Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
bringing you updates,
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news, analysis, and
all around information
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on a topic that
you must pay attention
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to religious liberty.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine.
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And my guest Tina Ramirez,
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founder and
president of Hardwired.
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Every time I meet you
and even think about you
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and read your articles,
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I know that there's so
much going on in your life.
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Yeah.
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And a lot of the
articles you've sent
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have been about work that you
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and your
organization have accomplished
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and they're ongoing
for that matter in Iraq,
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the center of recent conflict.
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But let's go a
little bit broader.
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You know, there
are many troublesome
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aspects to modern life,
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the world is really
a bubbling cauldron.
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But this radicalism
that often derives from Islam
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is not just confined
to the Middle East, is it?
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No.
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One of the most nefarious
groups is called Boko Haram
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and it's hard to get
to the meaning of it,
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but Haram means forbidden
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and I think it's
basically westernization
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or education forbidden.
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Right.
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It's a very
retrograde sort of a movement.
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If you had any contact with them
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and I think you've been to...
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No, thankfully I haven't had
contact with Boko Haram, but...
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No, you don't, I
mean... closer view of them.
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No, no, not contact. No, no.
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Yeah, definitely I've
seen the effects a bit,
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but thank you so much
for having me, Lincoln,
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and for being here with
everybody at Liberty in...
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It's, you know, Hardwired
provides education training
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in many parts of the world
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to ensure that
there's local leadership
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for religious freedom.
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And we have so many
advocates for this right here,
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but unfortunately in many parts
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of the world they
don't have advocates
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and so they don't
have someone to defend
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their rights or
help them access justice.
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And that is certainly
true in Nigeria today.
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Hardwired has
worked in Iraq and,
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you know, other
parts of the world,
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but Nigeria is
one of those hot spots
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where it's one of the largest
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growing
populations in the world.
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It's a very religious country,
it's one of the most important
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economic
countries in North Africa,
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so it's really
a linchpin country
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for the African continent.
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And yet, it hangs in the balance
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when it comes to
religious freedom
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and religious conflict.
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And so, if we can
establish leaders there
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that will support this freedom,
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we have the
possibility of really changing
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the trajectory of the
whole African continent.
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Yeah.
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Yes, because this is a very
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pivotal country
in all of Africa.
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Mm-hmm. Yeah.
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And as you were going
through the situation again,
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it reminded me
that I don't think
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I would define
Nigeria's problems
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as predominantly religious.
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Mm-hmm.
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It's a huge economic promise
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that sort of gone wrong.
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And as it's gone wrong,
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I think it's
then sort of unsettled
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different religious communities.
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And in some ways I
think this Boko Haram
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is a reaction to what they see
as Westernization going wrong.
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Well, I think that
the situation in Nigeria
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is a lot more
complicated than that,
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you know, obviously... Oh, yes.
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I'm trying to simplify it.
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I mean, than we could imagine
like it's not an easy thing
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to dissect but.
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There certainly,
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there is that
many people want to see
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it as not a religious conflict,
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it's just an ethnic conflict,
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or a tribal
issue, but you really...
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It is very difficult to
separate religion from it
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especially
when, for your viewers
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that don't know the
country is largely split
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between a
predominately Muslim north...
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And they've had a
civil war in the past.
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And a
predominantly Christian south,
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and so when they
emerge from the civil war,
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one of the more recent
presidents took Nigeria
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into the Organization
of Islamic Conference in
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and allowed certain
Islamic laws into the country.
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And then in 12 of
the northern states
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they've all adopted
criminal Sharia law,
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so this is where you can
amputate the hands et cetera,
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so it's very criminal Sharia.
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But this has been going on...
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This predates Boko Haram,
so you have this bifurcation
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between the north and the south
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that falls largely
along religious lines.
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And once again
there's a fear in the north
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that the Christians
will take over the country
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or the tribes in the south
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which are predominantly
Christian will take over.
