it just reinforces this religious 09:23 division within the country. 09:24 But in addition to that, and there's major corruption 09:30 in the south and in the government, 09:32 there's major in efficiency in the government, 09:34 I mean it is the one country 09:36 that I've been to where nothing makes sense. 09:39 Getting a visa, getting out of the airport, getting, 09:41 you know, driving like nothing makes sense. 09:44 And so it's a very difficult climate to work in, 09:46 but in that context we know that there... 09:49 And there have been attacks against Muslims too 09:51 in I think Yoruba or some of the other states 09:53 in the middle belt. 09:56 And then the government has come in with Boko Haram 09:59 and they've almost tried to push back against Boko Haram 10:04 but in some ways they've actually overreached 10:06 and it caused a lot of tension 10:08 and too many attacks on the community. 10:09 So it's definitely a tense complicated situation. 10:13 No, and it's not getting better, is it? 10:15 It's probably... 10:16 Solidified. No, it's not getting better. 10:18 But over 90% of the attacks in the north, you know, 10:22 where Fulani herdsmen are attacking people. 10:24 They say it's because of desertification, 10:27 but really those attacks 10:28 are on Christian minority communities. 10:31 And so there is a religious dimension to the conflict 10:33 that needs to be addressed. 10:35 A lot of what we see in Nigeria 10:37 when I was just there a few months ago 10:39 and I was there prior to Boko Haram as well 10:41 and I've held hearings on this in Congress. 10:43 So in the last, you know, ten years that we've been 10:45 looking at this situation we've seen that, 10:49 there's really just an ignorance 10:50 in the society, a lack of education 10:51 about what their rights are. 10:53 What the Constitution says, because the constitution 10:56 of Nigeria actually protects religious freedom. 10:59 The problem then is that when state laws contradict it 11:02 and then because even in the Sharia states, 11:06 if you're not a Muslim you don't have to accept 11:08 the jurisdiction of the Sharia court. 11:10 But most of the Christians 11:12 or indigenous people of indigenous religions 11:14 don't know that and so they're taken 11:16 to the courts and they're harassed into, 11:21 you know, accepting the jurisdiction of the court, 11:23 but if they knew that all they had to say is we do not accept 11:26 the jurisdiction of this court. 11:27 I didn't know that that's petty thing to think. 11:29 That's all they have to say, just one word or one sentence, 11:31 and then they would actually have to go somewhere else 11:33 and that would protect a lot of freedoms. 11:35 But on top of just that, you have an entrenched system 11:39 of discrimination, impunity, 11:41 and so those are some of the things 11:43 that Hardwired is trying to educate. 11:46 Yeah, so educations have been okay, 11:47 but in this case particularly 11:50 Boko Haram is against education. 11:52 So this, even at this most basic level 11:55 you've got to push back. 11:56 It's true, but unless the populace is educated 11:59 on what the rights are, and in how to overcome 12:01 the fears of one another, they won't be able to overcome 12:04 the entire ideologies of ISIS or of Boko Haram. 12:08 And so that's what we're doing is we're basically creating 12:11 for our soil where people can then, 12:13 when they hear these entire ideas, 12:16 they have a filter for it that they don't currently have. 12:18 Throwing an interesting idea, 12:20 because it's implicit in what you're saying 12:22 that in this country education is needed, 12:25 generally as well as specifically on freedom 12:28 and religion and so on. 12:31 But even in North America like Seventh-day Adventist 12:35 and within our religious liberties situation, 12:38 we will defend Adventist in the workplace, 12:41 but it's very obvious that most of that defense 12:44 is at the lower socioeconomic level. 12:47 Somebody who has more education and higher level employment 12:52 is not as affected by this sort of stuff, 12:55 so over and over again I see a direct tie up between 13:00 the education level of a culture 13:04 which tends to solve this 13:05 and move it away from this village. 13:09 You know, to use a cliché, you know, 13:10 sort of a village culture with tribalism and prejudice 13:14 and animus, not animus but, you know, 13:17 a basic sort of a religious practice. 13:20 You don't see that the more that the society is educated. 13:24 Well, it's in its access to justice. 13:25 Now, the answer can't be Westernization, 13:27 because I know a lot of them are rejecting Westernization, 13:29 but it seems to be in educating you're doing a great job, 13:33 but there's a need for the whole country 13:36 to be educated away from a false social attitude. 13:40 That's really what's going on here. 13:42 It's everyone, I think that's the important point, 13:44 is that it's not just Muslims or Christians that it's really, 13:47 it's a national education... 13:49 And poverty, and along with poverty even in the US, 13:51 you know, I see people begging on the streets. 13:54 It's tied up to lack of knowledge 13:56 because there are support structures 13:58 for unemployed people, 13:59 they tend not to know that so they end up, you know, 14:02 stopping you at the street lights. 14:03 So there's a knowledge component 14:05 and knowledge removes people from that problem. 14:08 Yeah. 14:09 And the Bible says that for lack of knowledge, 14:11 my people are perishing. 14:13 We'll take a break and be here back shortly. 14:14 Stay with us. |
Revised 2018-03-22