Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000388B
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00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:06 Before the break with guest Tina Ramirez, 00:09 we were solving the problems 00:10 of the Middle East and Syria in particular. 00:12 Trying. 00:13 But recognizing that there's definitely 00:15 a strong religious component. 00:16 This is not a secular conflict primarily, is it? 00:21 No. It might have began that way. 00:23 Right, and I think for a long time, 00:26 the United States in particular, 00:28 but a lot of people in the West have miscalculate 00:30 the religious dimension of the conflict 00:31 in the Middle East, 00:33 and in particular in Syria and Iraq. 00:35 And to really address 00:36 these recurrence cycles of violence 00:38 that we see there that are fueling 00:39 so much terrorism in the world, 00:41 you can't ignore religious grievances 00:45 or this religious bigotry 00:47 or extremism, intolerance, fear, 00:51 you just can't ignore it. 00:52 It can't be suppressed, and it can't be fueled. 00:56 And so, one of the things 00:58 that Hardwired does in that region 01:00 is provide education training 01:02 to teach leaders of all different factions 01:04 whether they're Islamic brother, 01:06 Muslim brotherhood leaders or, you know, you name it, 01:09 across the gamut of religious communities 01:11 that there's a space for freedom of religion 01:15 in order to have a society 01:16 where you can express your freedom 01:19 and not live in fear of somebody else taking 01:21 that freedom away. 01:22 I think it's not just an ideal. 01:24 That should be the reality of human existence. 01:25 The standard. Exactly. 01:26 But how do you deal in the Middle East, 01:30 like everywhere else? 01:32 There's many people that are born into Islam, 01:35 you know, that they don't know a lot about it, 01:36 they go through the emotions and that... 01:38 But Islam itself, in the Quran and all of the close 01:44 theological interpretation insist pretty strongly 01:48 that the religion is all encompassing, 01:51 that there is not a secular state 01:52 and then the church here. 01:54 So separation of church and state 01:57 is not just a bad reality with Islam. 02:00 It really goes to the root of its thinking about reality, 02:03 doesn't it? 02:04 How do we deal with that? 02:06 We definitely a see a trend in the world. 02:08 That's not just in Muslim communities 02:10 but in Hindu communities, 02:11 and even in some Christian communities 02:13 across the world 02:14 where people associate their identity 02:15 with their religion. 02:17 Ah, yes. 02:18 And so, then because 02:19 this is so tied into their identity, 02:22 there's a fear of losing your sovereignty as a nation 02:27 or your power as a nation, your identity as nation 02:29 when your religion is threatened, 02:32 where the dominant religion in a country is threatened, 02:34 and so, we see this fueling a lot of conflict, 02:36 but ultimately what it comes down to is fear, 02:38 you know, we see this in America too. 02:40 We have Christian majorities are... 02:42 Not majorities necessarily, 02:43 but, you know, traditionally they have been majorities 02:46 that are fearful of losing position 02:49 of prominence in the community 02:50 when the society becomes more secular. 02:52 And so, there's this pendulum that swings of overreacting, 02:56 and you have to be very careful 02:57 with that in any country and society, 02:59 not just in Islamic ones. 03:02 It's a trend that we see everywhere. 03:04 And so, what we do as Hardwired 03:05 when we go in and we work with leaders, diverse leaders, 03:08 so we bring together in Iraq, 03:10 for instance, the Christian, Yazidi, 03:12 the Baha'i, the atheist, the Zoroastrian, the Muslim. 03:16 See, you've got every one in the same room. 03:18 They're all afraid of each other, 03:20 but somehow they need to learn to live together, 03:22 you know, to work out it out, and they were glued together, 03:25 or else they don't have a country. 03:26 They're just going to descend into constant chaos. 03:27 And maybe it's got so bad that they have to see that, 03:30 you're right... 03:31 Well, yeah, when you hit rock bottom, 03:33 there's only one way, up which is good, 03:35 so in Iraq, they've definitely gone there. 