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There's a fear in the
south that the Muslim tribes
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in the north
will do the same thing
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and so there's
this constant fighting
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over power in the country.
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And tell me if I'm
wrong it seems to me
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that oil was the liquid
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that got it all
going, wasn't it?
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Well, there's
definitely the problem of oil
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and resources in the south
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and the
desertification of the north,
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and so that the deserts
in Africa are encroaching
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on the northern
areas which is pushing
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a lot of those
communities into the south.
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But it would be...
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It would not be correct
to say that just those things
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are causing the conflict.
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We have seen in
the last 0 to 20 years
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significantly
large scale attacks
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where Muslim
communities will attack
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like a Christian
school in the south
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and slaughter
thousands of students.
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I'm trying to think
what they call as fighters,
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there is a very unique term.
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Well, over...
there's different, I mean,
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there's the Fulani herdsmen,
I don't know if that's what
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you're thinking up with their...
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Overtime there's been, yeah,
there have been differences
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or just
vigilante attacks that...
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like the mob
attacks that have happened
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in the last like 10, 20 years.
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But in the last
decade we've seen
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in the rise of Boko Haram
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and Americans will be
familiar with this, because...
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And I think it's around 2008
we had the underwear bomber.
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It's a Nigerian that
tried to board a plane
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and come to
United States and bomb,
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detonate a bomb
over the United States
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which didn't happen thankfully.
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But he was from Nigeria,
and I think that exposed
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this rising
extremism problem that was...
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and terrorism problem
that was occurring within.
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There was really being incubated
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within Nigeria that
threatened the west.
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But that did emerge into
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what we now know as Boko Haram
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which is a terrorist
group that has consolidated
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a lot of power in
the north of Nigeria
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and that has attacked
this idea of Westernization.
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And I think
where they really came
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to the attention of news media
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in the west was
about four years ago
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when they
abducted hundreds of girls,
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right, remember?
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Yeah, yeah.
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From a school and then
they were sold and essentially
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slavery and
married of and many of them
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were Christian girls and
turned into Islamic brides.
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Yeah, and it was horrifying,
the "Bring Back Our Girls"
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slogan and the Chibok
girls out of this one school
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over 200 of them
that were enslaved.
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And sadly some of
them are still enslaved
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and some of them have come back,
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but there's a lot of
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just unfortunate
treatment of these girls
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in the way that in society
where they're not accepted.
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Some of them are coming
back with children or with,
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you know, diseases
or medical problems,
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it's very sad.
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But the larger problem
is really that in the north
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you have a growing terrorism
problem that has been able
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to appeal to a lot of the states
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in the north that
wanted to increase
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their authority
over the populous.
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And it's...
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the northern
states are not all Muslim,
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they're predominately Muslim.
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So you have some states
that might be 70% Muslim
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and 30% Christian or 60% Muslim
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and 40% Christian so
they're still diverse.
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But what's happened
is that the governments
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of those northern
states have consolidated power
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under Islamic law
which has been bad
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for everyone and
for many of the people
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not just for the Christians,
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because you have many
Muslims that don't understand
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the laws that
are being prosecuted
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under in Sharia courts
that are losing their rights
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and their freedom.
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And it's creating
an environment of fear,
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of intolerance, of
impunity, of injustice,
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so it's very
terrifying for everyone.
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Sharia is pretty
much rough justice
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and it's sort of traditional
Islamic cultural ways
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of dealing with things,
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but they're not
all hard and fast laws,
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they are just like
accretion of things from.
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Yeah, so Nigeria
is very complicated
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when it comes to the law,
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but every northern state
has its own legal system.
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So there's 20
states in the north
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which includes Abuja and
the laws are complicated,
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so you've got
indigenous tribal leaders
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that are actually the people
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with some of the most
power in the northern states.
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And you have states
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that are actually
very open to freedom.
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Places like Sokoto
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and there's a lot
of movement there,
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but overall you definitely see
a trend where there's a closing
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to freedom and a
fear of the south
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and of Christians in particular.
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You know, a lot
of the news report
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out of that area tried to blame
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weak central
government, do you think...
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Oh, absolutely, you know,
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the central government
is part of the problem.
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I mean, every
election it alternates
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between a northern president
and the southern president,
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and that
typically also alternates
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between then a
Muslim or a Christian,
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and so it just
reinforces this religious
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division within the country.
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But in addition to that,
and there's major corruption
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in the south and
in the government,
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there's major in
efficiency in the government,
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I mean it is the one country
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that I've been to
where nothing makes sense.
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Getting a visa, getting
out of the airport, getting,
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you know, driving
like nothing makes sense.
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And so it's a very
difficult climate to work in,
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but in that context
we know that there...
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And there have been
attacks against Muslims too
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in I think Yoruba or
some of the other states
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in the middle belt.
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And then the government
has come in with Boko Haram
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and they've almost tried to
push back against Boko Haram
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but in some ways
they've actually overreached
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and it caused a lot of tension
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and too many
attacks on the community.
00:10:08.04\00:10:09.84
So it's definitely a
tense complicated situation.
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No, and it's not
getting better, is it?
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It's probably...
00:10:15.11\00:10:16.61
Solidified. No,
it's not getting better.
00:10:16.64\00:10:18.48
But over 90% of the
attacks in the north, you know,
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where Fulani
herdsmen are attacking people.
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They say it's
because of desertification,
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but really those attacks
00:10:27.16\00:10:28.72
are on Christian
minority communities.
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And so there is a religious
dimension to the conflict
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that needs to be addressed.
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A lot of what we see in Nigeria
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when I was just
there a few months ago
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and I was there
prior to Boko Haram as well
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and I've held
hearings on this in Congress.
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So in the last, you
know, ten years that we've been
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looking at this
situation we've seen that,
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there's really just an ignorance
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in the society,
a lack of education
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about what their rights are.
00:10:51.98\00:10:53.82
What the Constitution
says, because the constitution
00:10:53.85\00:10:56.18
of Nigeria actually
protects religious freedom.
00:10:56.22\00:10:59.25
The problem then is that
when state laws contradict it
00:10:59.29\00:11:02.32
and then because
even in the Sharia states,
00:11:02.36\00:11:06.49
if you're not a Muslim
you don't have to accept
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the jurisdiction
of the Sharia court.
00:11:08.36\00:11:10.67
But most of the Christians
00:11:10.70\00:11:12.03
or indigenous people
of indigenous religions
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don't know that
and so they're taken
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to the courts and
they're harassed into,
00:11:16.57\00:11:21.28
you know, accepting the
jurisdiction of the court,
00:11:21.31\00:11:23.61
but if they knew that all they
had to say is we do not accept
00:11:23.65\00:11:26.41
the jurisdiction of this court.
00:11:26.45\00:11:27.78
I didn't know that
that's petty thing to think.
00:11:27.82\00:11:29.15
That's all they have to say,
just one word or one sentence,
00:11:29.18\00:11:31.39
and then they would actually
have to go somewhere else
00:11:31.42\00:11:33.89
and that would
protect a lot of freedoms.
00:11:33.92\00:11:35.52
But on top of just that,
you have an entrenched system
00:11:35.56\00:11:39.13
of discrimination, impunity,
00:11:39.16\00:11:41.40
and so those are
some of the things
00:11:41.43\00:11:43.13
that Hardwired is
trying to educate.
00:11:43.16\00:11:46.53
Yeah, so
educations have been okay,
00:11:46.57\00:11:47.94
but in this case particularly
00:11:47.97\00:11:50.04
Boko Haram is against education.
00:11:50.07\00:11:52.37
So this, even at
this most basic level
00:11:52.41\00:11:55.08
you've got to push back.