03:37 And what we've seen is amazing 03:38 because we see these communities 03:40 through the training program 03:42 we do where we bring them together, 03:43 and they are forced to face their fears 03:46 of one another, their misconceptions, 03:48 their prejudices, their bias, and work through those, 03:51 and begin to understand the value of religious freedom 03:55 for one another 03:56 that their rights are tied together, 03:58 that they can have 03:59 the freedom of belief and expression 04:01 unless you have yours. 04:02 Even if those two beliefs contradict one another 04:06 that there is a right to be wrong 04:08 in a public space where freedom exists. 04:11 And it's amazing that in a society like Iraq 04:14 where we see so much conflict that that's actually happening. 04:17 We have a core group of 25 leaders 04:20 that are doing amazing things across Iraq 04:22 to defend religious freedom. 04:24 We don't even see that here in our country. 04:27 So in some ways, it actually brings me hope 04:30 because I wish 04:31 that we could see that in America, 04:32 like we see it in Iraq, 04:34 and it's not a perfect place or situation, 04:36 but it's, you know, it's like I shared with you 04:39 before about the Muslim leader, 04:42 the Muslim judge who, 04:44 when ISIS beheaded his youngest brother 04:46 said to me, 04:47 "Tina, this is the fate 04:49 that awaits every person in Iraq 04:50 if we don't stand up 04:52 for religious freedom for everyone." 04:53 Oh, no, they're faced with stark choices, 04:54 there's no question. 04:56 And you visit there enough, of course, 04:57 to be very perceptive on the religious situation, 05:00 what role does 05:02 the tribal loyalties play into this 05:03 'cause this is not immaterial to what's happening there? 05:06 Because people see themselves as a religious community 05:09 but also with these tribal identities, 05:12 that community can be quite small 05:14 and definitely marked. 05:16 We have tribalism, and then you have just, 05:18 you know, in general, more overreaching ethnic, 05:20 loyalties of the Kurds and the Sunni and the Shia 05:23 and different, somewhat different... 05:24 Bit like Saddam, was to Tikritis, 05:26 which was largely 05:27 the semi-tribal community based on Tigris. 05:32 Yeah, in Iraq, I would say 05:33 that those two dimensions are always... 05:38 They're always at work, so you've got... 05:39 You kind of wish of three things, 05:41 you know, when you're facing constantly 05:42 that the race, ethnicity, the religion. 05:44 And so, you're always seeing that, 05:47 but I think at the core of it, 05:50 without a fundamental baseline of respect for the freedom 05:55 of conscience of one another with... 05:58 People are constantly living in fear 06:00 of the motives of the other person 06:01 in that society because for generations, 06:04 they've been attacking one another and trying to... 06:07 One group's trying to put, 06:08 you know, assert authority and power over the other. 06:11 The Shias over the Sunnis, the Turkmen over the Arabs, 06:14 you know, you name it, the Kurds over whoever. 06:18 And so, until you really address those fears 06:21 that are underlying a lot 06:23 of the reoccurring cycles of violence, 06:24 you'll never really get to the root 06:26 cause of the problem. 06:27 I remember on a beach in Bermuda meeting 06:31 this fellow and his family, 06:32 and they said that they had come from Lebanon 06:35 and asked them why they moved and so on. 06:37 They weren't living in Bermuda, 06:40 but they were visiting from the US. 06:43 And he said... 06:45 I think they were Eastern Orthodox, 06:46 but it got so... 06:48 They were Christians, it got so bad 06:51 that when they send the kids off to school, 06:52 they get on the bus, 06:54 and the bus driver would ask them their names. 06:55 Now you could... 06:56 They could tell instantly 06:58 from their names they were Christians. 06:59 Right, where they're from. 07:01 And he said, that made us feel for what would happen 07:02 to our children on the way to school. 07:04 They've been identified clearly. 07:06 So that's the level of suspicion 07:08 and fear in some of those countries. 07:10 When Saddam fueled that first. 