00:11:55.11\00:11:56.54
It's true, but unless
the populace is educated
00:11:56.58\00:11:59.41
on what the rights
are, and in how to overcome
00:11:59.45\00:12:01.72
the fears of one another,
they won't be able to overcome
00:12:01.75\00:12:04.75
the entire ideologies
of ISIS or of Boko Haram.
00:12:04.79\00:12:08.62
And so that's what we're doing
is we're basically creating
00:12:08.66\00:12:11.56
for our soil
where people can then,
00:12:11.59\00:12:13.93
when they hear
these entire ideas,
00:12:13.96\00:12:16.26
they have a filter for it
that they don't currently have.
00:12:16.30\00:12:18.73
Throwing an interesting idea,
00:12:18.77\00:12:20.10
because it's
implicit in what you're saying
00:12:20.14\00:12:22.24
that in this
country education is needed,
00:12:22.27\00:12:25.44
generally as well as
specifically on freedom
00:12:25.47\00:12:28.71
and religion and so on.
00:12:28.74\00:12:31.55
But even in North America
like Seventh-day Adventist
00:12:31.58\00:12:35.78
and within our
religious liberties situation,
00:12:35.82\00:12:38.15
we will defend
Adventist in the workplace,
00:12:38.19\00:12:41.06
but it's very obvious
that most of that defense
00:12:41.09\00:12:44.63
is at the lower
socioeconomic level.
00:12:44.66\00:12:47.70
Somebody who has more education
and higher level employment
00:12:47.73\00:12:52.70
is not as affected
by this sort of stuff,
00:12:52.73\00:12:55.47
so over and over again I
see a direct tie up between
00:12:55.50\00:13:00.91
the education level of a culture
00:13:00.94\00:13:04.05
which tends to solve this
00:13:04.08\00:13:05.91
and move it away
from this village.
00:13:05.95\00:13:08.98
You know, to use
a cliché, you know,
00:13:09.02\00:13:10.65
sort of a village culture
with tribalism and prejudice
00:13:10.69\00:13:14.32
and animus, not
animus but, you know,
00:13:14.36\00:13:17.63
a basic sort of a
religious practice.
00:13:17.66\00:13:20.46
You don't see that the more
that the society is educated.
00:13:20.50\00:13:23.97
Well, it's in its
access to justice.
00:13:24.00\00:13:25.47
Now, the answer
can't be Westernization,
00:13:25.50\00:13:27.47
because I know a lot of them
are rejecting Westernization,
00:13:27.50\00:13:29.80
but it seems to be in educating
you're doing a great job,
00:13:29.84\00:13:33.58
but there's a need
for the whole country
00:13:33.61\00:13:36.34
to be educated away
from a false social attitude.
00:13:36.38\00:13:40.28
That's really
what's going on here.
00:13:40.32\00:13:41.98
It's everyone, I think
that's the important point,
00:13:42.02\00:13:44.82
is that it's not just Muslims
or Christians that it's really,
00:13:44.85\00:13:47.56
it's a national education...
00:13:47.59\00:13:49.06
And poverty, and along
with poverty even in the US,
00:13:49.09\00:13:51.86
you know, I see people
begging on the streets.
00:13:51.89\00:13:54.20
It's tied up to
lack of knowledge
00:13:54.23\00:13:56.26
because there are
support structures
00:13:56.30\00:13:58.03
for unemployed people,
00:13:58.07\00:13:59.40
they tend not to know
that so they end up, you know,
00:13:59.43\00:14:02.10
stopping you at
the street lights.
00:14:02.14\00:14:03.74
So there's a knowledge component
00:14:03.77\00:14:05.44
and knowledge removes
people from that problem.
00:14:05.47\00:14:07.98
Yeah.
00:14:08.01\00:14:09.34
And the Bible says
that for lack of knowledge,
00:14:09.38\00:14:11.41
my people are perishing.
00:14:11.45\00:14:13.05
We'll take a break
and be here back shortly.
00:14:13.08\00:14:14.95
Stay with us.
00:14:14.98\00:14:16.32