07:11 And, of course, Lebanon's been 07:12 through the civil wars in their lifetime, too. 07:15 Yeah, and one of the things 07:16 that we've seen like in Lebanon, 07:19 for instance, 07:21 is when we're working with teachers there 07:22 is that they often say, "We all have great freedom. 07:25 We all just live separately. 07:27 So the Christians live here, the Jews live here." 07:29 But living separately is not... 07:32 It's not freedom. 07:33 It means that you're not actively engaging one another 07:35 because you're afraid of one another still. 07:37 And fear can be one of the greatest factors 07:40 to cause conflict, and so, unless you really address that, 07:44 it's going to reoccur and a lot of people 07:47 probably don't know this, but Baghdad and Iraq... 07:52 The cities in Iraq 07:53 are the epicenter for one of the greatest conflicts 07:56 within Islam between the Sunnis and Shias. 07:58 I mean, the two family factions that were at war. 08:02 Well, it's all over the succession, wasn't it? 08:04 So it is all over succession, so I mean, you have 08:08 one of the greatest battles within Islam 08:11 which created, you know, these two factions occurred 08:14 within Iraq, and it's still is an under current 08:19 that you see in the conflict 08:21 between those communities and the mistrust. 08:23 Well, it's more than 08:25 an under current there, on the larger stage. 08:26 It's pretty big. 08:28 Saudi Arabia is against Iran for precisely that reason. 08:29 Right, right, right, and it spills over. 08:31 But it's... 08:32 But Iraq is the place where it began, 08:34 and I don't think that that a lot of people know 08:37 that within the history of what's going on in there. 08:38 Well, Iraq is really arguably the cradle of civilization. 08:41 It is. It is. 08:43 And sadly, it's Babylon of the Bible. 08:47 The Euphrates, 08:49 and the drying up of Euphrates at the end of time. 08:52 It resonates on every level, 08:53 from history, theology, prophecy. 08:56 Yeah, we actually... 08:57 So we work with a Kurdish Muslim leader 09:00 who is very interested in 09:03 because it's just bread basket of, 09:05 you know, the Middle East and the world, 09:06 trying to bring 09:08 all the different communities back together, 09:10 and really focus on the agriculture 09:12 and on building more peaceful garden, 09:13 and a peaceful community. 09:15 With the hanging gardens of Babylon times. 09:16 Yes. Yeah, well. 09:17 No, but it's very good 09:19 that they're rebuilding a community, 09:20 rebuilding trust, not putting aside religion, 09:23 you're not trying to say 09:25 that religion's immaterial to people at all, are you? 09:27 No, I think that that's what we realized 09:29 is that in order to really address 09:31 this root conflict, root cause of the conflict, 09:34 you have to address the religious dimension of it, 09:36 and so, it's exciting to see what's happening 09:38 in Kurdistan today where they're beginning 09:40 to have an educational curriculum 09:42 that incorporates 09:43 the religious diversity of the country 09:44 and, you know, as Hardwired, we're working there 09:47 to help them implement it in a way 09:48 that teaches children to value religious freedom, 09:51 so we can see generations that will grow up 09:53 not with the animosities and the tensions of the past, 09:56 but they will grow up 09:57 with a new vision for the future 09:58 that incorporates everyone. 10:03 Whenever you speak about holy war, 10:06 it's worth remembering 10:07 that there's an in-built contradiction. 10:09 I believe unless you're talking about God's strange act, 10:13 strange and final act in dealing with evil. 10:16 There's no such thing as a holy or sanctified war. 10:20 That said, throughout the ages 10:22 and certainly during the crusades, 10:24 many people went to war 10:26 with a holy sense of fulfillment and... 10:31 That they had a contract 10:33 with God to wipe out their enemies. 10:36 Today, in the Middle East, 10:37 we're seeing a manifestation of this idea of killing 10:40 in the name of God. 10:42 It is not right, 10:44 it is not the way forward for human kind. 10:47 It is certainly nothing to do 10:50 with protecting man's innate right 10:53 and calling to worship God in the way 10:55 that his conscience requires. 10:58 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2018-04-16